Hussein men 'buried inmates alive'

[Dos Equis]

What an animal.

Hussein men 'buried inmates alive'
POSTED: 10:34 a.m. EDT, October 9, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- Prison guards under Saddam Hussein used to bury detainees alive and watch women as they bathed, occasionally shooting over their heads, a former female prisoner testified Monday in the genocide trial of the ex-president.

Speaking in Kurdish through an Arabic interpreter, the 31-year-old witness recalled what she saw as a 13-year-old girl who was detained during Saddam's offensive against the Kurds in the late 1980s.

Saddam and his co-defendants are charged with genocide against Iraq's Kurdish population in a campaign branded Operation Anfal, in which an estimated 180,000 people were killed. If convicted, the accused could be condemned to death by hanging.

The woman, who testified behind a curtain and whose name was withheld apparently for fear of reprisal, said Iraqi government forces destroyed her Kurdish village in northern Iraq in 1988 and she and some family members were imprisoned in the south.

A prison warden she identified as Hajaj -- whose name has been given by earlier witnesses in the trial -- "used to drag women, their hands and feet shackled, and leave them in a scorching sun for several hours."

"Soldiers used to watch us bathe," said the woman. The guards also fired over the women's heads as they washed.

The woman said several relatives disappeared during the offensive against the Kurds. "I know the fate of my family (members). They were buried alive," she testified.

The prosecution presented the court with documents showing that remains of the women's relatives turned up in a mass grave.

"I'd like to ask Saddam: 'What crime did women and children commit'?" the woman said in court.

Saddam and his six co-defendants sat quietly in court Monday when their trial resumed after a 12-day break. They were not represented by lawyers.

Chief Judge Mohammed Oreibi al-Khalifa had declared a recess after a stormy session September 26 in which Saddam and his co-defendants were thrown out of court. The judge said then he wanted to give the defendants time to persuade their lawyers to end their boycott of the trial, or to confer with new ones.

On Sunday, Saddam's chief lawyer said he and his team would continue to boycott the trial to protest the removal of the first chief judge and the court's refusal to give the attorneys time to examine thousands of documents.

Lawyer Khalil al-Dulaimi said the decision to continue the boycott was made after he met with Saddam on October 2 and because of "repeated violations by the court."

A second witness, 41-year-old farmer Abdul-Hadi Abdullah Mohammed, told the court Monday his mother had died in detention and several other family members went missing in 1988 and were presumed dead. "The fate of my family is still unknown up to now," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/09/hussein.trial.ap/index.html

[Colossus_500]

That man is just pure EVIL!!!  I don't care what anyone has to say about how he went down.  He needed to go...PERIOD!

[Dos Equis]

That man is just pure EVIL!!!  I don't care what anyone has to say about how he went down.  He needed to go...PERIOD!

I agree.

[OzmO]

That man is just pure EVIL!!!  I don't care what anyone has to say about how he went down.  He needed to go...PERIOD!

There are all sorts of people that need to go.  Many criminals/muderers right in our own country.  And "How" he went doesn't really matter.  The issue here is what it's cost us to bring this guy down and what we have had to sacrifice to bring him down combined with what it's going to cost us to get out of this mess.

2700 Americans Dead
800 billion in debt
Thousands and thousands wounded
Terrorsim WORSE as a result!

How could we have changed this country if we put 800 billion into our education system?  But no, instead we sink it into invading a country unprovoked with a "STUPID" "INCOMPITENT" plan from Rumsfield. 

Ideals are wonderful from afar aren't they?

We can beat our "save a ho" drum all over the living room.  You should take a trip iRaq walk around and see how safe it is.  Then visit the 2700 moms who lost a son.  And then see if it was worth it to take down a dictator in a country on the other side of the world.  Perhaps you'll need to lose a friend to the war or a family member to see how stupid and wasteful this is.

[Dos Equis]

There are all sorts of people that need to go.  Many criminals/muderers right in our own country.  And "How" he went doesn't really matter.  The issue here is what it's cost us to bring this guy down and what we have had to sacrifice to bring him down combined with what it's going to cost us to get out of this mess.

