POLL: "De-Baptism:" Good Idea or Waste of time? Would you do it?

[Butterbean]

The Lords grace extends to infants.
Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means "infants"—children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious
decision to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." Jesus said: "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. So on what basis, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?
 

Yes, I believe Jesus extends His grace to those who are not able to consciously receive/reject Him...thus I believe that babies that die w/o consciously receiving Him as Savior still go to heaven.  This is further confirmed for me in the account of King David's baby.


But your scripture doesn't say anything about them being baptized in water?

Please tell me where in the Bible it says that infants are to be excluded from the grace of baptism? To say that they cannot receive it because they can’t possibly make the conscious decision is to ADD to God’s word..

If you want to baptize babies in water, no one is stopping you.  Some people believe it results in them being "saved," and some of us think it does nothing for the baby at all.  

I do have a question though.....if a baby is baptized in water and you believe this results in them being saved....if they live to an age where they can understand receiving Christ as Savior, do they need to believe in Him or not?

Well dunno about you, but Roman Catholics take Christ’s words literally when he said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

I can see that that scripture can pose some def. questions!!  


Some verses that may interest you:

Mark 1:6-8
John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."



John 4:1-38 (KJV)
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples)



John 7:37-38
On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."


EPH 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast.

Stella, I would just quickly like to know where you’re coming from.
Which one of the thousands of denominations do you belong to?

I go to a non-denominational church.

Do you believe that the Bible has an objective, infallible truth?

Yes.

If yes, then who has the authority to interpret it? Keep in mind; The Holy Spirit cannot be the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

I believe we should all read and study the bible on our own to see what it really says.  I think study materials can be helpful, but we need to look into it and study it ourselves.  

If you are asking if I think the Roman Catholic church/Pope has the authority to interpret it I stand by my position that we should study what it says ourselves.  

Didn't one of the Popes make Mary a "Co-redeemer" with Christ? What are your thoughts on that?

I have some other questions for you regarding traditions of Roman Catholicism if you don't mind...things I've always been curious about.  Maybe we should do another thread w/those questions?   We used to do "Learning Threads" here on diff. religions.  We could do one on RC if you'd be willing.  I tend to moderate them more strictly so they don't turn into a bash fest.  Let me know!

[Butterbean]

Sorry if I’m off base here, but are you interpreting Christ’s words in such a way to suit you? Baptism means “Pouring of water”. When Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) Roman Catholics take that literally, water, means water. If Jesus meant something else he would of said it differently to avoid the confusion, especially if it’s in regards to salvation wouldn’t you think?
The New Testament clearly associates water baptism with Spirit baptism and rebirth (even if they do not interpret this relationship as cause and effect).

Why do you suppose the word baptism is not in that verse?


And what are your thoughts on the verse immediately following John 3:5?

John 3:5-6:
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.



I read all of your post and some things you and I agree on but I will never believe that water baptism is a pre-requisite for salvation. 


I can post a bunch of verses if you like, but I'm pretty sure I won't convince you to my way of thinking either

You need both.
If someone is validly baptized as an infant, they receive grace. Maybe look at it this way; If you don't give a plant water and sunshine, it'll die. Same thing with the baptized infant. If they are not nurtured with the sunlight of Christ's truth (i.e., Catholic teaching) and the nutrition of soil/water, which is grace, they will die spiritually. And if they persist in spiritual death, then they will end up in hell.

I find this interesting though...could you please clarify for me...are you saying that a water baptized baby is saved...but later can lose their salvation?

What about someone who has been water baptized AND ALSO has accepted Christ as Savior...do you think they can lose their salvation?




I appreciate your explanation of Mary and the pope's co-redeemer thing...very interesting!! 

But do you agree that even our faith is a gift of God?

But in all this, who was THE Redeemer? Christ alone.

Yes I agree that Christ alone is THE Redeemer.

Feel free to ask   =).

