The State of Fighting Today

[Oldschool Flip]

Once again I'm talking about standup fighting. K-1 is standup MMA and Andy Hug(Kyokushin Karate fighter) was the champion until he died. So you have been proven wrong again. I'm always refering to full-contact karate. Not "self-defense" courses at the mini-mall.

My point about "stand up fighting" was that they CANNOT WIN with just traditional arts from fighting. K-1 is a combination of Muay Thai, karate, tae kwondo etc. In karate competitions do they use boxing gloves? So you CANNOT say that Andy Hug ONLY USED KARATE. In fact he didn't ONLY do Karate, but aother martial arts as well:

Kung Fu
Tae Kwondo
Taiji Quan

These were also art forms Hug learned. http://www.andyhug.com/content_detail,40,r,_Ez.html

[realkarateblackbelt]

My point about "stand up fighting" was that they CANNOT WIN with just traditional arts from fighting. K-1 is a combination of Muay Thai, karate, tae kwondo etc. In karate competitions do they use boxing gloves? So you CANNOT say that Andy Hug ONLY USED KARATE. In fact he didn't ONLY do Karate, but aother martial arts as well:

Kung Fu
Tae Kwondo
Taiji Quan

These were also art forms Hug learned. http://www.andyhug.com/content_detail,40,r,_Ez.html

I feel like you're sort of grasping at straws OSF. I'm sure he dabbled in other stuff but he was a Kyokushin Karate fighter first and foremost. He never earned a black belt in Tai Chi or Gung Fu. Tae Kwon Do is another form of Karate(shittier) All the same moves to put it simple, they just focus more on kicking. 

[Oldschool Flip]

I feel like you're sort of grasping at straws OSF. I'm sure he dabbled in other stuff but he was a Kyokushin Karate fighter first and foremost. He never earned a black belt in Tai Chi or Gung Fu. Tae Kwon Do is another form of Karate(shittier) All the same moves to put it simple, they just focus more on kicking. 

No straws grasped, I am only going by the INFO you give to me. I research it and find out if it's true or not, not just say it because I THINK IT'S TRUE. Hug was a great K-1 fighter, but overall Martial Arts forms today have diminished because MMA competition is more brutal than boxing or wrestling. The real only followers that believe they are great forms for fighting are the students and instructors at competitions. Maybe some of the kid's families show up, but MMA is viewed much more "real" than karate/kung-fu competitions.

[realkarateblackbelt]

No straws grasped, I am only going by the INFO you give to me. I research it and find out if it's true or not, not just say it because I THINK IT'S TRUE. Hug was a great K-1 fighter, but overall Martial Arts forms today have diminished because MMA competition is more brutal than boxing or wrestling. The real only followers that believe they are great forms for fighting are the students and instructors at competitions. Maybe some of the kid's families show up, but MMA is viewed much more "real" than karate/kung-fu competitions.

Andy Hug competed in standup MMA 

[Oldschool Flip]

Andy Hug competed in stand up MMA 

Dude, when are you going to give it up? Okay let's make it lean a little more to your side. I'm sure that the kicks and punches he used he got from his foundation of Kyokushin karate. However, in the ring as a K-1 fighter he didn't use Kyokushin Karate. If this were true, then today all the champions would use it if it were that devastating.

You know as well as I do, in almost all martial arts forms, punching and kicking get power from the hip. That's not even a debate. Kickboxers limit their kicks to low, medium and high roundhouses because other kicks leave them more vulnerable. Yet they have the same philosophy, to get the most power form the hips.

Your interpretation of the MMA not being a real fight form is due to you having to "have years of experience" to attain a black belt, but because these fighters don't fight under a martial arts discipline, that they are not "real" fighters in your eyes. A lot of them have bad form, and suck at punching and kicking power, but they are still the better fighters out there today. Few people can get into the ring and take the punishment they can.