2700 Americans Dead
800 billion in debt
Thousands and thousands wounded
Terrorsim WORSE as a result!

How could we have changed this country if we put 800 billion into our education system?  But no, instead we sink it into invading a country unprovoked with a "STUPID" "INCOMPITENT" plan from Rumsfield. 

Ideals are wonderful from afar aren't they?

We can beat our "save a ho" drum all over the living room.  You should take a trip iRaq walk around and see how safe it is.  Then visit the 2700 moms who lost a son.  And then see if it was worth it to take down a dictator in a country on the other side of the world.  Perhaps you'll need to lose a friend to the war or a family member to see how stupid and wasteful this is.

Two of my closet friends are on the ground right now and I've had several who have served in Iraq.  If any of them die my opinion will not change.  We just have different views on the war. 

[ATHEIST]

There are all sorts of people that need to go.  Many criminals/muderers right in our own country.  And "How" he went doesn't really matter.  The issue here is what it's cost us to bring this guy down and what we have had to sacrifice to bring him down combined with what it's going to cost us to get out of this mess.

2700 Americans Dead
800 billion in debt
Thousands and thousands wounded
Terrorsim WORSE as a result!

How could we have changed this country if we put 800 billion into our education system?  But no, instead we sink it into invading a country unprovoked with a "STUPID" "INCOMPITENT" plan from Rumsfield. 

Ideals are wonderful from afar aren't they?

We can beat our "save a ho" drum all over the living room.  You should take a trip iRaq walk around and see how safe it is.  Then visit the 2700 moms who lost a son.  And then see if it was worth it to take down a dictator in a country on the other side of the world.  Perhaps you'll need to lose a friend to the war or a family member to see how stupid and wasteful this is.

So what should we have done spent the money on ourselves and told the people under Sadams rule too bad so sad. and many of the parents who lost their son in the war are sad yeas but they are also very proud.
2700 thousand dead. compared to the thousands upon thousands that died and were tortured under that regime?
so we should have left him? the U.N wasnt doing anything to stop him.
The U.S is damned if we do and damned if we dont.
its easy for you to say that we should have left him when its not your mother or daughter getting rapped repeatedly by his guards.

[OzmO]

Two of my closet friends are on the ground right now and I've had several who have served in Iraq.  If any of them die my opinion will not change.  We just have different views on the war. 

I understand that. 

I just don't believe in senseless death to stop senseless death.

Afghanistan wasn't senseless.  It was well executed and minimized American deaths.  We invaded for the right reasons. 

Iraq, IMO, however wasn't for the right reasons.  And we squandered any credibility both domestically and abroad as a result of poor planning. 

At least if it was done right.  We could just be arguing whether or not it was morally justified to invade iRaq.  BUt now, 3 years later, Iraq is far worse off then it was during Sadaam.   

[Colossus_500]

I'm with BB on this issue.  

[OzmO]

So what should we have done spent the money on ourselves and told the people under Sadams rule too bad so sad. and many of the parents who lost their son in the war are sad yeas but they are also very proud.
2700 thousand dead. compared to the thousands upon thousands that died and were tortured under that regime?
so we should have left him? the U.N wasnt doing anything to stop him.
The U.S is damned if we do and damned if we dont.
its easy for you to say that we should have left him when its not your mother or daughter getting rapped repeatedly by his guards.

Thousands and thousand are dying right now!

Yeah,  we should have said, "too fucking bad" ....just like we've told Africa and the 300,000+ who have died there in the last 10 years from ethnic cleansing and civil war. 

And that's right it's not my mother and daughter getting raped......BUT IT IS MY CHILDREN WHO ARE INA SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT SUCKS ASS......forcing me to put them in private schools.  It is MY CHILDREN...  who are at danger from the common street thug, or serial killer, or child molester...  AND YES IT'S MY CHILDREN who are now facing a greater danger from terrorism becuase of the bumbling idiots who decided we needed to invaded Iraq with too few troops.


Got more news for you:  WE WEREN'T DAMMED IF WE HAD JUST LEFT IRAQ ALONE AND KEPT OUR THUMB ON IT LIKE HAD BEEN DOING.

It so stupid to see these people like yourself running around waving the "sadaam was a mnster and we had to stop him flag"  OPEN you dam eyes.  WE ONLY APPLY THAT BULLSHIT WHEN OUR COUNTRY HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM IT.    Don't be so naive.

