Author Topic: BREAKING:2002 Memo Referred to Torture-Ineffective producing "Unreliable Info"  (Read 1169 times)

The True Adonis

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403171.html

Document: Military Agency Referred to 'Torture,' Questioned Its Effectiveness

By Peter Finn and Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, April 24, 2009; 8:20 PM
The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."



"The unintended consequence of a U.S. policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured U.S. personnel," says the document, an unsigned two-page attachment to a memo by the military's Joint Personnel Recovery Agency. Parts of the attachment, obtained in full by The Washington Post, were quoted in a Senate report on harsh interrogation released this week.

It remains unclear whether the attachment reached high-ranking officials in the Bush administration. But the document offers the clearest evidence that has come to light so far that technical advisors on the harsh interrogation methods voiced early concerns about the effectiveness of applying severe physical or psychological pressure.



The document was included among July 2002 memoranda that described severe techniques used against Americans in past conflicts and the psychological effects of such treatment. JPRA ran the military program known as Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE), which trains pilots and others to resist hostile questioning.

The cautionary attachment was forwarded to the Pentagon's Office of the General Counsel as the administration finalized the legal underpinnings of a CIA interrogation program that would sanction the use of 10 forms of coercion, including waterboarding, a technique that simulates drowning. The JPRA material was sent from the Pentagon to the CIA's acting general counsel, John A. Rizzo, and on to the Justice Department, according to testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee.

A memo dated Aug. 1, 2002, from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel authorized the use of the 10 methods against Abu Zubaida, the nom de guerre of an al-Qaeda associate captured in Pakistan in March 2002. Former intelligence officials have recently contended that Abu Zubaida provided little useful information about the organization's plans.

Senate investigators were unable to determine whether William J. Haynes II, the Pentagon's general counsel in 2002, passed the cautionary memo to Rizzo or to other Bush administration officials reviewing the CIA's proposed program.

Haynes declined to comment, as did Rizzo and the CIA. Jay S. Bybee, who as an assistant attorney general signed the Aug. 1 memo, did not respond to a request for comment.

Daniel Baumgartner, who was the JPRA's chief of staff in 2002 and transmitted the memos and attachments, said the agency "sent a lot of cautionary notes" regarding harsh techniques. "There is a difference between what we do in training and what the administration wanted the information for," he said a telephone interview yesterday. "What the administration decided to do or not to do was up to the guys dealing with offensive prisoner operations. . . . We train our own people for the worst possible outcome . . . and obviously the United States government does not torture its own people."

Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.), chairman of the Armed Services Committee, said he thinks the attachment was deliberately ignored and perhaps suppressed. Excerpts from the document appeared in a report on the treatment of detainees released this month by Levin's committee. The report says the attachment echoes JPRA warnings issued in late 2001.

"It's part of a pattern of squelching dissent," said Levin, who added that there were other instances in which internal reviews of detainee treatment were halted or undercut. "They didn't want to hear the downside."

A former administration official said the National Security Council, which was briefed repeatedly that summer on the CIA's planned interrogation program by George J. Tenet, then director of central intelligence, and agency lawyers, did not discuss the issues raised in the attachment. Tenet declined comment through a spokesman.
"That information was not brought to the attention of the principals," said the official, who was involved in deliberations on interrogation policy and spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue. "That would have been relevant. The CIA did not present with pros and cons, or points of concern. They said this was safe and effective, and there was no alternative."

THIS STORY
Document: Military Agency Referred to 'Torture,' Questioned Its Effectiveness
Memo From the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (PDF)
The Aug. 1 memo on the interrogation of Abu Zubaida draws from the JPRA's memo on psychological effects to conclude that while waterboarding constituted "a threat of imminent death," it did not cause "prolonged mental harm." Therefore, the Aug. 1 memo concluded, waterboarding "would not constitute torture within the meaning of the statute."

But the JPRA's two-page attachment, titled "Operational Issues Pertaining to the Use of Physical/Psychological Coercion in Interrogation," questioned the effectiveness of employing extreme duress to gain intelligence.

"The requirement to obtain information from an uncooperative source as quickly as possible -- in time to prevent, for example, an impending terrorist attack that could result in loss of life -- has been forwarded as a compelling argument for the use of torture," the document said. "In essence, physical and/or psychological duress are viewed as an alternative to the more time-consuming conventional interrogation process. The error inherent in this line of thinking is the assumption that, through torture, the interrogator can extract reliable and accurate information. History and a consideration of human behavior would appear to refute this assumption."



There was no consideration within the National Security Council that the planned techniques stemmed from Chinese communist practices and had been deemed torture when employed against American personnel, the former administration official said. The U.S. military prosecuted its own troops for using waterboarding in the Philippines and tried Japanese officers on war crimes charges for its use against Americans and other allied nationals during World War II.

