Author Topic: Absurdism  (Read 1657 times)

Cavalier22

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Absurdism
« on: October 12, 2006, 01:40:59 PM »
I have often been in this train of thought before I had ever heard of "absurdism" or Kierkegaard.   What are your feelings on this? 

I will use wikipedia to paraphrase, I am not the best at explaining my thoughts on certain subjects (perhaps because I don't really understand them at all).

"Humans historically attempt to find meaning in the universe, according to Absurdism. This search traditionally follows one of two paths: either concluding that life is meaningless and what we have is the here and now, or filling the void with a purpose set forth by some higher power, often a belief in God or adherence to a religion. However, even with a spiritual power as the answer to meaning, another question is posed: What is the purpose of God? Kierkegaard believed that there is no human-comprehendable purpose of God, making faith in God absurd."

I don't think it is hard to argue for most unbiased thinkers that the whole concept of "God", or a higher power, or the life force, etc, is at the most basic level beyond human comprehension (at least without supernatural power or understanding coupled with years of experience). By beyond human comprehension I mean any motives, logic, or sense of this spiritual power is entirely beyond any of our realms of experience or wisdom. 

Any seemingly flawless philosophical (human) logic or rational that we think could not apply to this higher plane of existence.  Alternatively, many with faith were either brought up that way or had certain life events that pushed them towards accepting faith into a higher power in their life. 

With few exceptions, all "faithful people" that I know were either raised as such or experienced certain life crisis's before they became truly %100 devoted to their respective beliefs or faith.

What are your thoughts?  I just think this is an interesting view on the matter.

Valhalla awaits.

Butterbean

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Re: Absurdism
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2006, 04:05:31 PM »
Very interesting Cavalier!


Kierkegaard believed that there is no human-comprehendable purpose of God, making faith in God absurd."



Kierkegaard believes the above, that no human (presumably on earth or that has ever lived) can comprehend the purpose of God, and so he concludes faith in God is absurd.

I think just from a logic point of view this is flawed.  That is a broad, sweeping generalization.

First, how does he know that, for instance, John the Baptist or present day Ungutu in the Congo doesn't know the purpose of God?  Just because Kierkegaard doesn't know it (nor anyone else he asked about it) doesn't mean no one else does, or ever did.  Based on his flawed requirement, his conclusion that faith in God is absurd then is absurd.



I don't think it is hard to argue for most unbiased thinkers that the whole concept of "God", or a higher power, or the life force, etc, is at the most basic level beyond human comprehension (at least without supernatural power or understanding coupled with years of experience). By beyond human comprehension I mean any motives, logic, or sense of this spiritual power is entirely beyond any of our realms of experience or wisdom. 

Any seemingly flawless philosophical (human) logic or rational that we think could not apply to this higher plane of existence. 



Let's say the "whole concept" of God IS beyond all human comprehension.  The limits of human comprehension do not make something cease to exist, or to never have existed, just because we can't understand it fully.  To believe that it does would be incredibly prideful.



Cavalier22, I found this that may help see another side too (from Probe Ministries):

First, there would seem to be an important difference between the two questions, "Why does the universe exist?", and "Why does God exist?" Today, most scientists and philosophers believe that the universe had a beginning; it is not eternal. However, if God exists at all, He exists necessarily and is therefore eternal. Thus, even though each question is asking WHY something exists, they are each asking this about very different kinds of things.

Second, it's important for us to remember that purposes can only exist within a mind. The dictionary on my desk defines "purpose" as follows: 1. something one has in mind to get or do; plan; aim; intention. 2. object or end for which a thing is made, done, used, etc. Clearly, nothing which lacks a mind can have purposes of this sort. Whatever purpose there is for the existence of impersonal things must come from intelligent, purposeful beings. As a general rule, such beings would also be personal. Here I am thinking primarily of man, but also of God and the angels if they exist. Of course, some higher animals may have what might be described as very limited sorts of purposes for some of the things which they do. But generally speaking, purposes are the products of intelligent, personal beings.

Thus, if the universe is simply a "brute fact," and was not brought into existence by a purposeful, intelligent being, there can be no ultimate purpose for its existence. If nothing exists outside the universe then clearly, going back to the previously given definition of purpose, there can be no object or end for which the universe came into existence. The universe can only have some ultimate purpose if it was created by an intelligent being who, in fact, had some purpose in making it.