[Dos Equis]

Thousands and thousand are dying right now!

Yeah,  we should have said, "too fucking bad" ....just like we've told Africa and the 300,000+ who have died there in the last 10 years from ethnic cleansing and civil war. 

And that's right it's not my mother and daughter getting raped......BUT IT IS MY CHILDREN WHO ARE INA SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT SUCKS ASS......forcing me to put them in private schools.  It is MY CHILDREN...  who are at danger from the common street thug, or serial killer, or child molester...  AND YES IT'S MY CHILDREN who are now facing a greater danger from terrorism becuase of the bumbling idiots who decided we needed to invaded Iraq with too few troops.


Got more news for you:  WE WEREN'T DAMMED IF WE HAD JUST LEFT IRAQ ALONE AND KEPT OUR THUMB ON IT LIKE HAD BEEN DOING.

It so stupid to see these people like yourself running around waving the "sadaam was a mnster and we had to stop him flag"  OPEN you dam eyes.  WE ONLY APPLY THAT BULLSHIT WHEN OUR COUNTRY HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM IT.    Don't be so naive.

You raise a valid point about our involvement in Africa, but we have taken steps to help stop some of the suffering, including Somalia and our food drops.  Arguably, we could have done more to stop ethnic cleansing. 

Re education and criminals in this country, you're essentially saying we have to address one problem and not the other.  I don't think our obligation to protect American citizens is tied to our obligation to help make the world a safer place.  The war isn't the cause of our sorry public school system.  Nor is the war the cause of crime in the U.S.  The war is not preventing the U.S. from addressing education and crime. 

Precisely what did we gain from the war in Iraq?  Other than the private "contracts" 240 has referenced, but hasn't read.   

[Colossus_500]

Re education and criminals in this country, you're essentially saying we have to address one problem and not the other.  I don't think our obligation to protect American citizens is tied to our obligation to help make the world a safer place.  The war isn't the cause of our sorry public school system.  Nor is the war the cause of crime in the U.S.  The war is not preventing the U.S. from addressing education and crime. 

These are the points that I wanted to make, but didn't quite know how to articulate.  It's true, they are separate issues.

[OzmO]

You raise a valid point about our involvement in Africa, but we have taken steps to help stop some of the suffering, including Somalia and our food drops.  Arguably, we could have done more to stop ethnic cleansing. 

This is why the arguement of "Sadaam's transgressions" as a reason for us to go to war doesn't hold.  The fact is, is we don't follow that line of responses all over the world.  We only do it when it benefets us.

Re education and criminals in this country, you're essentially saying we have to address one problem and not the other.  I don't think our obligation to protect American citizens is tied to our obligation to help make the world a safer place.  The war isn't the cause of our sorry public school system.  Nor is the war the cause of crime in the U.S.  The war is not preventing the U.S. from addressing education and crime. 
 

I'm not saying the "WAR" is a cuase for a poor public education system.  I'm simply saying that when schools are over crowded, teachers are under paid, and things like Art and Band programs are getting cut it's hard for me to see us spending 800 billion on a war we should have never been invovled in in the first place when we could take that money and put into our education system.  Have you seen where we rank in the international world lately as far as our students are concerned?

Re:  addressing one problem not another etc...    I believe in the old saying:  "Charity starts at home"  800 billion would go a long way into making this country great and it's greatness lasting for generations to come.

Precisely what did we gain from the war in Iraq?  Other than the private "contracts" 240 has referenced, but hasn't read.   

Are you saying American Comapnies haven't profited from Iraq?  Are you saying we didn't give out "no bid" contracts?  Are you saying Haliburton's (very overused example) stock hasn't dramatically increased due to contracts they gained from American invading Iraq?

[ATHEIST]

Thousands and thousand are dying right now!

Yeah,  we should have said, "too fucking bad" ....just like we've told Africa and the 300,000+ who have died there in the last 10 years from ethnic cleansing and civil war. 

And that's right it's not my mother and daughter getting raped......BUT IT IS MY CHILDREN WHO ARE INA SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT SUCKS ASS......forcing me to put them in private schools.  It is MY CHILDREN...  who are at danger from the common street thug, or serial killer, or child molester...  AND YES IT'S MY CHILDREN who are now facing a greater danger from terrorism becuase of the bumbling idiots who decided we needed to invaded Iraq with too few troops.


