Author Topic: Trouble in Afhanistan- I hope the Nato nations are taking stock of the situation (Read 2778 times)

bmacsys · « **on:** October 08, 2006, 09:54:23 AM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061008/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan

For once we have to stay the course. We owe the people in Afghanistan that much. What do you think Headhunter?

24KT · « **Reply #1 on:** October 08, 2006, 12:00:17 PM »

Not according to Republican house leader Bill Frist. He's calling for the Taliban to be welcomed as part of the Afghan gov.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=99351.0

GigantorX · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2006, 08:56:05 AM »

This is now a NATO run operation in Afghanistan. The offensive in the south was succesfull but the Taliban rebels still have sanctuaries in Pakistan, which is crucial for their survival. Also, the fact the Pakistan pulled out their forces from the border provinces does no bode well either. THis operation has exposed NATOs limited transport assests as well as their willingness to provide more troops. NATO cannot afford to lose this war.

OzmO · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:13:47 AM »

So now it's NATO battle to win and lose?

There we go, Afghanistan rises again.

What a waste from a group of bumbling idiots that call themselves leaders.

headhuntersix · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:00:02 AM »

My two cents from 7 months here...

Stop forcing western democracy on a country that never had it..perhaps restore the monarchy
Stop forcing womens rights....this pisses off the warlords and everybody that carries an AK
Forget drug interdiction....these people value food over western values..u can't eat a value
deal with the warlords...offer what the Taliban can't.....plenty of cash and allow them, to grow their poppies.
stop bombing villages and avoid operations in area's that are heavily populated..the civilians get killed and pisses eveybody off

These people are beggers..they will take from us until the next guy comes along. There is no loyalty to the central government unless u happen to belong to Karzi's tribe. We don't deal with the Pashtun's as we should. They aren't nice folks but we have to make a deal. Despite Jag and the rest of the Libs revisionist American history..we used to deal with bad folks and the world was safer for us...Now we try hoisting democracy and promoting rights for all. These people don't understand it. Its a mess over here..not because we made it..but because the folks here just really don't care. I don't have answers.

OzmO · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:05:49 AM »

Quote from: headhuntersix on October 10, 2006, 10:00:02 AM

My two cents from 7 months here...

Stop forcing western democracy on a country that never had it..perhaps restore the monarchy
Stop forcing womens rights....this pisses off the warlords and everybody that carries an AK
Forget drug interdiction....these people value food over western values..u can't eat a value
deal with the warlords...offer what the Taliban can't.....plenty of cash and allow them, to grow their poppies.
stop bombing villages and avoid operations in area's that are heavily populated..the civilians get killed and pisses eveybody off

These people are beggers..they will take from us until the next guy comes along. There is no loyalty to the central government unless u happen to belong to Karzi's tribe. We don't deal with the Pashtun's as we should. They aren't nice folks but we have to make a deal. Despite Jag and the rest of the Libs revisionist American history..we used to deal with bad folks and the world was safer for us...Now we try hoisting democracy and promoting rights for all. These people don't understand it. Its a mess over here..not because we made it..but because the folks here just really don't care. I don't have answers.

I agree with most of what you said there other then the poopy thing. Becuase at some point the herion ends up in the US. Could profits from a pipeline through the country replace income from poppy? Just curious. But who are we kidding, any profits from that pipe line will go into the pockets of those who built it and those politicians in the country who allowed it to happen.

headhuntersix · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:09:16 AM »

Bud..i agree about the drugs but there is nothing..nothing anybody can do about it. This is pretty much a narco state.

240 is Back · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2006, 11:42:49 AM »

In case you didn't know, the Taliban have been viable partners of the US since the late 1990s. They gave us the GPS coordinates to kill Bin Laden in Aug 1998. We negotiated with them in Spring 2001 to obtain oil pipeline rights. We declared them a rogue nation, removing their nation status in our eyes, when they demanded either proof that OBL did 911, or insisted upon a world trial (think Milosovic). Their insistence on actually seeing the evidence we said we had, somehow cost them their nation's soverignty.

I do find it odd that world experts agree that opium production dropped significantly, down over 90%, in the year after the Taliban took over. However, since we have occupied the country of Afghanistan, drug production is higher than ever. Some people believe that since most of those drugs come into US borders and actually do help our economy, we quietly allow it to happen. Others believe that the sophisticated US military presence and NATO forces are simply unable to keep up with the advanced tactics of uneducated sheepherders growing drugs in the open.

IMO, with all our Predator drones, spy satellites, etc, we should be able to find fields of poppies which take months to grow. The Taliban was able to do it without all our resources. Weird.

OzmO · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2006, 11:49:03 AM »

Quote from: 240 is Back on October 10, 2006, 11:42:49 AM

In case you didn't know, the Taliban have been viable partners of the US since the late 1990s. They gave us the GPS coordinates to kill Bin Laden in Aug 1998. We negotiated with them in Spring 2001 to obtain oil pipeline rights. We declared them a rogue nation, removing their nation status in our eyes, when they demanded either proof that OBL did 911, or insisted upon a world trial (think Milosovic). Their insistence on actually seeing the evidence we said we had, somehow cost them their nation's soverignty.

