The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan

[howardroark]

How would you promote growth? Lower taxes?

Among other things. But government spending has to be reduced by more than taxes are cut.

[Straw Man]

But Paul Ryan is a radical... 

wow a whopping 300 billion a year

and all he had to do was give a tax break to billionares and take away medicare and other social safety nets

I'm sure the American people will get on board for this

He just needs to fill in the details so they understand exactly who will get the most benefit and exactly who will pay for it

I think once the American people understand that Ryan wants people like himself and his running mate to pay zero taxes on capital gain and make up for that lost revenue by taking away medicare then they will be all for it

[howardroark]

wow a whopping 300 billion a year

and all he had to do was give a tax break to billionares and take away medicare and other social safety nets

I'm sure the American people will get on board for this

He just needs to fill in the details so they understand exactly who will get the most benefit and exactly who will pay for it

I think once the American people understand that Ryan wants people like himself and his running mate to pay zero taxes on capital gain and make up for that lost revenue by taking away medicare then they will be all for it

Can you go a single day without saying a single lie?

There won't be a social safety net if the programs aren't reformed. Romney/Ryan do that - Obama doesn't. The capital gains tax cuts in the Romney Plan go toward those earning less than $250,000 - not billionaires or millionaires. Also, most Americans agree that the highest effective tax rate should be 25% - while Obama wants to raise the top tax rate to close to 40%.

[Straw Man]

Can you go a single day without saying a single lie?

There won't be a social safety net if the programs aren't reformed. Romney/Ryan do that - Obama doesn't. The capital gains tax cuts in the Romney Plan go toward those earning less than $250,000 - not billionaires or millionaires. Also, most Americans agree that the highest effective tax rate should be 25% - while Obama wants to raise the top tax rate to close to 40%.

why are you refering to the Romney plan when your chart compares Obama and Ryan

Ryans original budget include a near zero tax rate on capital gains and dividend and although he's since changed that (hmmm - I wonder why) he hasn't provided much details on where the cuts in spending would come from or who would benefit the most from tax cuts.   Those details are something he'll work out later and I suspect, if given the opportunity, he would go right back to his original budget which makes passive investment income virtually tax free and basically eliminates medicare for people over 55   

[howardroark]

why are you refering to the Romney plan when your chart compares Obama and Ryan

Because that's what the election is about - and because the chart should be nearly similar for the Romney Plan, which commits to many of the same reforms and spending growth rate reductions.

Ryans original budget include a near zero tax rate on capital gains and dividend

Which would be a great blessing for economic growth...

and although he's since changed that (hmmm - I wonder why) he hasn't provided much details on where the cuts in spending would come from

His plan balances the budget eventually and not quick enough admittedly - BUT it's a plan with enough legislative detail explaining how to balance the budget. Where's Obama's Plan? What taxes does he want to raise? What spending does he want to cut? Obama and the Democrats haven't put any of that on the table - because they know they'd lose the election if they did.

or who would benefit the most from tax cuts.

I'll give you a hint: those who pay the most in taxes.

   Those details are something he'll work out later and I suspect, if given the opportunity, he would go right back to his original budget which makes passive investment income virtually tax free and basically eliminates medicare for people over 55   

His plan doesn't eliminate Social Security and Medicare - it keeps it the same for seniors on these programs and those soon to be on it, while reforming it to keep it solvent in the future. It's rather funny that just a few days ago you were defending SS/Medicare reforms by saying that they were done when necessary to keep the programs solvent - and now you are against reforming SS/Medicare to keep those programs solvent because, well, those are the talking points coming down from the Obama Administration.

[Straw Man]

Because that's what the election is about - and because the chart should be nearly similar for the Romney Plan, which commits to many of the same reforms and spending growth rate reductions.

then show me a chart that compares Romney and Obama

Romney has gone on the record 4 or 5 times this week saying that his plan is similar to Ryan and that his plan is not similar to Ryan

Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't know the difference between the two plans

Neither have filled in the specific details on how they would produce the projected results

At this point all we know is where they hope to arrive but we have no specific details on how they intend to get there

[Soul Crusher]

then show me a chart that compares Romney and Obama

Romney has gone on the record 4 or 5 times this week saying that his plan is similar to Ryan and that his plan is not similar to Ryan

Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't know the difference between the two plans

Neither have filled in the specific details on how they would produce the projected results

At this point all we know is where they hope to arrive but we have no specific details on how they intend to get there

Only chart you need to concern yourself with. 