Got more news for you:  WE WEREN'T DAMMED IF WE HAD JUST LEFT IRAQ ALONE AND KEPT OUR THUMB ON IT LIKE HAD BEEN DOING.

It so stupid to see these people like yourself running around waving the "sadaam was a mnster and we had to stop him flag"  OPEN you dam eyes.  WE ONLY APPLY THAT BULLSHIT WHEN OUR COUNTRY HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM IT.    Don't be so naive.

[Dos Equis]

This is why the arguement of "Sadaam's transgressions" as a reason for us to go to war doesn't hold.  The fact is, is we don't follow that line of responses all over the world.  We only do it when it benefets us.


I'm not saying the "WAR" is a cuase for a poor public education system.  I'm simply saying that when schools are over crowded, teachers are under paid, and things like Art and Band programs are getting cut it's hard for me to see us spending 800 billion on a war we should have never been invovled in in the first place when we could take that money and put into our education system.  Have you seen where we rank in the international world lately as far as our students are concerned?

Re:  addressing one problem not another etc...    I believe in the old saying:  "Charity starts at home"  800 billion would go a long way into making this country great and it's greatness lasting for generations to come.

Are you saying American Comapnies haven't profited from Iraq?  Are you saying we didn't give out "no bid" contracts?  Are you saying Haliburton's (very overused example) stock hasn't dramatically increased due to contracts they gained from American invading Iraq?

I am certain some American companies have profited from the war in Iraq.  War always benefits some industry.  I don't know anything about the so-called "no-bid" contracts.  I don't know what they say, who the parties are, terms, the subject matter, compensation, how they are terminated, etc.  Do you?  Yes, I've read Halliburton’s stock has dramatically increased.  So what.  Are you saying we went to war in Iraq to benefit Halliburton?  

You and others have said we had ulterior motives to invade Iraq.  I haven't heard anyone provide one ulterior motive that wasn't based on wild innuendo.  When the war first started people said we went in to steal the oil.  When that turned out to be false, the argument morphed into Halliburton and "no bid" contracts.  Doesn't make any sense to me.  

[ATHEIST]

Thousands and thousand are dying right now!

Yeah,  we should have said, "too fucking bad" ....just like we've told Africa and the 300,000+ who have died there in the last 10 years from ethnic cleansing and civil war. 

And that's right it's not my mother and daughter getting raped......BUT IT IS MY CHILDREN WHO ARE INA SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT SUCKS ASS......forcing me to put them in private schools.  It is MY CHILDREN...  who are at danger from the common street thug, or serial killer, or child molester...  AND YES IT'S MY CHILDREN who are now facing a greater danger from terrorism becuase of the bumbling idiots who decided we needed to invaded Iraq with too few troops.


Got more news for you:  WE WEREN'T DAMMED IF WE HAD JUST LEFT IRAQ ALONE AND KEPT OUR THUMB ON IT LIKE HAD BEEN DOING.

It so stupid to see these people like yourself running around waving the "sadaam was a mnster and we had to stop him flag"  OPEN you dam eyes.  WE ONLY APPLY THAT BULLSHIT WHEN OUR COUNTRY HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM IT.    Don't be so naive.

So because we failed to help then, we should not do it in the future is that what we are saying? we should be confined to what we do by strictly what we have done or havent done in the past, so we shouldnt learn from our experiences of our past failures or successes?
 and if we never invaded Iraq i can conclude from what you are saying that your children would not be in danger from street thugs? and our educational system would be that much improved? you talk about the 800 billion spent on the war, and the incentives that Rumsfield has benefited from as if thats is the only source of corruption in our nation. there was as much corruption in the govt. before Bush took over it didnt start from this administration.
 "AND YES IT'S MY CHILDREN who are now facing a greater danger from terrorism because of the bumbling idiots who decided we needed to invaded Iraq with too few troops." so your problem is that we used too few troops? if we used more troops then we would have less threat of terrorism according to your logic.

and i know first hand that many kids who go through the current public school system that "sucks ass" according to you will be exceedingly successful in the future. dont blame the public school system, its not perfect or great but if used properly does help in producing highly productive and intelligent individuals. perhaps the fact that youre children need to go to a private school and that the public system that is utilized by so many other children including first generation kids whose first language isnt even English is not the root of the problem?? many kids going through the same public school system your kids could not will go on to do great things.