I do find it odd that world experts agree that opium production dropped significantly, down over 90%, in the year after the Taliban took over. However, since we have occupied the country of Afghanistan, drug production is higher than ever. Some people believe that since most of those drugs come into US borders and actually do help our economy, we quietly allow it to happen. Others believe that the sophisticated US military presence and NATO forces are simply unable to keep up with the advanced tactics of uneducated sheepherders growing drugs in the open.

IMO, with all our Predator drones, spy satellites, etc, we should be able to find fields of poppies which take months to grow. The Taliban was able to do it without all our resources. Weird.

Not really wierd when you come out of the cave and see the real world.... (allegory of the cave)

Hey, 240, did it happen yet? (baby)

240 is Back · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2006, 11:55:28 AM »

yep yep!!!!!!!!! i'm monster beat. 5 days in the hospital.

OzmO · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2006, 11:59:19 AM »

Quote from: 240 is Back on October 10, 2006, 11:55:28 AM

yep yep!!!!!!!!! i'm monster beat. 5 days in the hospital.

Congrats!

Wow 5 days? geez

240 is Back · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2006, 12:08:30 PM »

tell me bout it. went in thurs night, induced friday, labor went very long, ended up doing an emergency c-section, then infection set in, used antibiotics, etc. long long weekend.

congrats-- thanks!!!!!!!!!!!

JOHN MATRIX · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2006, 12:12:55 PM »

afghanistan has never really been a 'stable, peaceful' place at any point in its history. it has always been sort of a badlands. the terrain, climate and topography make it pretty much worthless for supporting a 'normal' nation....while at the same time providing an absolute haven for people who dot want to be found...lots of cliffs, caves, tunnel systems, ect.

if the might of the soviet union could not subjugate this place then a half-hearted attempt by the UN sure as hell isnt. its a place that cannot be tamed by aerial bombing, this has been proven yet again. it has always been kind of a wild place, and always will be. all we a re doing is wasting time and lives there trying to make it into something it will never ever be.

240 is Back · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2006, 12:20:41 PM »

Afghanistan alone could not defeat Russia. USSR should have crushed them in theory. The mujahadeen fought hard, but they were no match for the Russian military. Numbers, technology, intel, and more advanced weapontry should have made it a 6 month Russian cakewalk, which would have given the USSR the keys to what they thought was enough Caspian oil to last them 50 years, and a doormat for entry into other oil rich regions.

Of course, the Afghans could defeat them if they were given money, training, weapons, and intel from another superpower nation who would love to see the USSR miss out on its last big shot at financial stability and set the stage for a bankrupt commie empire a few years later.

JOHN MATRIX · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »

and they still have all those goodies, which are now being used against us. they did not have to 'defeat' russia...they just had to prevent them from successfully getting control of the place, which they did, without any airforce, no national army whatsoever, no tanks and heavy artillery, ect.
the key is the terrain, and their ability to use it. it is mountainous so the only way for the soviets to enter is to funnel all their machinery through narrow valleys which can be easily rained down on from ridges on the sides. their air superiority was useless because there was virtually no infrastructure to use it against, not opposing airforce to use it on, and no standard large troop formations to use it on. the camel jockeys would just go in their caves, let them blast everything in sight with their big modern weapons, wait till the dust settled, and sure enough here come the soviets, in a big line all concentrated in the valley below that they had just 'cleared' and 'secured'. then they all emerge from the caves, seemingly out of nowhere, and rain down fire like fish in a barrel on the troops below. this is why the soviets suffered such enormous casualties, because their modern equipment was neutralised by the terrain and the unconventional methods of the afghanis.

OzmO · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2006, 12:40:29 PM »

Quote from: JOHN MATRIX on October 10, 2006, 12:31:00 PM

and they still have all those goodies, which are now being used against us. they did not have to 'defeat' russia...they just had to prevent them from successfully getting control of the place, which they did, without any airforce, no national army whatsoever, no tanks and heavy artillery, ect.
the key is the terrain, and their ability to use it. it is mountainous so the only way for the soviets to enter is to funnel all their machinery through narrow valleys which can be easily rained down on from ridges on the sides. their air superiority was useless because there was virtually no infrastructure to use it against, not opposing airforce to use it on, and no standard large troop formations to use it on. the camel jockeys would just go in their caves, let them blast everything in sight with their big modern weapons, wait till the dust settled, and sure enough here come the soviets, in a big line all concentrated in the valley below that they had just 'cleared' and 'secured'. then they all emerge from the caves, seemingly out of nowhere, and rain down fire like fish in a barrel on the troops below. this is why the soviets suffered such enormous casualties, because their modern equipment was neutralised by the terrain and the unconventional methods of the afghanis.

