Where I agree /disagree with GH15

[Howard]

Believe it or not I AGREE with GH15 and some of  his views on drugs in BB.
Agree
1. Extreme drug use is a big part of elite level , national and IFBB pro bodybuilding.
2. It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this .
3. It is impossible to be a top IFBB pro BB without drugs.
4. Genetics plays a huge role in BB success at the higest levels of the sport.

Disagree
1. You can and will make impressive gains via basic , hard training and good diet without drugs
Now, you won't be an IFBB pro BB, but you can build a strong , healthy muscular physique.
I have know plenty of big , strong, muscular guys that didn't do any (or just a  few)  roids .
To claim that EVERY big strong guy is juiced, is silly .

2. The IFBB should enforce their existing 48 pgs of drug testing/banned substances rules.
Unlike GH15 I feel strongly the top pros would still look damn impressive without a lot drugs.
Obviously the pro physiques would be smaller and less freaky. But a more classic look , would have better mass market appeal.
This,would increase the sponsors and $$$ the pros could make and they wouldn't have the legal hassles.


3.While drugs do play a role in BB success it is hardly the only one. Muscle shape, conditioning, separation, balance, etc and contest diet, all play a huge role in how a pro looks on stage.

I am trying to keep this debate civil and on the issues, thus the outline and no personal attack on GH15. I know some here think I am a douchebag which is fine. BUT try to make a post reply that adds to the either side of this debate.

[~UN_$ung~]

you are a disgusting old fruit, and GH15 owns your fucking mind


HOW MANY THREADS HAVE YOU STARTED ABOUT GH15 IN THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS?



Where is your fucking dignity

[Disgusted]

1. You can and will make impressive gains via basic , hard training and good diet without drugs
Now, you won't be an IFBB pro BB, but you can build a strong , healthy muscular physique.
I have know plenty of big , strong, muscular guys that didn't do any (or just a  few)  roids .

What do you define as "just a few roids"?

[~UN_$ung~]

What do you define as "just a few roids"?

exactly, cause gym buffs have typically been SO honest with others about their steroid use


the never, inflate, minimalize or outright fabricate


they surely are completely honest with fat-tit howard



there are IFBB pros for christ sake that still claim natural status with a straight face.........but howie has his finger on the pulse

[Howard]

What do you define as "just a few roids"?

Good question. I would say it would refer to a guy who did a small cycle or two (to experiment?) , got off and spent most of his lifting life clean.
IT could be a guy that did a couple cycles as a college football player.
It could also be an older guy like me , who uses Androgel to keep his test levels in the ideal * (MD values for health NOT bodybuilding).
The big issue is that the amounts would be small or very infrequent. Where it is clear that over 90% of his size/strength is NOT from any drug use.
TO be specific , a small amount would be no more than a 200 mg shot of test or 100 mg of decca a week.

[~UN_$ung~]

i like to call it the 1/3-1/2 rule..................pr etty much everyone rounds their dose down by around a third............most unfortunately cut their does in half when they talk about it to others

[wes]

"It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this"

Why should anybody tell everyone what they are doing,especially if it`s illegal?

[Howard]

exactly, cause gym buffs have typically been SO honest with others about their steroid use


the never, inflate, minimalize or outright fabricate


they surely are completely honest with fat-tit howard



there are IFBB pros for christ sake that still claim natural status with a straight face.........but howie has his finger on the pulse

You actually hit upon one of they key pts in the debate. It is near imposible to really know who takes what. We end up going on rumor or heresay...good pt. I think that is the mistake GH15 makes in his strong view , that it is all drugs. To me , that is impossible to know as NOBODY really knows all the actual data
Fat tit? LOL, I am trying to get leaner and am getting back into running.

[Howard]

"It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this"

Why should anybody tell everyone what they are doing,especially if it`s illegal?

I agree and I tried to mention that in the "disagree" pts on my outline above.
That is exactly why the IFBB needs to enforce drug testing.
1.To compete in the IFBB pros ya gotta use a lot of drugs
2. in most places that kind of drug use is ILLEGAL
3. I think it wrong  to "be required" to  break the law , just to compete on level playing field.