[OzmO]

So because we failed to help then, we should not do it in the future is that what we are saying?

No, I'm not talking about 1990.  I'm talking about in 2003, going in with 150K troops with no thought out plan, just a bunch of fatal assumptions.

 and if we never invaded Iraq i can conclude from what you are saying that your children would not be in danger from street thugs? and our educational system would be that much improved?

Well, even an uneducated person can figure out that when high schools are cancelling many programs like art and music.....  and calss room sizes are in the 30's then obviously part of 800 billion would go a long way in making our education system better.

you talk about the 800 billion spent on the war, and the incentives that Rumsfield has benefited from as if thats is the only source of corruption in our nation.

You are assuming that that's the only curruption I'm talking about here....  much like Rumsfield assumed we had enough troops to invade Iraq and maintain order and peace after we toppled the government.   Of course that's not the only corruption in the US.   But right now, that's a very obvous one.

 "AND YES IT'S MY CHILDREN who are now facing a greater danger from terrorism because of the bumbling idiots who decided we needed to invaded Iraq with too few troops." so your problem is that we used too few troops? if we used more troops then we would have less threat of terrorism according to your logic.

Although i was against invading Iraq from the beggining, YES.  If we used more troops like triple as much or more, the pillaging of government & city buildings  wouldn't have occured....  we would have had a stronger presence in every city and major road.  We could have nip the insurgency in the bud before it gained momentum....  now look at it.   Terrorism is worse now becuase we didn;t do the job right in Iraq.  Iraq now is a major haven for terrorist.  If that wasn't true, sir, then we wouldn't be losing an average of 5 US soldiers a day.

Fact is, we let the Iraqi people down.... by our bumbling incompitence.

and i know first hand that many kids who go through the current public school system that "sucks ass" according to you will be exceedingly successful in the future. dont blame the public school system, its not perfect or great but if used properly does help in producing highly productive and intelligent individuals. perhaps the fact that youre children need to go to a private school and that the public system that is utilized by so many other children including first generation kids whose first language isnt even English is not the root of the problem?? many kids going through the same public school system your kids could not will go on to do great things.

Are you living in a dream world?  have you seen how are kids compare to the rest of the world?  We suck ass. Why?  Becuase our school system is over burdened and under funded.  What world are you living in?

Are we not the richest greatest country in the world?  Then shouldn't we have the best education system?  No, instead we go and play BRain washed cop around the world.  BRILLIANT!

[OzmO]

I am certain some American companies have profited from the war in Iraq.  War always benefits some industry.  I don't know anything about the so-called "no-bid" contracts.  I don't know what they say, who the parties are, terms, the subject matter, compensation, how they are terminated, etc.  Do you?  Yes, I've read Halliburton’s stock has dramatically increased.  So what.  Are you saying we went to war in Iraq to benefit Halliburton? 

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/082903B.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/25/60minutes/main551091.shtml

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/no_bid_and_no_problem.php


http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1010/p02s01-usfp.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/28/AR2005112801735.html


Remember,  You asked what we gain from invading Iraq and setting up a democratic goverment:

Our companies profit from contracts with the new Iraqi government and ours. 

we get more of a military presence in the gulf.

Also, you tell me if a no-bid contract smells of corruption or not?  Did someone or somegroup get paid off hansomely?

You and others have said we had ulterior motives to invade Iraq.  I haven't heard anyone provide one ulterior motive that wasn't based on wild innuendo.  When the war first started people said we went in to steal the oil.  When that turned out to be false, the argument morphed into Halliburton and "no bid" contracts.  Doesn't make any sense to me.   