The worst thing you can imagine is probably to find out the the "discipline" you have learned under, would end up being useless if you were to fight someone MMA style. That's too bad  because you should be expanding your horizons and not just limit yourself to a style just because you have a "black belt" in the art.

Shut us up. Get in the ring or compete. If not then what you have is just and opinion. And though I will agree with you on some points, I believe that you are set in your ways of how you see Martial Arts today.

[headhuntersix]

This is a great thread. I think the last guy nailed all the main points. My question then is how come evey time the "karate" guy enters the ring he gets his ass handed to him. Many people feel that the karate purist has no place in the octagon. The guys today are btter fighters for jumping from camp to camp. Tooling up on stand-up with one guy and moving to the condioning guys or th grapplers. The days of belt systems as we saw in the 70's and 80-s with the explosion of the strip mall karate studio are over. Pride and UFC have or are taking over the fight game and will eclipse boxing. one of my airmen interviewed Don King for a promotion he was doing in Europe. After the shoot, he asked King about MMA. King said that it would evetually be the number 1 fighting sport and he was looking into oppertunities in that area, and that he been 'invited' to look into that area. Ok take it for what its worth but...MMA is the way its going to go.

[Oldschool Flip]

What you guys are unconsciously debating, I think, is what the Ultimate Fighting Championship was created to solve: what is the most useful art?

Lol, I think it all actually became a debate of MMA vs Kyokushin Karate because realkarateblackbelt "feels" today's kids lack discipline to stay in 1 at form until they "earn" their black belt. I will admit that today's kids have the attention span much less than that of their parents generation, however I think to say they lack discipline to finish what they began is a generalization.
If "discipline" is what he is preaching, according to him at 6' adn 255 lbs. with no steroid use, I think he lacks "discipline" in his eating and cardio habits.

[an123]

Melvin said it best "Karate don't belong here"... 

[realkarateblackbelt]

This is a great thread. I think the last guy nailed all the main points. My question then is how come evey time the "karate" guy enters the ring he gets his ass handed to him. Many people feel that the karate purist has no place in the octagon. The guys today are btter fighters for jumping from camp to camp. Tooling up on stand-up with one guy and moving to the condioning guys or th grapplers. The days of belt systems as we saw in the 70's and 80-s with the explosion of the strip mall karate studio are over. Pride and UFC have or are taking over the fight game and will eclipse boxing. one of my airmen interviewed Don King for a promotion he was doing in Europe. After the shoot, he asked King about MMA. King said that it would evetually be the number 1 fighting sport and he was looking into oppertunities in that area, and that he been 'invited' to look into that area. Ok take it for what its worth but...MMA is the way its going to go.

Andy Hug was a Kyokushin Karate fighter and he didn't get his ass handed to him. He dominated everyone in K-1 after coming out of full-contact Karate competition. So you're wrong. It's the opposite. Bas Rutten is primarily a Karate fighter. His striking is Karate style.

Keith Hackney was a Gung Fu/Kempo fighter and he defeated all opponents standup(when the UFC was truly NHB with no weight classes, gloves, etc.And Tito Ortiz was watching at home because it wasn't safe enough yet). He only lost on the ground because he was not familiar with ground fighting(like everyone at this time).

Also, the number of Karate fighters that enter MMA is small. Karate is self-defense - meaning you do whatever it takes to defend yourself - anything goes. It's not really a sport. Kickboxers start early and begin training for the ring. Admittedly there are many Karate dojos that forgot what Karate is about and put far to much emphasis on forms and Katas, and neglect sparring. Kyokushing was created by Masutasu Oyama, because he was frustrated with the direction Karate was moving. It's an aggressive style, and many Oyama schools train full-contanct. Injuries are frequent. As I said, this style has produced champions in MMA(Hug and Rutten). I myself studied Shotokan, but I tailored it to my own needs, practicing sparing constantly.