[Disgusted]

Good question. I would say it would refer to a guy who did a small cycle or two (to experiment?) , got off and spent most of his lifting life clean.
IT could be a guy that did a couple cycles as a college football player.
It could also be an older guy like me , who uses Androgel to keep his test levels in the ideal * (MD values for health NOT bodybuilding).
The big issue is that the amounts would be small or very infrequent. Where it is clear that over 90% of his size/strength is NOT from any drug use.
TO be specific , a small amount would be no more than a 200 mg shot of test or 100 mg of decca a week.

Competitive BBing requires lots of drugs to be competitive, I think we can all agree on that. Anyone can enter a show drug free, but they will never win a show drug free. Secondly, the IFBB will never drug test.

[DK II]

Believe it or not I AGREE with GH15 and some of  his views on drugs in BB.
Agree
1. Extreme drug use is a big part of elite level , national and IFBB pro bodybuilding.
2. It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this .
3. It is impossible to be a top IFBB pro BB without drugs.
4. Genetics plays a huge role in BB success at the higest levels of the sport.

Disagree
1. You can and will make impressive gains via basic , hard training and good diet without drugs
Now, you won't be an IFBB pro BB, but you can build a strong , healthy muscular physique.
I have know plenty of big , strong, muscular guys that didn't do any (or just a  few)  roids .
To claim that EVERY big strong guy is juiced, is silly .

2. The IFBB should enforce their existing 48 pgs of drug testing/banned substances rules.
Unlike GH15 I feel strongly the top pros would still look damn impressive without a lot drugs.
Obviously the pro physiques would be smaller and less freaky. But a more classic look , would have better mass market appeal.
This,would increase the sponsors and $$$ the pros could make and they wouldn't have the legal hassles.


3.While drugs do play a role in BB success it is hardly the only one. Muscle shape, conditioning, separation, balance, etc and contest diet, all play a huge role in how a pro looks on stage.

I am trying to keep this debate civil and on the issues, thus the outline and no personal attack on GH15. I know some here think I am a douchebag which is fine. BUT try to make a post reply that adds to the either side of this debate.

Nobody gives a fuck about what you agree/disagree with.

Just try to make something about your obsession with gh15.

[Howard]

Competitive BBing requires lots of drugs to be competitive, I think we can all agree on that. Anyone can enter a show drug free, but they will never win a show drug free. Secondly, the IFBB will never drug test.

I disagree that every winner of a drug tested shows  cheats and uses. Plenty of guys have done just fine without drugs.
Hmmm, you are correct that as things stand the IFBB won't drug test. BUT...shit happens, ya never know.
Either way, I am a fan of the sport. If things stay UNtested , I am going to some pro shows, and they started testing I would still go.
It won't change my support one way or the other.

[Howard]

Nobody gives a fuck about what you agree/disagree with.

Just try to make something about your obsession with gh15.

I already realize that tis is not a pressing concern in the media.
For someone that doesn't care, you sure made an effort to read the threead topic and post here. 

[Disgusted]

I disagree that every winner of a drug tested shows  cheats and uses. Plenty of guys have done just fine without drugs.
Hmmm, you are correct that as things stand the IFBB won't drug test. BUT...shit happens, ya never know.
Either way, I am a fan of the sport. If things stay UNtested , I am going to some pro shows, and they started testing I would still go.
It won't change my support one way or the other.

 Just so you know I wasn't talking about drug tested shows.

[Howard]

Just so you know I wasn't talking about drug tested shows.

Good pt, thanks.
At the national level you can't win without drugs BUT I have seen a handful of guys win at the state UNtested level.
I am nothing special and I won a few state /local shows without being on anything. It depends on the show and level of comp. BUT I agree any big major UNtested show won't be one by a natty.
For example, say Goodrum finally gets cut and shows some definition ( hey it could happen)
He enters an UNtested NPC show and beats 2 smooth guys who are not very conditioned.
I hate to admit it ,but I got some wins by simply being in shape , in a division with a few  guys who looked kinda smooth under the lights.

