Author Topic: 5 Soldiers Are Said to Face Punishment in Koran Burnings - FFFUUBBOO!!!!  (Read 4163 times)

Skip8282

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The one person on this board who has actually been over there, interacted with the people, seen their mores, values, and customs first hand, HH6, has stated that this is how Muslims destroy the Koran themselves.




Did you like miss this part or something?  ^^^^

So you're argument is that soldiers who see that Muslims destroy the Koran by burning it are supposed to assume that destroying the Koran by burning it is wrong?

Yeah, that makes monster sense.

We'll see what facts hold.  I still don't think Obama is going to turn them over.


Skip8282

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I'm going to prophesize a CT:


The names of those involved will not be released citing "personal safety"

Shortly thereafter, it will be announced that these anonymous people were dealt with "severely".  Maybe even throw in some jail time at Leavenworth.

Obama will act like Karzai's bitch and pathetically attempt to tell him that we've "harshly" dealt with these evil interlopers.

Reality, nothing happens to any of them.  :D

OzmO

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Probably on your CT.
________________________ _


It wouldn't matter what they saw the other Muslims do.  Then  They should have had a cleric support it and light the match.

So I will also state it again,these are people who riot over cartoons and mean to kill the cartoonists.  How much more obvious could it be to careful approaching burning Korans?

Also, the issue of how/if it was done the past 10 years is still relevant here. 

Skip8282

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Probably on your CT.
________________________ _


It wouldn't matter what they saw the other Muslims do.  Then  They should have had a cleric support it and light the match.

So I will also state it again,these are people who riot over cartoons and mean to kill the cartoonists.  How much more obvious could it be to careful approaching burning Korans?

Also, the issue of how/if it was done the past 10 years is still relevant here. 



The purpose of the cartoons was/is to mock and poke fun at the religion.

The "common sense" lesson derived is that "mocking or poking fun" at the religion is going to cause a problem.

It's NOT that all cartoons are bad.

If HH6 is to be believed, the soldiers witnessed the Muslims burn the book to destroy it.

The "common sense" lesson is that burning is appropriate for a Koran. 

OzmO

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I am in no way denying what HH6 says or has reported here.

It's still an issue of commn sense to be aware of a potentially bad decision and everything insanely primitive about these rural Muslims is a no brainer to be considered. 

Shipped them away, have a cleric do it what ever.  Just don't burn them ourselves and risk inciting the 13th century peeps. 

Skip8282

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I am in no way denying what HH6 says or has reported here.

It's still an issue of commn sense to be aware of a potentially bad decision and everything insanely primitive about these rural Muslims is a no brainer to be considered. 

Shipped them away, have a cleric do it what ever.  Just don't burn them ourselves and risk inciting the 13th century peeps. 




So, even if it turns out to be customary or what they believed to be customary...you still want to argue they had no common sense?

Sorry, but that doesn't even pass basic logic for me.



But, we'll see.  Hopefully more facts will come out.  For all I know, they were ordered not to do it, and did it anyway.

OzmO

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So, even if it turns out to be customary or what they believed to be customary...you still want to argue they had no common sense?

Sorry, but that doesn't even pass basic logic for me.

But, we'll see.  Hopefully more facts will come out.  For all I know, they were ordered not to do it, and did it anyway.

I am arguing that they should have not done it anyway considering how primitively volital these people are.  To that extent they didn't use common sense.  These people are ultra sensitive about their religion.  Even if they burn their books they probably would take offense to a non-Muslim doing it.   Doesn't that make sense to you Skip?

But like You said we don't know all the facts and I agree my take on it my be premature. 

OzmO

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Other points to this arguement:

- It was reported as an "accidental" burning giving way to the possibility that they had been through this before with other Korans meaning they didn't burn those or let The afghans know.

-  Has HH6's report been supported elsewhere?  I other words has this been brought up with the afghans? 

Skip8282

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I dunno...not sure it would matter given the current fervor.

Just have to wait for what else comes out.

