Where I agree /disagree with GH15

[pellius]

Disagree
 
3.While drugs do play a role in BB success it is hardly the only one. Muscle shape, conditioning, separation, balance, etc and contest diet, all play a huge role in how a pro looks on stage.
 

No where has gh15 claimed that drugs play the only role in a BB success. He has said many times that what separates the top of the top is not only response to hormones (genetics) but how you are put together. Your structure and muscle shape. Also, a factor due to genetics.

With enough high quality drugs, food, consistent training and free time a large percentage of the population can attain pro size. You can get as far as national competition. To be world class you need the genetic gift of muscle shape and proportion.

But at that level, it's drugs and your response to them because no matter how hard you train and how good your nutrition without drugs you don't have a chance.
 

[gh15]

Believe it or not I AGREE with GH15 and some of  his views on drugs in BB.
Agree
1. Extreme drug use is a big part of ALL level , locals,, national and IFBB pro bodybuilding.
2. It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this and its wrong for the gym rat who claim natural to lie about this,,
3. It is impossible to be a top IFBB pro BB without drugs,,it is also imposible to win a local mr city  and be the local  hero at your city with out drugs ,,that includes spring breaks hard body contests,,
4. Genetic RESPOND to hormones plays a huge role in BB success at any level levels of the cult,,genetics play a role when you determine who win mr tampa steve or hanry ,,both are profesionals and THATS ONLY WHEN GENETIC COUNTS,,

Disagree
1. You can and will make impressive gains via basic , hard training and good diet without drugs
Now, you won't be an IFBB pro BB, but you can build a strong , healthy muscular physique.
I have know plenty of big , strong, muscular guys that didn't do any (or just a  few)  roids .
To claim that EVERY big strong guy is juiced, is silly .

EVERY STRONG BIG GUY WITH singles to low doubles bf percentage is on hormones,,but yes you can build a 180lb 10% physiqe at 5'9 that will be dense and when pumped may even look good for the girls,, you can also  make that phsyqe very cut and defines at 165 at 6% for spring break ,,but rest assure you will be wiped by the 197 lb fella who show up same height at 8% because he is on,,,

2. The IFBB should enforce their existing 48 pgs of drug testing/banned substances rules.
Unlike GH15 I feel strongly the top pros would still look damn impressive without a lot drugs.
Obviously the pro physiques would be smaller and less freaky. But a more classic look , would have better mass market appeal.
This,would increase the sponsors and $$$ the pros could make and they wouldn't have the legal hassles.

NO DRUGS = NO PROS,,a pro with otu drugs me included is nothing to write home about,, jason cutler with no drugs = 190-200lb at 15-16% on a good day ,,there will never be drug enforcment because there is no bodybuilding with out hormones,,why would someone come to see you if you are 148 lb at 4 percent at the hiehg tof 5'11 ? they got same muscle mass on them ...


3.While drugs do play a role in BB success it is hardly the only one. Muscle shape, conditioning, separation, balance, etc and contest diet, all play a huge role in how a pro looks on stage.

hormones as i said before = 90% the rest is 10% ,,you wont be abl eto do nothing naturally or if clean for over 1-2 years,,inaddition ofcourse you wqont be able to win shows if your diet is not dialed to the t so yes it is there too ,,same as the rest only to a lesser degree,,,

I am trying to keep this debate civil and on the issues, thus the outline and no personal attack on GH15. I know some here think I am a douchebag which is fine. BUT try to make a post reply that adds to the either side of this debate.



so there you have it gh15 personal signature on your own posting,,now we agree on many things,,

gh15 approved

[Howard]

GH15, thanks for the thoughtful reply and food for thought on this issue.
I think where we really differ is :
1. How good can a true natty be in terms of ripped muscle size?
I think that the bar is HIGHER than you estimate. A genetic freak natty is after all a genetic freak.
I sincerely believe based on what I have observed , that the majority of top pros would still be look damn impressive without drugs.

To be specific , I think Jay Cutler could compete at least 215 and ripped without drugs.
This is a good 50 lbs below what he competes at now , which is reasonable.
Ronnie at his peak could have competed at 225 just as cut, again this was a good 60 lbs under his biggest Olympia wt.

I do agree that DRUG TESTED pro BB would be quite different in the IFBB.
The female pros would be light years better and have a lot more mass market appeal . Of course the typical schmo would be upset, but that is a rather small niche market hehe.
The male pros would be more realistic and not as freaky obviously, which I think would be a great thing.
Once again, the typical "hardcore" fan who loves freaks is going to have a meltdown if Mr Olympia is guy closer to 200 lbs rather than 300.

I really don't care of the sport is 100% drug free as I am not into pure ideals. It is my personal OPINION , that extreme drug use has all but destroyed female BB and hurt the growth and $$$ for the guys.
You need to realize that I think Frank Zane was the ideal Mr Olympia physique to fully understand me and my BB ideals.
Thanks again.

[~UN_$ung~]

Believe it or not I AGREE with GH15 and some of  his views on drugs in BB.
Agree
1. Extreme drug use is a big part of ALL level , locals,, national and IFBB pro bodybuilding.
2. It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this and its wrong for the gym rat who claim natural to lie about this,,
3. It is impossible to be a top IFBB pro BB without drugs,,it is also imposible to win a local mr city  and be the local  hero at your city with out drugs ,,that includes spring breaks hard body contests,,
4. Genetic RESPOND to hormones plays a huge role in BB success at any level levels of the cult,,genetics play a role when you determine who win mr tampa steve or hanry ,,both are profesionals and THATS ONLY WHEN GENETIC COUNTS,,

Disagree
1. You can and will make impressive gains via basic , hard training and good diet without drugs
Now, you won't be an IFBB pro BB, but you can build a strong , healthy muscular physique.
I have know plenty of big , strong, muscular guys that didn't do any (or just a  few)  roids .
To claim that EVERY big strong guy is juiced, is silly .