We never went into Iraq to "take" control of the oil directly.  That's hasn't been the way we do things.  What we do is install what ever government will honor contracts we make with the disrtibution of their resources and in turn people in the that government get paid off.  What happens then is that country never really benefits from it.   It's one of the reason we are the richest country int he world.  I don't exactly have a problem with it in most cases, becuase that business.  But in this case, whether it was really our motive or not, i don't agree with invading a country to do it.  Why do you think right after the war France was all willing to "go in and help?"  They wanted some of the action 

[ToxicAvenger]

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pot.html


ever wonder why we didn't go after this guy???


orrrr


ever wonder why saddam ws an ally before..i mean he waaas killing folks then also no?


soo do tell..what magic number of people did he have to kill for us to consider him bad?


i'm all ears...oh do tell...



saddam ws evil and i'm glad he is gonna die...but dont bullshit me and insult my intelligence by telling me the war ws some kinda telescopic philanthropy on bushes part...


see how i give him a compliment and insult him at the same time in the above sentence??

nooo you dont..u r republicans

 

[haider]

Wow, there's evil people in the world?!!    (Ozmo makes some fine points)

[Dos Equis]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/082903B.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/25/60minutes/main551091.shtml

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/no_bid_and_no_problem.php


http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1010/p02s01-usfp.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/28/AR2005112801735.html


Remember,  You asked what we gain from invading Iraq and setting up a democratic goverment:

Our companies profit from contracts with the new Iraqi government and ours. 

we get more of a military presence in the gulf.

Also, you tell me if a no-bid contract smells of corruption or not?  Did someone or somegroup get paid off hansomely?

We never went into Iraq to "take" control of the oil directly.  That's hasn't been the way we do things.  What we do is install what ever government will honor contracts we make with the disrtibution of their resources and in turn people in the that government get paid off.  What happens then is that country never really benefits from it.   It's one of the reason we are the richest country int he world.  I don't exactly have a problem with it in most cases, becuase that business.  But in this case, whether it was really our motive or not, i don't agree with invading a country to do it.  Why do you think right after the war France was all willing to "go in and help?"  They wanted some of the action 

We don't control their oil directly or indirectly.  Ozmo, claiming that the U.S. went to war in Iraq so a couple of private U.S. companies could get private contracts that can be terminated at any time doesn't make any sense.  It doesn't give the U.S. control of anything.  Contracts can always be broken.  That theory doesn't hold up. 

[OzmO]

We don't control their oil directly or indirectly.  Ozmo, claiming that the U.S. went to war in Iraq so a couple of private U.S. companies could get private contracts that can be terminated at any time doesn't make any sense.  It doesn't give the U.S. control of anything.  Contracts can always be broken.  That theory doesn't hold up. 

You don't think people were placed in high government positions with the new Iraqi government who can insure American companies keep those contracts?  Those people are placed there and they are paid dividens.

You don't think we are more economically and financially in control with this new iraqi government than with sadaam?   You don't think we stronly influence economic import/export policy in the new iraq government?   

We didn't go to war for that sole purpose.

I outlined why we went there.

My main point about "why" we went there is that we didn't do it becuase:

-  we wanted to spread democracy (72% of Iraqis think we are causing more problems by being there.  should we follow our own priciple of democracy and get out or does that only apply when it's convinient for us?)
-  There were WMD's
-  Or we wanted to "free" the Iraqi people.

Becuase of 9/11 we saw an opportunity to get what i outlined above.  So Bush and his merry men sold the American people a "poop in plastic bags"  and many people bought hook line and sinker and still believe it today.

[ATHEIST]

No, I'm not talking about 1990.  I'm talking about in 2003, going in with 150K troops with no thought out plan, just a bunch of fatal assumptions.
 so you ARE saying that we have to be consistant...we failed to help in the past so therefore we must always fail to help. our past should restrict what we do now in in the future?

Well, even an uneducated person can figure out that when high schools are cancelling many programs like art and music.....  and calss room sizes are in the 30's then obviously part of 800 billion would go a long way in making our education system better.
 who is to say that all that money would have gone to education and not just gobbled up by the govt. in some other way? you are assuming that the money would have gone directly to the schools and thats not how it works, it never worked like that. and how was our educationsal system all those years when we werent at war? it was still well below that of those in Aisa.
 

You are assuming that that's the only curruption I'm talking about here....  much like Rumsfield assumed we had enough troops to invade Iraq and maintain order and peace after we toppled the government.   Of course that's not the only corruption in the US.   But right now, that's a very obvous one.
 no youre assuming that thats the only type of corruption that has ever taken place. now your being naive.