Montague

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And then they starting rioting...


They will do that regardless of anything we do or don't do in regards to them.

Shockwave

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They will do that regardless of anything we do or don't do in regards to them.
Exactly my point. They could have flown those Qurans out of the country, and someone could have told a cleric or some shit, next thing you know, BOOM, were taking their Qurans away from people who "just want their book of worship", and BAM, more villification, more riots. Different scenario, same outcome.

I dont think it made a damn difference, they were looking for a reason to incite violence, just like they always do. Im sorry, but there is no way in hell to ensure that we will not give them a reason to incite violence, theyll just come up with something.

No Americans should be held accountable for disposing of damaged Qurans in the proper method. I see where Ozmo is coming from, but the bottom line is you will NEVER be able to 100% Muslim proof yourself over there. They will FIND a way to incite violence against us, even if we did everything 100% politically correct for them and tried to give them NO reason to riot. It cannot be done. And it shouldnt be. We should NOT bend over backwards, allowing the Muslims to dictate our actions because were scared of them freaking out, because they will, about whatever they can.

Fury

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[ Invalid YouTube link ]

This is how they dispose of Korans in Pakistan. Let's save the faux outrage and ridiculous defending (Ozmo the fool) of this totalitarian ideology masquerading as a religion.  ::)

headhuntersix

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Dude this whole thing is ridiculous. These people suck...they deserve nothing. They don't deserve the life of one of our working dogs, let alone our kids'.
L

OzmO

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Exactly my point. They could have flown those Qurans out of the country, and someone could have told a cleric or some shit, next thing you know, BOOM, were taking their Qurans away from people who "just want their book of worship", and BAM, more villification, more riots. Different scenario, same outcome.
I dont think it made a damn difference, they were looking for a reason to incite violence, just like they always do. Im sorry, but there is no way in hell to ensure that we will not give them a reason to incite violence, theyll just come up with something.
No Americans should be held accountable for disposing of damaged Qurans in the proper method. I see where Ozmo is coming from, but the bottom line is you will NEVER be able to 100% Muslim proof yourself over there. They will FIND a way to incite violence against us, even if we did everything 100% politically correct for them and tried to give them NO reason to riot. It cannot be done. And it shouldnt be. We should NOT bend over backwards, allowing the Muslims to dictate our actions because were scared of them freaking out, because
they will, about whatever they can.

Good points, these 13th century primitiVes will always find something.   Still think out of sight out mind would have worked.  I also still want to know how they dealt with it disposing Korans the past 10 years.

One way to thrOw it back in their faces would have been to punish the people who defaced the Koran in the fist place.

OzmO

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[ Invalid YouTube link ]

This is how they dispose of Korans in Pakistan. Let's save the faux outrage and ridiculous defending (Ozmo the fool) of this totalitarian ideology masquerading as a religion.  ::)

Yeah just fool enough to have enough common sense to know non muslims burning Korans might incite the animals.

OzmO

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Another question I have with this is why 5 soldiers?

Shouldn't the one person who ordered it be on the hot seat here?  

This suggests that maybe the 5 disobeyed orders.  

I donno.

Skip8282

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Exactly my point. They could have flown those Qurans out of the country, and someone could have told a cleric or some shit, next thing you know, BOOM, were taking their Qurans away from people who "just want their book of worship", and BAM, more villification, more riots. Different scenario, same outcome.

I dont think it made a damn difference, they were looking for a reason to incite violence, just like they always do. Im sorry, but there is no way in hell to ensure that we will not give them a reason to incite violence, theyll just come up with something.

No Americans should be held accountable for disposing of damaged Qurans in the proper method. I see where Ozmo is coming from, but the bottom line is you will NEVER be able to 100% Muslim proof yourself over there. They will FIND a way to incite violence against us, even if we did everything 100% politically correct for them and tried to give them NO reason to riot. It cannot be done. And it shouldnt be. We should NOT bend over backwards, allowing the Muslims to dictate our actions because were scared of them freaking out, because they will, about whatever they can.