Seems like similar things are happening in Iraq. $:-\$

240 is Back · « **Reply #16 on:** October 10, 2006, 01:10:37 PM »

Afghan rebels had intel. They knew where these troop regimins were heading, where the weak points were etc, from US satellite intel.

They had much better weapons than your standard AK. Those mortars they used for years don't just replenish themselves when they're hidnig in caves. An advanced supply chain was set into place to keep the soldiers fed, clothed, and armed, despite USSR's attempts to shut it down.

I see nothing wrong with the US keeping the USSR from tkaing over afghanistan. If Russia had been able to take Afgh, they would have annexed Iraq then iran next, and probably Kuwait/Syria. And eventually, maybe even Saudi Arabia. Any one nation who gains that much control over resources thru warfare is obviously a very bad thing...

Unless....

GigantorX · « **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2006, 01:59:45 PM »

Well, it is a NATO operation right now. Hell, NATO immediately invoked Article 5 right after Sept 11, 2001, which is an attack on one is an attack on all. THe operation is now under NATO command, so yes, it is NATOs battle to win or lose.
Also, Afghanistan was a place were the U.S. could finally hit back at the Communists for Vietnam and kill some Russian boys in large amounts. And we did, big time. Logistics, weapons, mortors, training, medical car, even fucking Tennesse mules were shipped over to carry all of it.The Egyptions, ISraelis, Chinese and British and Pakastanis were all in on this. And to defeat the dreaded Hind attack helicopter, the U.S. finally let the Afghans use the Stinger missile, which took out 7 /10 Hinds that it shot at.
And yes, this was the beginning of the end of the USSR, it was bankrupt and falling to pieces and this battle quickened its demise.
And lets not forget, before the US began throwing 1.2 billion dollars (600 mil from us and 600 mil from Saudi Arabia) The muji's were in dire trouble, the Soviets were not fighting to gain terroritory from them as much as it was an all out genocide. Without our help, they would have fallen. The country would be in a constant state of war, it always has been, but the Russians could have gotten the oil and scared the shit out of the larger M.E.
A great book to read on this was "Chralie Wilsons War" by George Crile. I had to read it for a foreign policy class a while ago and it is a wild book. Def. recommend it.

JOHN MATRIX · « **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2006, 02:57:06 PM »

yes they definitely had lots of western support. afghanistan would probably have fallen in the long run, but i dont think it would have ever been fully under control. the terrain and unique factors of the region helped as much as anything; western support alone didnt equal victory in korea or vietnam....

GigantorX · « **Reply #19 on:** October 10, 2006, 03:06:40 PM »

Actually, I wouldnt count Korea there. The original plan was for the country to be restored to its original borders, but as the U.S. forces steamrolled after Inchon the war became one for reunification. Good assesment though, and I agree the country would not have been your typical "satellite" state, but one that would be sucked dry through sheer military might than governmental rule.

Also, I think this should be pointed out. The Soviets, being a closed communist country with zero press/media freedoms, could carry out any war with brutality and genocide etc and never have to come to account for it through public pressure, demonstrations etc. The U.S. fought, often times, with one hand tied behind its back because of these pressures. Not saying Vietnam wasnt brutal, but I hope you get my point. Two different forms of goverment led to two different styles of war fighting.

JOHN MATRIX · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2006, 03:15:22 PM »

yes that makes sense as well. im not too knowledgeable on the korean war so im in no position to argue wih that.

bmacsys · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2006, 04:30:41 PM »

Quote from: GigantorX on October 10, 2006, 01:59:45 PM

A great book to read on this was "Chralie Wilsons War" by George Crile. I had to read it for a foreign policy class a while ago and it is a wild book. Def. recommend it.

Gigantor, what is the book about?

dookie · « **Reply #22 on:** October 10, 2006, 07:11:45 PM »

afghanistan is being forgotten because it has no oil. do you think we're in iraq for democratic reasons?

north korea offers us nothing, so why bomb them. on the other hand, iran is rich with black gold, so if they slip up, watch out.

the truth is, when your talking about midddle eastern politics, you must choose. peace or democracy. you cannot have both. and since the latter does not exist, we deal with the former. thats how it will always be, at least in our lifetime.

also why should afghans care about poppy production. i would guess an extremely small percentage of the people their actually use it. its not their problem. its a u.s. problem. put it this way. what would you do if you were over there.

headhuntersix · « **Reply #23 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:58:59 PM »

The poppies are everywhere. We did and operation with a foreign drug enforcement organization and our own DEA. I watched them burn some fields and they took a huge truck load of black tar away. The Drug dealers began planting IEDS soon after. We can't win. They fund the Taliban. And all that talk about the Taliban going after the opium was then... not now. Thats how they are funding the war.

GigantorX · « **Reply #24 on:** October 12, 2006, 03:33:58 PM »

bmacys, Charlie Wilsons War by George Crile about Texas Congressman Charlie Wilson and his personal crusade to help the Afghan Mujiahdeen in their fight against the Soviets. His was of funding, his personal meetings with the Pres. of Pakistan, the workings of the CIA and all the covert stuf in between. Truely astounding.