EVERY STRONG BIG GUY WITH singles to low doubles bf percentage is on hormones,,but yes you can build a 180lb 10% physiqe at 5'9 that will be dense and when pumped may even look good for the girls,, you can also  make that phsyqe very cut and defines at 165 at 6% for spring break ,,but rest assure you will be wiped by the 197 lb fella who show up same height at 8% because he is on,,,

2. The IFBB should enforce their existing 48 pgs of drug testing/banned substances rules.
Unlike GH15 I feel strongly the top pros would still look damn impressive without a lot drugs.
Obviously the pro physiques would be smaller and less freaky. But a more classic look , would have better mass market appeal.
This,would increase the sponsors and $$$ the pros could make and they wouldn't have the legal hassles.

NO DRUGS = NO PROS,,a pro with otu drugs me included is nothing to write home about,, jason cutler with no drugs = 190-200lb at 15-16% on a good day ,,there will never be drug enforcment because there is no bodybuilding with out hormones,,why would someone come to see you if you are 148 lb at 4 percent at the hiehg tof 5'11 ? they got same muscle mass on them ...


3.While drugs do play a role in BB success it is hardly the only one. Muscle shape, conditioning, separation, balance, etc and contest diet, all play a huge role in how a pro looks on stage.

hormones as i said before = 90% the rest is 10% ,,you wont be abl eto do nothing naturally or if clean for over 1-2 years,,inaddition ofcourse you wqont be able to win shows if your diet is not dialed to the t so yes it is there too ,,same as the rest only to a lesser degree,,,

I am trying to keep this debate civil and on the issues, thus the outline and no personal attack on GH15. I know some here think I am a douchebag which is fine. BUT try to make a post reply that adds to the either side of this debate.



so there you have it gh15 personal signature on your own posting,,now we agree on many things,,

gh15 approved

please GH dont even vindicate howard the lecherous creep by replying to his absurd posts

he is a laughing stalk....

[kevinf]

To be specific , I think Jay Cutler could compete at least 215 and ripped without drugs.
This is a good 50 lbs below what he competes at now , which is reasonable.
Ronnie at his peak could have competed at 225 just as cut, again this was a good 60 lbs under his biggest Olympia wt.
 

WTF!  jay cutler is 5'9 .you really think he'd be at least 215 ripped without drugs?
man you live under a fuckin rock

[4thAD]

"It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this"

Why should anybody tell everyone what they are doing,especially if it`s illegal?

This is exactly why people lie about it. Why would one want to incriminate one's self? More of a legal issue than just being a liar, especially here in the states where you will be branded a cheater and an addict.

[~UN_$ung~]

WTF!  jay cutler is 5'9 .you really think he'd be at least 215 ripped without drugs?
man you live under a fuckin rock

you gotta pardon howard,...........his mentally retarded

throwing around these numbers, 215, 225, rippped........@ 5'9 thats like a high level NPC guy.........pros are liek 235-245 on stage

so what he is saying essentially, that for a 5'9 guy..............all the steroids, all the HGH, all the insulin will only add that final 10-15 stage lbs.


he really is a stupid, stupid old man............

without steroids: 5'9 @ 225 on stage
with steroids    :  5'9 @ 235 on stage  

[~UN_$ung~]

No, I am saying a good 50 or 60 lbs added with the drugs. EVERYONE would lose a good 10-20% mass.That is my estimate
Ronnie was the biggest Mr O at 286. It seems reasonable to think he could be 226 and ripped with drugs.
A 200 lb ripped NPC guy drugged with around 180 natty,

Well you wrong, even ronnie coleman, if he were totally natural, would have competed at sub-200lbs


say ronnie is 5'9-5'10.............most guys that size would compete are like 175........naturally.... ..........lets say ronnie is a REAL FREAK, which he is, if he is lucky............real lucky and an exceptional natural bodybuilder............h e might have conceivabley got up to around 190-193.........and that probably pressing it a little far

[Howard]

you gotta pardon howard,...........his mentally retarded

throwing around these numbers, 215, 225, rippped........@ 5'9 thats like a high level NPC guy.........pros are liek 235-245 on stage

so what he is saying essentially, that for a 5'9 guy..............all the steroids, all the HGH, all the insulin will only add that final 10-15 stage lbs.


he really is a stupid, stupid old man............

without steroids: 5'9 @ 225 on stage
with steroids    :  5'9 @ 235 on stage  

You are 100% right, I am retard. Why the hell I am wasting my time on here talking to you douchebags ?
I got a sexy wife and the MLB package with actual  games on ,RIGHT NOW etc.  I swear to GOD that just hit me about how absurd it is.
Here I sit in my tighty whitys posting on get big like it matters or something.
I'm an idiot.This is pathetic. Good night

[SgtSpar]

...I am retard.

This just keeps getting better.....

[~UN_$ung~]

You are 100% right, I am retard. Why the hell I am wasting my time on here talking to you douchebags ?
I got a sexy wife and the MLB package with actual  games on ,RIGHT NOW etc.  I swear to GOD that just hit me about how absurd it is.
Here I sit in my tighty whitys posting on get big like it matters or something.
I'm an idiot.This is pathetic. Good night

so you mean you could really be accomplishing something right now..............like watching baseball on TV.............WAY TO SET THE WORLD ON FIRE HOWARD, lol

[Howard]

so you mean you could really be accomplishing something right now..............like watching baseball on TV.............WAY TO SET THE WORLD ON FIRE HOWARD, lol

Now, if I was watching baseball in my underwear drinking a beer and farting in my dogs face, it would be a BIGGER acomplishment then reading your post.