[howardroark]

then show me a chart that compares Romney and Obama

Romney has gone on the record 4 or 5 times this week saying that his plan is similar to Ryan and that his plan is not similar to Ryan

Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't know the difference between the two plans

Neither have filled in the specific details on how they would produce the projected results

At this point all we know is where they hope to arrive but we have no specific details on how they intend to get there

Romney's plan hasn't been put in legislative language so it cannot be scored like the Ryan Plan was. Some of the key differences include that the Romney Plan does away with Medicare cuts while the Ryan Plan incorporates the baseline budget (and therefore Obama's Medicare cuts). Another difference is that the Ryan Plan collapses the tax brackets to 10% and 25%, whereas the Romney Plan keeps all of our current tax brackets but reduces the marginal rates by 20%. In the end, the major changes are the same (reforms to entitlements) so the plans should score similarly.

All of this, of course, is contrasted with Obama's budget - which includes massive tax hikes in the baseline (expiration of Bush tax cuts for EVERYONE) but still literally never balances. Running toward bankruptcy, anyone?

[Straw Man]

Romney's plan hasn't been put in legislative language so it cannot be scored like the Ryan Plan was. Some of the key differences include that the Romney Plan does away with Medicare cuts while the Ryan Plan incorporates the baseline budget (and therefore Obama's Medicare cuts). Another difference is that the Ryan Plan collapses the tax brackets to 10% and 25%, whereas the Romney Plan keeps all of our current tax brackets but reduces the marginal rates by 20%. In the end, the major changes are the same (reforms to entitlements) so the plans should score similarly.

All of this, of course, is contrasted with Obama's budget - which includes massive tax hikes in the baseline (expiration of Bush tax cuts for EVERYONE) but still literally never balances. Running toward bankruptcy, anyone?

I would not characterize an approximately 3% tax increase as MASSIVE

I've also said many times that we should let all of the Bush tax cuts expire

They were a bad idea that just put us deeper in a financial hole and did nothing to help the economy

They belong to Bush and not Obama

Let them expire and  then Dems and Repubs can work together to create a new tax cut plan if thats what they want to do

[240 is Back]

Romney has gone on the record 4 or 5 times this week saying that his plan is similar to Ryan and that his plan is not similar to Ryan

Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't know the difference between the two plans

what a fcking embarassment

[howardroark]

I would not characterize an approximately 3% tax increase as MASSIVE

I've also said many times that we should let all of the Bush tax cuts expire

They were a bad idea that just put us deeper in a financial hole and did nothing to help the economy

They belong to Bush and not Obama

Let them expire and  then Dems and Repubs can work together to create a new tax cut plan if thats what they want to do

Were the Bush deficits caused by overspending or undertaxation? If you look at the data the answer is clear: in the aftermath of the 2000s recession, tax revenue as a share of GDP jumped above its historical average of 18%, yet the problem was that government spending as a share of GDP was growing at too fast a pace. The problem, thus, wasn't (and isn't) the Bush tax cuts, but rather the Bush-Obama record of overspending.

[Straw Man]

Were the Bush deficits caused by overspending or undertaxation? If you look at the data the answer is clear: in the aftermath of the 2000s recession, tax revenue as a share of GDP jumped above its historical average of 18%, yet the problem was that government spending as a share of GDP was growing at too fast a pace. The problem, thus, wasn't (and isn't) the Bush tax cuts, but rather the Bush-Obama record of overspending.

mostly over spending but certainly due in part to the fact that tax revenue went down as well and also greatly exacerbated by the economic downturn (crash) which was in some part due to Bush's policies (Clinton, Dems and Repubs get blame too for deregulating the commodities market)

[howardroark]

Tax revenue was ABOVE the historic average in 2007. Had Bush and the Republicans been capable of growing government at a slower pace than the economy OR AT LEAST KEEPING GOVERNMENT THE SAME SIZE AS WHEN CLINTON LEFT OFFICE, then the budget would have been balanced and the American people would have had a lower tax bill to boot - a win-win situation.

To make things worse the two competing plans presented to us don't really solve the problem. The Romney/Ryan Plan "slow" government growth to 3% - which likely will be faster than economic growth while the Obama Plan grows government at a faster rate than the Romney/Ryan Plan. Basically, it's a clusterfuck being set up to blame the free market when in reality this will entirely be the failure of government.