Thanks so much!  I have many questions.  Maybe we will try to do one at a time on a Learning Thread.....will start one soon.....  Thanks Sizwe!

[PROBOUND]

What about someone who has been water baptized AND ALSO has accepted Christ as Savior...do you think they can lose their salvation?

There are examples in the Bible of such happening. It is possible, dear Stella.

[Butterbean]

There are examples in the Bible of such happening. It is possible, dear Stella.

Of people losing their salvation?  Will you please post the verses?

[PROBOUND]

Of people losing their salvation?  Will you please post the verses?

Yes, unfortunately for them hun. For starters, before I refer you to the actual examples mentioned in the Bible of folks whom lost their salvation, tell me how you interpret these few scriptures. ---->


Hebrews 10:26-29: (NIV)

(26) "If we deliberately keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (29) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace"?    

[Butterbean]

Yes, unfortunately for them hun. For starters, before I refer you to the actual examples mentioned in the Bible of folks whom lost their salvation, tell me how you interpret these few scriptures. ---->


Hebrews 10:26-29: (NIV)

(26) "If we deliberately keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (29) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace"?    

Oh hey I thought you might mention these verses!  We discussed this at a bible study before...

I think this is referring to people who have heard the gospel and are very close to believing on Jesus as Savior but before doing so, reject Him.   So they were never truly saved to begin with.

There are people who hang out in the company of believers and call themselves believers ...and even "do stuff in His name....."  but they may not be....  "Depart from me I never knew you" etc.



1 John 2:1,2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.  But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.  He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins...

John 10:28-30
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

[PROBOUND]

Oh hey I thought you might mention these verses!  We discussed this at a bible study before...

I think this is referring to people who have heard the gospel and are very close to believing on Jesus as Savior but before doing so, reject Him.   So they were never truly saved to begin with.

There are people who hang out in the company of believers and call themselves believers ...and even "do stuff in His name....."  but they may not be....  "Depart from me I never knew you" etc.



1 John 2:1,2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.  But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.  He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins...

John 10:28-30
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Good point, Stella! See if you can find some more scripture which will indicate directly/clearly if this is indeed so. Hint: There are some examples of where people WERE considered saved for a time, yet, gave up their salvation.

[Butterbean]

Good point, Stella! See if you can find some more scripture which will indicate directly/clearly if this is indeed so. Hint: There are some examples of where people WERE considered saved for a time, yet, gave up their salvation.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!


 

[Butterbean]

One more time. Baptism requires the pouring of water; it is the replacement of circumcision which was also performed on infants (Col. 2:11–12).
The use of water is required, it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God”. We use real water which symbolizes Christ who is the living water.  He is the fountain through whom we receive the Spirit which washes us of sin.

Christ baptizes w/the Holy Spirit.  Agree that Christ is the living Water...the Holy Spirit is often referred  to as Water. 

What about the thief on the cross?  He was not baptized w/water.

[Butterbean]

It’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks I suppose, and it can be an almost impossible task to get someone who’s been brought up their whole lives to think that “Catholics are wrong” to see and admit otherwise. I will pray for you.

Thanks.  I'll take all the prayer I can get! I was not brought up my whole life thinking that Catholics are wrong. 


Sorry I'm answering in separate posts by the screen is jumping when I type

[Butterbean]

.
Whereas Catholics believe that God gave Peter a special Grace to teach infallibly.  Jesus said "...you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Mat 16:18). We believe that Jesus extends this grace through Peter's successors to the present day Pope. We call this special grace infallibility. Therefore the Catholic Church has the only authority (which was granted by Christ) to interpret scripture. And that’s why everyone who leaves or isn’t part of the Roman Catholic Church subjects themselves to be lead into error, hence all the thousands of denominations which only continue to split up; ( that’s why I think an appropriate mission statement for the “Non denominational church” could be  “  We don’t know what on earth to believe about scripture anymore, so let’s all just worship in confusion together.”) LOL =P.