[DK II]

I already realize that tis is not a pressing concern in the media.
For someone that doesn't care, you sure made an effort to read the threead topic and post here. 

reading the thread topic in the list is unavoidable.

I opened the thread, clicked on the "quote" button and made my remark, i didn't even bother to read your bullshit. 

[Howard]

reading the thread topic in the list is unavoidable.

I opened the thread, clicked on the "quote" button and made my remark, i didn't even bother to read your bullshit. 

No biggy, as a high school science teacher I am used to people not reading what I wrote or ignoring me when I talk 

[Disgusted]

Good pt, thanks.
At the national level you can't win without drugs BUT I have seen a handful of guys win at the state UNtested level.
I am nothing special and I won a few state /local shows without being on anything. It depends on the show and level of comp. BUT I agree any big major UNtested show won't be one by a natty.
For example, say Goodrum finally gets cut and shows some definition ( hey it could happen)
He enters an UNtested NPC show and beats 2 smooth guys who are not very conditioned.
I hate to admit it ,but I got some wins by simply being in shape , in a division with a few  guys who looked kinda smooth under the lights.

Yes that can happen. You come in in shape and beat a couple of fat guys who are on. Sadly, the guy who enter local shows are on more stuff than the guys in the 80's are the Olympia level.

[Howard]

Yes that can happen. You come in in shape and beat a couple of fat guys who are on. Sadly, the guy who enter local shows are on more stuff than the guys in the 80's are the Olympia level.

I know it! I can't even begin to tell ya the number of meatheads who enter shows juiced to the gills, BUT smooth with few cuts. Unreal back acne , bitch tits, absurd synthol, you name it and they obviosuly think they look "AWESOME". Sure, they look big and bulky walking around but on stage look flat as a painted wall.  Most will have an entourage of bros  in tow at the contest.
After the meathead gets destroyed , they all blame judging politics .
I can tell you from decades of experience that at the local /state level being ripped is a LOT more important than drugs in a lot of shows

[Palpatine Q]

I like Howard.....his posts are so cutting edge and at the same time entertaining  

[Howard]

I like Howard.....his posts are so cutting edge and at the same time entertaining  

At least you are screwing me with a smile  . Next time , how about more vaseline and a reach-around?

[Sir Bigness]

Believe it or not I AGREE with GH15 and some of  his views on drugs in BB.
Agree
1. Extreme drug use is a big part of elite level , national and IFBB pro bodybuilding.
2. It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this .
3. It is impossible to be a top IFBB pro BB without drugs.
4. Genetics plays a huge role in BB success at the higest levels of the sport.

Disagree
1. You can and will make impressive gains via basic , hard training and good diet without drugs
Now, you won't be an IFBB pro BB, but you can build a strong , healthy muscular physique.
I have know plenty of big , strong, muscular guys that didn't do any (or just a  few)  roids .
To claim that EVERY big strong guy is juiced, is silly .

2. The IFBB should enforce their existing 48 pgs of drug testing/banned substances rules.
Unlike GH15 I feel strongly the top pros would still look damn impressive without a lot drugs.
Obviously the pro physiques would be smaller and less freaky. But a more classic look , would have better mass market appeal.
This,would increase the sponsors and $$$ the pros could make and they wouldn't have the legal hassles.


3.While drugs do play a role in BB success it is hardly the only one. Muscle shape, conditioning, separation, balance, etc and contest diet, all play a huge role in how a pro looks on stage.

I am trying to keep this debate civil and on the issues, thus the outline and no personal attack on GH15. I know some here think I am a douchebag which is fine. BUT try to make a post reply that adds to the either side of this debate.

Great evaluation!!

[The Abdominal Snoman]

Believe it or not I AGREE with GH15 and some of  his views on drugs in BB.
Agree
1. Extreme drug use is a big part of elite level , national and IFBB pro bodybuilding.
2. It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this .
3. It is impossible to be a top IFBB pro BB without drugs.
4. Genetics plays a huge role in BB success at the higest levels of the sport.