The reasoning in the JPRA document contrasted sharply with arguments being pressed at the time by current and former military psychologists in the SERE program, including James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen, who later formed a company that became a CIA contractor advising on interrogations. Both men declined to comment on their role in formulating interrogation policy.

The JPRA attachment said the key deficiency of physical or psychological duress is the reliability and accuracy of the information gained. "A subject in pain may provide an answer, any answer, or many answers in order to get the pain to stop," it said.

In conclusion, the document said, "the application of extreme physical and/or psychological duress (torture) has some serious operational deficits, most notably the potential to result in unreliable information." The word "extreme" is underlined.

Staff researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report

MB_722

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why is this coming out now. LOL @ breaking hahaha

where were the Dems before. where were regular people???

I do think American torture is wrong.

But this current situation is only a political game.

The True Adonis

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why is this coming out now. LOL @ breaking hahaha

where were the Dems before. where were regular people???

I do think American torture is wrong.

But this current situation is only a political game.
Declassified Documents that were meant to NEVER be declassified under Republican rule.

headhuntersix

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Oddly enough..u have no right to see or hear about everything we're doing.
L

MCWAY

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Am I the only one who's noticed that, for all of TA's yakking about how "ineffective" waterboarding is, neither he nor anyone else can state exactly which interrogation method got them terroists to talk?

If waterboarding isn't ineffective, how did we end up catching Khalid Sheikh Mohammaed and others and stopped them from blowing up more stuff and killing more Americans?

The True Adonis

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Am I the only one who's noticed that, for all of TA's yakking about how "ineffective" waterboarding is, neither he nor anyone else can state exactly which interrogation method got them terroists to talk?

If waterboarding isn't ineffective, how did we end up catching Khalid Sheikh Mohammaed and others and stopped them from blowing up more stuff and killing more Americans?
Uh, Please see this thread and watch some of the video I posted that outline what techniques have worked, and which have not.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=277285.0

MCWAY

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Uh, Please see this thread and watch some of the video I posted that outline what techniques have worked, and which have not.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=277285.0


Once again, since waterboarding supposedly didn't work, WHICH TECHNIQUE got KSM and others to talk, resulting in our forces finding and stopping the plots to blow up more things and kill more people?


The True Adonis

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Once again, since waterboarding supposedly didn't work, WHICH TECHNIQUE got KSM and others to talk, resulting in our forces finding and stopping the plots to blow up more things and kill more people?


You can`t be serious.
I guess you have no clue what the FBI do and how they extract information.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB27/02-01.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_and_CIA_interrogation_manuals


http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation.htm



The True Adonis

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Once again, since waterboarding supposedly didn't work, WHICH TECHNIQUE got KSM and others to talk, resulting in our forces finding and stopping the plots to blow up more things and kill more people?


Watch this video.  He has a book on what interrogation techniques do work.


The True Adonis

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The True Adonis

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Alexander further notes that conventional interrogation methods, as opposed to the Cheney sanctioned practice of torture, produced quality intel:

The Army was still conducting interrogations according to the Guantanamo Bay model: Interrogators were nominally using the methods outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual, the interrogators' bible, but they were pushing in every way possible to bend the rules -- and often break them...I refused to participate in such practices, and a month later, I extended that prohibition to the team of interrogators I was assigned to lead. I taught the members of my unit a new methodology -- one based on building rapport with suspects, showing cultural understanding and using good old-fashioned brainpower to tease out information. I personally conducted more than 300 interrogations, and I supervised more than 1,000.


The methods my team used are not classified (they're listed in the unclassified Field Manual), but the way we used them was, I like to think, unique. We got to know our enemies, we learned to negotiate with them, and we adapted criminal investigative techniques to our work (something that the Field Manual permits, under the concept of "ruses and trickery").

It worked. Our efforts started a chain of successes that ultimately led to Zarqawi....Our new interrogation methods led to one of the war's biggest breakthroughs: We convinced one of Zarqawi's associates to give up the al-Qaeda in Iraq leader's location. On June 8, 2006, U.S. warplanes dropped two 500-pound bombs on a house where Zarqawi was meeting with other insurgent leaders.

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The Aug. 1 memo on the interrogation of Abu Zubaida draws from the JPRA's memo on psychological effects to conclude that while waterboarding constituted "a threat of imminent death," it did not cause "prolonged mental harm." Therefore, the Aug. 1 memo concluded, waterboarding "would not constitute torture within the meaning of the statute."