Although i was against invading Iraq from the beggining, YES.  If we used more troops like triple as much or more, the pillaging of government & city buildings  wouldn't have occured....  we would have had a stronger presence in every city and major road.  We could have nip the insurgency in the bud before it gained momentum....  now look at it.   Terrorism is worse now becuase we didn;t do the job right in Iraq.  Iraq now is a major haven for terrorist.  If that wasn't true, sir, then we wouldn't be losing an average of 5 US soldiers a day.
 so youre against the invation of Iraq but think we should have used more troops? and how do you know that if we used more troops there would be less terrorism? its not academic like that.

Fact is, we let the Iraqi people down.... by our bumbling incompitence.
 Fact is we have given the Iraqi people an opportunity, i have three sibblings who are there now or were there recently. they see far more support from the Iraqi people than what is showed on TV. strange how good news isnt so popular. you are assuming we let the people down, you dont know that. im getting my information form people who are/were there. not to say that other soldiers havent experienced the opposite however im just relaying what i heard.

Are you living in a dream world?  have you seen how are kids compare to the rest of the world?  We suck ass. Why?  Becuase our school system is over burdened and under funded.  What world are you living in?
 what world are you living in our kids were always behind in math and science for as long as i can remeber. how many times have i met,seen a kid or gone to school with a kid that couldnt speak english to save his life but knew math and science like the back of his hand. the fact that kids in other countries have less freedoms and opportunities than our kids drives them to want to excell. and so before we invaded Iraq and wasted the 800 billion our kids were ahead of other kids in other countries? or perhaps could it be a continually down ward affect that has been going on the past few decades hmmmm. or may be youre right it could have just started in 03'.

Are we not the richest greatest country in the world?  Then shouldn't we have the best education system?  No, instead we go and play BRain washed cop around the world.  BRILLIANT!

yes we are the richest country in the world so according to you we should
be #1 in education- we are not..never were. so we should be # 1 in everything across the board then huh? becuase we have the money. well we have always been the riches country in the world but never # 1 across the board which is what your train of thought is.

[ATHEIST]

shit sorry.

[ATHEIST]

You don't think people were placed in high government positions with the new Iraqi government who can insure American companies keep those contracts?  Those people are placed there and they are paid dividens.

You don't think we are more economically and financially in control with this new iraqi government than with sadaam?   You don't think we stronly influence economic import/export policy in the new iraq government?   

We didn't go to war for that sole purpose.

I outlined why we went there.

My main point about "why" we went there is that we didn't do it becuase:

-  we wanted to spread democracy (72% of Iraqis think we are causing more problems by being there.  should we follow our own priciple of democracy and get out or does that only apply when it's convinient for us?)
-  There were WMD's
-  Or we wanted to "free" the Iraqi people.

Becuase of 9/11 we saw an opportunity to get what i outlined above.  So Bush and his merry men sold the American people a "poop in plastic bags"  and many people bought hook line and sinker and still believe it today.

ok ok some of what you are saying does make snese Ozmo...its just too "conspiracy theorist for me"

[Dos Equis]

You don't think people were placed in high government positions with the new Iraqi government who can insure American companies keep those contracts?  Those people are placed there and they are paid dividens.

You don't think we are more economically and financially in control with this new iraqi government than with sadaam?   You don't think we stronly influence economic import/export policy in the new iraq government?   

We didn't go to war for that sole purpose.

I outlined why we went there.

My main point about "why" we went there is that we didn't do it becuase:

-  we wanted to spread democracy (72% of Iraqis think we are causing more problems by being there.  should we follow our own priciple of democracy and get out or does that only apply when it's convinient for us?)
-  There were WMD's
-  Or we wanted to "free" the Iraqi people.

Becuase of 9/11 we saw an opportunity to get what i outlined above.  So Bush and his merry men sold the American people a "poop in plastic bags"  and many people bought hook line and sinker and still believe it today.

No I don't believe the U.S. put people in the Iraqi government who will ensure whatever private contracts Iraq has with private U.S. companies will never be broken.  That's an example of the wild innuendo I mentioned earlier.  We might influence Iraq's imports/exports, like we probably do with many other countries, but the only thing they have of any real value is oil, and we don't control their oil.  

Also, we already had a military presence in Germany, Spain, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, so we didn't need a base in Iraq.  That isn't why we went to war.