[torquemada]

RKBB, do you see where most of us are coming from?  This is the MMA board.  Many of your comments can be taken as disrespect to MMA fighters because they aren't traditional martial artists.  Matt Hughes doesn't have a white belt, but he just defeated a legend (Gracie).  I respect Shotokan; I reached a purple belt in it before I realized that I hadn't learned shit about how to fight.  I knew kata out my ass and point sparring.  But to be successful as a MMA fighter today, you have to be well rounded and cross trained.  All the fighters would agree.  Bas teaches his own style now (WITH NO BELT SYSTEM).  This is a very resectful (mostly ) area of the GB boards; let me say I mean no disrespect.  I admire your discipline and devotion.


but, holy shit, I disagree re:MMA.





BTW, anyone in a MMA fight who punches from the hip for power will eat a jab, cross or overhand

[realkarateblackbelt]

RKBB, do you see where most of us are coming from?  This is the MMA board.  Many of your comments can be taken as disrespect to MMA fighters because they aren't traditional martial artists.  Matt Hughes doesn't have a white belt, but he just defeated a legend (Gracie).  I respect Shotokan; I reached a purple belt in it before I realized that I hadn't learned shit about how to fight.  I knew kata out my ass and point sparring.  But to be successful as a MMA fighter today, you have to be well rounded and cross trained.  All the fighters would agree.  Bas teaches his own style now (WITH NO BELT SYSTEM).  This is a very resectful (mostly ) area of the GB boards; let me say I mean no disrespect.  I admire your discipline and devotion.


but, holy shit, I disagree re:MMA.





BTW, anyone in a MMA fight who punches from the hip for power will eat a jab, cross or overhand

I understand your misdirected anger but you are wrong bro. MMA is not a style. MMA means just that - a mixture of martial arts. UFC fighters do not train in the "MMA STYLE" they train a little here with a boxing coach, a little here with a wrestling coach, a little here with a muay thai coach, or whatever it may be. MMA competition just means the competition is open to any style of fighting. Baroni is basically just a boxer. Is he dissing Pride by competing in a MMA competition. See how rediculous this is?

And you guys try to put words in my mouth when I agree with you. You try to force me to disagree because you want to argue. I already said many schools put to much emphasis on kata etc......Kyokushin was created by Oyama to restore Karate to it's original way becuase he hated the way things were heading. They don't do point sparring in Kyokushin. They do full contact.

....Punching from the hip (as I already said) is a power move. You lead with the jab and shift in to stance and perform the punch from the hip. In some styles you don't have to put your cocked fist on your hip - it's more in the technique of shifting the hips for power than the position of the hands. Bas has put it to good use in his fights with his palm strikes. I had to use it once when I was minding my own business and someone tried to mug me and dropped the guy like a sack of potatos.

[Oldschool Flip]

I don't think realkarateblackbelt will ever "give in" to MMA. He doesn't agree with the fighting styles and believes that if anyone one of them faced a Kyokushin of Shotokan karate master or black belt, that they would lose. As for you "knocking out" untrained people, most amatuer boxers could do the same.
 
Again your problem is with discipline and the time you spent learning an art and seeing all these "undisciplined" fighters getting attention and praises for the way they fight. Get over it.

If you are of the "Oyama" phylosophy, you should not disparage other arts and have courtesy at all times.

With this said go and study your Martial arts instead of posting on a message board.

[realkarateblackbelt]

I don't think realkarateblackbelt will ever "give in" to MMA. He doesn't agree with the fighting styles and believes that if anyone one of them faced a Kyokushin of Shotokan karate master or black belt, that they would lose. As for you "knocking out" untrained people, most amatuer boxers could do the same.
 
Again your problem is with discipline and the time you spent learning an art and seeing all these "undisciplined" fighters getting attention and praises for the way they fight. Get over it.

If you are of the "Oyama" phylosophy, you should not disparage other arts and have courtesy at all times.

With this said go and study your Martial arts instead of posting on a message board.