Disagree
1. You can and will make impressive gains via basic , hard training and good diet without drugs
Now, you won't be an IFBB pro BB, but you can build a strong , healthy muscular physique.
I have know plenty of big , strong, muscular guys that didn't do any (or just a  few)  roids .
To claim that EVERY big strong guy is juiced, is silly .

2. The IFBB should enforce their existing 48 pgs of drug testing/banned substances rules.
Unlike GH15 I feel strongly the top pros would still look damn impressive without a lot drugs.
Obviously the pro physiques would be smaller and less freaky. But a more classic look , would have better mass market appeal.
This,would increase the sponsors and $$$ the pros could make and they wouldn't have the legal hassles.


3.While drugs do play a role in BB success it is hardly the only one. Muscle shape, conditioning, separation, balance, etc and contest diet, all play a huge role in how a pro looks on stage.

I am trying to keep this debate civil and on the issues, thus the outline and no personal attack on GH15. I know some here think I am a douchebag which is fine. BUT try to make a post reply that adds to the either side of this debate.

Listen Mr. E=MCqueer. Everybody knows plenty of big guys. But all those natural "big guys" shrink down to nothing if and when they ever do a contest diet. You want people to believe that you barely touch drugs etc etc? Listen, no one gives a fuck. You look like a bucket of shit whether your on or not. Your not on andro gel because of your test levels. Your on it because your dick is broken 4women. You need to jump out of the closet and live your life for crying out loud. I hate queers as much as the next guy, but if you're queer, you're queer!!!

I bet you show your students pictures of Phil Heath and say shit like " I used to be the size of this guy when I was that age but mother nature takes its course y0u little buckeroose". You may or may not know this, but you Sir are treading on the path that is Dr. Melvin Goodwin. Smarten your shit up bro before we send Sev enough money to fly him to the states and not only figure fuck your woman, but also steal her away from you

[pellius]

Believe it or not I AGREE with GH15 and some of  his views on drugs in BB.
Agree
1. Extreme drug use is a big part of elite level , national and IFBB pro bodybuilding.
2. It is unethical and wrong for the top guys to lie about this .
3. It is impossible to be a top IFBB pro BB without drugs.
4. Genetics plays a huge role in BB success at the higest levels of the sport.

Disagree
1. You can and will make impressive gains via basic , hard training and good diet without drugs
Now, you won't be an IFBB pro BB, but you can build a strong , healthy muscular physique.
I have know plenty of big , strong, muscular guys that didn't do any (or just a  few)  roids .
To claim that EVERY big strong guy is juiced, is silly .

2. The IFBB should enforce their existing 48 pgs of drug testing/banned substances rules.
Unlike GH15 I feel strongly the top pros would still look damn impressive without a lot drugs.
Obviously the pro physiques would be smaller and less freaky. But a more classic look , would have better mass market appeal.
This,would increase the sponsors and $$$ the pros could make and they wouldn't have the legal hassles.


3.While drugs do play a role in BB success it is hardly the only one. Muscle shape, conditioning, separation, balance, etc and contest diet, all play a huge role in how a pro looks on stage.

I am trying to keep this debate civil and on the issues, thus the outline and no personal attack on GH15. I know some here think I am a douchebag which is fine. BUT try to make a post reply that adds to the either side of this debate.

I haven't read the whole thread yet so this may have already been addressed.

I don't know what you mean by impressive gains. It's been my experience, after training consistently for over 35 years at countless gyms, that very few people that train consistently and follow a good diet look impressive. I will even go as far to say that if I didn't know who they were and just saw them at the mall or beach I would never have guessed that they work out at all. Anybody reading this, the next time you go to the gym spend a few minutes warming up on the bike and look around. Look at the people you see all the time working out. How many actually look in any kind of shape?

[Wiggs]

Howard if the IFBB enforced the rules, the sport would fucking suck.  I don't wanna see some oiled up normal bloke, I wanna see some muscled up oiled up freak...No Homo.