This smoking gun memo doesn't consider waterboarding torture.  Okaaaay. 

headhuntersix

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Ah TA before u stumbled onto "Mathew Alexander"..had u ever heard of him. I guess it makes perfect sense to u for a pilot and an Officer at the 04 level to be conducting interrogations because thats exactly how it works. I guess it makes sense that this guy did the rounds on left leaning sites, hosts and cable networks, because selling his bs book wasn't part of the agenda. This guy overstated his part in the Zarquawi take down. No 04 major/non intel/ex pilot had shit all to do with that.  He billed himself as the senior interrogator in Iraq at one point. I would imagine the host of CIA/DIA JSOC intell guys would disagree. U have no idea how the US military works nor how our spec ops or intel community conducts its business.
L

The True Adonis

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Ah TA before u stumbled onto "Mathew Alexander"..had u ever heard of him. I guess it makes perfect sense to u for a pilot and an Officer at the 04 level to be conducting interrogations because thats exactly how it works. I guess it makes sense that this guy did the rounds on left leaning sites, hosts and cable networks, because selling his bs book wasn't part of the agenda. This guy overstated his part in the Zarquawi take down. No 04 major/non intel/ex pilot had shit all to do with that.  He billed himself as the senior interrogator in Iraq at one point. I would imagine the host of CIA/DIA JSOC intell guys would disagree. U have no idea how the US military works nor how our spec ops or intel community conducts its business.
Does the FBI engage in torture when they interrogate? 

MCWAY

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Watch this video.  He has a book on what interrogation techniques do work.



Apparently, you don’t understand English too well.

I don't want a book on what supposedly does or doesn't work.

We got KSM to talk. The claim is that waterboarding is what got it done. You say otherwise.

If that's the case....WHAT OTHER TECHNIQUE GOT HIM TO SQUEAL and give up the information that we used to stop those other plots?

In other words, you need to show that we waterboarded the guy; he didn't talk; we tried something else and he DID TALK.

headhuntersix

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The KGB didn't bother to torture if they had an important prisoner. They drugged the shit out of them and got their info. The level of the drugs usually left the prisoner a radish for the rest of their lives...or at the very least incapacited them long term. TA have u ever talked to one of our interrogators. I knew two while in Afghanistan, we lost on in Kandahar. The kids who are the base line interrogators are very smart. U just don't walk off the street and become one. Once a guy can't be broken by the book or is bigger then what the regular army deals with, they turn them over to other people.
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The True Adonis

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Apparently, you don’t understand English too well.

I don't want a book on what supposedly does or doesn't work.

We got KSM to talk. The claim is that waterboarding is what got it done. You say otherwise.

If that's the case....WHAT OTHER TECHNIQUE GOT HIM TO SQUEAL and give up the information that we used to stop those other plots?

In other words, you need to show that we waterboarded the guy; he didn't talk; we tried something else and he DID TALK.
Uh,

KSM gave the information 6 MONTHS BEFORE he was waterboarded.


headhuntersix

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Yeah..says who "Mathew Alexander".....Obermann is ur source right? Wow....Ol mathew has to watch what he says, can't give away to much.
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MCWAY

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Yeah..says who "Mathew Alexander".....Obermann is ur source right? Wow....Ol mathew has to watch what he says, can't give away to much.

That's why I asked him to IDENTIFY the technique (other than waterboarding) that got KSM to talk.


BTW, Adonis, where I currently am, YouTube is BLOCKED. So, your Olbermann video-fest won't cut it.

The True Adonis

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That's why I asked him to IDENTIFY the technique (other than waterboarding) that got KSM to talk.


BTW, Adonis, where I currently am, YouTube is BLOCKED. So, your Olbermann video-fest won't cut it.
Did you not read the CIA Interrogation Manual that I posted along with the other websites?

Do you not realize that the FBI interrogates people on a daily basis without torture, thus extracting valuable information?

I don`t understand how you live in a bubble as to think torture is widespread in all law enforcement operations.

You can also examine Interpol, Scotland Yard or any other law enforcement body that uses interrogation minus torture.

The problem with you is that you literally have to be LED to water to drink because you lack the wherewithal or curiosity to pursue these subjects further.  You have to be literally spoonfed and that is the way with most people who have a hard time in separating fact versus fiction.

If you simply clicked on the CIA interrogation manual, you would learn a host of techniques that are used. 


MCWAY

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Did you not read the CIA Interrogation Manual that I posted along with the other websites?

Do you not realize that the FBI interrogates people on a daily basis without torture, thus extracting valuable information?

I don`t understand how you live in a bubble as to think torture is widespread in all law enforcement operations.

You can also examine Interpol, Scotland Yard or any other law enforcement body that uses interrogation minus torture.

The problem with you is that you literally have to be LED to water to drink because you lack the wherewithal or curiosity to pursue these subjects further.  You have to be literally spoonfed and that is the way with most people who have a hard time in separating fact versus fiction.

If you simply clicked on the CIA interrogation manual, you would learn a host of techniques that are used. 



Lost in all this blubbering is the technique (other than waterboarding) that supposedly got KSM to crack.