Yeah, I think most non-Catholics don't accept Peter as having infallibility.

Eph 2:19-21:

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.


What is the scripture where you think that subsequent Popes have infallibility?



So you only accept as true what your RC church teaches or just what the Pope teaches?  Do you ever read the bible for yourself?

[Butterbean]

Yes, you can always lose your salvation. Catholics believe it’s unbiblical to think otherwise.
Catholics believe we must "endure until the end" with our faith. (Heb 11:6)
Catholics would say that God gave us free will and that even after we are authentically "born again," we can always choose to sin. We believe we can damage or break the bond with Christ even after we have had an authentic "born again" experience. If you are into porn, I don't care whether you are a born again Evangelical, Catholic, or whatever type of Christian, your soul is in grave danger.
Non Catholics sometimes criticize Catholics pointing at Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." I think a big question about Romans 8:1 is this: What does it mean to be "in Christ Jesus"? If someone is sinning in a grave way we would question whether they are "in Jesus Christ." We'd say they have through free will left communion with Christ, and are therefore no longer "in Christ".
The word "NOW" in Romans 8:1 does not mean that we can now be certain of our salvation from this moment forward. I don't think the text says that at all. The word "now" means exactly that, "now." He does not say "from now on..." I think it's important not to try to add meaning to clear sentences in the Bible (which I incidentally I see non Catholics doing all the time,  i.e. excluding infants from baptism, saying the Eucharist is symbolic when Jesus clearly said “this IS my body and blood[…]” and   Martin Luther did when he added the word “alone” to “Christ ALONE […]” etc,).
Being in Christ is a moment to moment thing and after our born again experience, there are many times when a Christian has to look in the mirror and ask "where am I at with the Lord today?" Catholics believe that we must continue to be in the presence of God in order to remain free of condemnation. If we drift, we must come back. It is important to remember that the passage leading to Romans 8:1 says:
For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do ... For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. (Rom 7:15-20)
He is speaking in the present tense. These are battles we each face even after our born again experience. Even the apostle Paul did. We must run the race until the finish line. (2 Tim 4:7)
"Paul was totally "born again," yet he said "Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel" (1 Cor 9:16) When the Bible says "woe to ..." it means that there is grave danger, including hell. (Mat 11:21, 18:7, 23:13-16, 23-29, 24:19, 26:24, Mk 14:2, Lk 6:24-26, 10:13, 11:42-52, 17:1, 21:23, 22:22, Jud 1:11, Rev 8:13, 9:12, 11:14, 12:12)
Paul is saying that he must not only believe in the Lord Jesus but he must also do the will of Jesus, which was to preach the Gospel.
Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Mat 7:20)

Yes, I believe it is a good stepping stone. I believe if any non Catholic studies the Bible and church history enough, and without biased, they will see that the Roman Catholic Church is truly the church that Jesus built upon Peter, and that it cannot teach error in regards to faith and morals as promised by Christ and that it also provides a “fullness” of Christianity and a more intimate relationship with Christ.

I'll split this stuff to another thread later (RCC Learning Thread if that's OK w/you)...when my computer is behaving

But just in case you are interested, these are some of the scriptures that I believe indicate that water baptism is not necessary for salvation:


Eph 2:8,9
You are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast.

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Galatians 3
Entire chapter but here is Gal 3:1-9:

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

[MCWAY]

More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).
Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means "infants"—children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious
decision to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." And that is precisely the problem. Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said "let them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?

Oh an I suppose households these days don't have infants too  
If there were exceptions to infants in a household Jesus would of made that clear. I'm pretty sure he knew his word would be recorded and lived by.

Next False accusation of the Roman Catholic Church please..

None of those children are recorded as being baptized. And, as stated earlier, I have no issue with children (i.e. NON-INFANTS) getting baptized. Most churches have age minimums for that (usually around age 10-12).


Why would I be against that? I WAS BAPTIZED AROUND THAT AGE!