I don't think a UFC fighter should only do standup. The main point I'm trying to make is.....Kyokushin is very effective standup. It's generally full-contact. And it has produced some of the best champions in MMA competition.

[Oldschool Flip]

I don't think a UFC fighter should only do standup. The main point I'm trying to make is.....Kyokushin is very effective standup. It's generally full-contact. And it has produced some of the best champions in MMA competition.

No, your issue was with discipline when you started this thread. Need to remind you about it?

[Oldschool Flip]

I used to live the gay lifestyle until I found Jesus Christ. Now I am a straight man.When you put these pictures up you are actively encouraging homosexuality.

Okay now what?

[The Showstoppa]

I am a black belt in the Shotokan style of Karate. My father was also a black belt in Kyokushin/Okinanwan Karate and instructed me privately. I think people lack discipline today in the fight world. Few people stick with an art long enough to master it and obtain a black belt. Maybe they don't like kata? Who knows? I think it's part of that MTV culture. You know short attention spans. Alot of these guys I see on Spike TV look like high school jocks that decided to do a cycle and work with an instructer for a few months. Suddenly they think they are martial artist. They also throw what I call "wrestler punches" It almost looks fake. When we trained we punched from the hip not with the arm. The effect of piviting the hips correctly is devasting power. I knew guys in the karate scene that could smash through cement blocks. This kind of power can only be achieved through proper technique. The steroid use is rampant. I see guys like Ken Shamrock that look just muscular sometimes, and other times they are red and Jacked! A heart attack waiting to happen. I am 6' and 255 and I never used steroids. Nobody I new did either. Sorry for my rant.

hahaha, most of those "guys you see on Spike TV" would beat your eyes closed in about 30 seconds, you clown. Keep posing and doing your pilates/karate pal.

[texasRUSH]

i'm confused..this went from how mma has no discipline, etc. to where?!! 


are YOU my mommy?! 

[c-u-n-hell]

Karate, Katas, punch from the hips sweet and last year at band camp. Hey karate dude you spar full contact that is great. Good for you how long do you train a week 5 hours well MMA fighters do that a day in boxing and wrestling so what you do in a week we do in a day so you do the math. I am sure Matt Hughes and every other champion would do great in your sparring sessions. Why do you continue to debate this. Your points are cool I guess but remember something while you rave ad rant a roach can live for 5 days with out its head but you cant

[davinci]

im confused rkbb, you say mma is not a style but a combanation of styles? so if i order a peporoni pizza its a pizza, a mushroom pizza is a diff 'STYLE' pizza but if i order a peporoni and mushroom pizza "mixture of styles" is it still not a PIZZA? point im tryin to make is now wether you want to accept it or not mma is a style, sure it may b made up of other styles and takes from them what works best but is becoming a style of its own. if its not then why the hell am i enrolled in travis lutters "mma" class, why is it so many martial arts schools are now switchin to no belt systems? with a mixture of styles put together as one? what should they call it? brazillian jiu jitsu-muy thai-fu? come on things evolve man you should keep an open mind...

i know the point your makin about discipline, and thast fine for you, i understand the full contact power of your karate style, but you started this post about how todays fighters are young kids outta college who "took a cycle" and decided to throw sloppy punches and have no form. it sounds l ike your upset about this so why dont you once again change the face of the mma world and join in an mma match? gettin on this board thats is dedicated to mma and complainin about it isnt goin to solve anything. you remind me of the people who go to tito ortiz's web boards just to put him down and talk about how good another fighter is. it makes no sense....

[Oldschool Flip]

"Iron neck" oh brother, what a name, they named him that after his debut in "flamin pole-swallowers XIV" and to make himself feel better he says to himself, "I'm not really gay, It was the 70s and I was going through an experimental phase." hahahahahahahahahaha gayer than Melvin Anthony and King Kamali fighting over a corndog

It's now obvious that realkarateblackbelt is one of the "Squad". Embarassing and making a mockery of Karate and the Martial Arts just to get a rise out of themselves again. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.