Good points.

Dos Equis

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November cannot come soon enough.  He should not be kissing the world's butt.  These Soldiers should not be punished.  This whole thing is way overblown. 

OzmO

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Does Romney beat Obama?

Soul Crusher

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Does Romney beat Obama?

The way things are going - yes.   

Soul Crusher

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US Soldier In Afghanistan Says It's Outrageous That The US Apologized For Koran Burnings
Eloise Lee | Mar. 8, 2012, 7:50 AM | 3,468 | 36





The fallout from the Koran burnings by U.S. service members last month continues.

Several U.S. soldiers have been killed. And on Monday, a suicide bomber blew himself up at the entrance of Bagram Airfield in retaliation for the incineration of Islam's holy book.

A U.S. soldier currently deployed to Afghanistan shared his view of the situation with me.

Sergeant Nick Shively of the 172nd Infantry Brigade stationed in Paktika province, said:

"The insurgents used the Koran to write jihadists messages to pass to others. In doing so, they violated their own cultural practice and defiled the Koran."

The holy books were confiscated from a U.S. prison, Parwan Detention Center at Bagram Airfield, after they were discovered to contain extremist messages and were mistakenly taken out with the office trash.

Sgt. Shively continued, "The insurgents turned the Koran into contraband. Therefore it’s ridiculous that we would even consider apologizing.”

Both General John Allen, the commander of U.S. and international forces in Afghanistan, and President Obama have issued apologies. It's a move that could save lives as violent protests rage and an inquiry by U.S. military investigators confirms that five American service members were responsible for the fiery, accidental disposal of Korans at Parwan Detention Center.

It's not the first time the prison has been at the center of U.S.-Afghan relations.

In January this year, President Karzai demanded the U.S. hand over the prison for the sake of Afghan sovereignty. The Washington Post reported that the Parwan Detention Center and its growing detainee population is regarded as a critical marker in the war's endgame and a sign that Afghan officials are ready to inherit institutions essential to the nation's future.

The recent Koran burnings there could give Karzai some leverage in his request for the U.S. to hand over the prison soon.

Winning hearts and minds



Douglas Wissing
 
The controversy speaks to the American struggle to win over hearts and minds in Afghanistan.

I spoke to historian and author Douglas Wissing who was embedded with U.S. troops in Afghanistan, including the same hostile province where Sgt. Shively is currently based.

Wissing had said in a blog post, "The recent case of Koran burning is even more absurd given the U.S. military was painfully aware of the problems of Koran burning. In late 2009, I was embedded with a unit of Kentucky soldiers, who encountered a mob of rioting Afghans protesting an alleged Koran burning by U.S. troops. Softball-sized rocks rained on the team's convoy of armored MRAPs, breaking windshields and antennas."

He believes last month's Koran burning at Bagram air base is a result of a failure of the counterinsurgency doctrine: "An over-promised doctrine."

What does he mean by over-promised?

“Winning hearts and minds makes sense from the podium in Washington, but it’s hard to have it work out in Afghanistan on the ground where the road just erupted in front of you with an IED.”

The doctrine is found in Field Manual 3-24 (FM3-24), the U.S. Army and Marine Corps' handbook for counterinsurgency operations published in 2006.

According to FM3-24, troops must be prepared take on combat missions while being expected to win over the local people with cultural sensitivity: "Ready to be greeted with either a handshake or a hand grenade...Soldiers and Marines are expected to be nation builders as well as warriors."

Counterinsurgency has a "generational timeline," said Wissing, and Afghan mission can't be wrapped up hastily. The international forces in Afghanistan are working with a tribal culture wherein relationships are fundamental.

Burning bridges

As the U.S. draws down its military presence and focuses on readying Afghanistan to stand on its own, Afghan public opinion will likely be monitored.

Troops will have to avoid any more gaffes that undermine the effort to win hearts and minds by burning bridges on their way out.

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