However, when we come to the question which you were asked, "What is the ultimate purpose of God's existence?", we need to pause and consider exactly what we are being asked. I think you are correct in seeing this question as a variant of that other, often-asked question, "Who made God?" While such questions can be asked, I honestly doubt whether they are truly meaningful.

In the case of the question, "Who made God?", the questioner seems to be assuming that whatever exists requires a cause of its existence. But this is not true. Actually, it is only what BEGINS to exist that requires a cause. The universe began to exist; therefore, the universe requires a cause of its existence. But God never began to exist; He is eternal. It is therefore meaningless to ask "Who made God?", for what is really being asked is something like "Who made the Unmade Maker?", or "Who created the Uncreated Creator?" Clearly such questions are meaningless.

I believe that the question, "What is the ultimate purpose of God's existence?" or "Why does God exist?", is probably a similar sort of question. If the Christian God exists, then He is eternal. It is therefore unnecessary to posit a cause of His existence. Furthermore, if the Christian God exists, then He is the Creator of everything (other than Himself, of course!).

But now go back to our definition of "purpose" mentioned earlier and remember that, since God is the eternal, Uncreated Creator of all that exists, there was clearly no one other than God who might have had a purpose for bringing Him into existence. Additionally, it would also be meaningless to ask what purpose God had for bringing Himself into existence. The notion of a self-caused being is absurd. In order for a being to cause its own existence, it would first have to exist - which is obviously absurd. But if the purpose of God's existence cannot be explained by reference to an intelligent, purposeful being other than God, and if it can also not be explained by referring to a self-creative act of God Himself, I conclude that the question is probably meaningless.

Thus, while one can meaningfully ask about God's purpose(s) in creating the universe (and thus about the reason WHY the universe exists), one cannot meaningfully ask this question about God Himself. Probably, the question is simply meaningless. But if not, we could not possibly know "the ultimate purpose of God's existence" unless He tells us--and so far as I'm aware, He hasn't done so.

Hope this helps.

Shalom,

Michael Gleghorn
Probe Ministries


 

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Deedee

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Re: Absurdism
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2006, 07:37:29 AM »
"Humans historically attempt to find meaning in the universe, according to Absurdism. This search traditionally follows one of two paths: either concluding that life is meaningless and what we have is the here and now, or filling the void with a purpose set forth by some higher power, often a belief in God or adherence to a religion. However, even with a spiritual power as the answer to meaning, another question is posed: What is the purpose of God? Kierkegaard believed that there is no human-comprehendable purpose of God, making faith in God absurd."

With all respect, you've basically chopped the fundamentals of Kierkegaard's existential and absurdist theories in half, and the paragraph you have up there is highly misleading without the one that should subsequently follow it. Kierkegaard was a very religious, pious man.

Quote
Kierkegaard believes the above, that no human (presumably on earth or that has ever lived) can comprehend the purpose of God, and so he concludes faith in God is absurd.

Same with this statement.  This was not what Kierkegaard had in mind at all.  Studied Kierkegaard for a semester before I transferred into something a little less sleep-coma inducing, so I won't write my own understandings of his teachings, but here's a pretty concise, clear explanation of his concept of absurdism in faith.


QUICK INTRO

Kierkegaard styled himself above all as a religious poet. The religion to which he sought to relate his readers is Christianity. The type of Christianity that underlies his writings is a very serious strain of Lutheran pietism informed by the dour values of sin, guilt, suffering, and individual responsibility. Kierkegaard was immersed in these values in the family home through his father, whose own childhood was lived in the shadow of Herrnhut pietism in Jutland. Kierkegaard's father subsequently became a member of the lay Congregation of Brothers [Brødremenighed] in Copenhagen, which he and his family attended in addition to the sermons by Bishop J. P. Mynster.
For Kierkegaard Christian faith is not a matter of regurgitating church dogma. It is a matter of individual subjective passion, which cannot be mediated by the clergy or by human artefacts. Faith is the most important task to be achieved by a human being, because only on the basis of faith does an individual have a chance to become a true self. This self is the life-work which God judges for eternity.

BASICS

Christian dogma, according to Kierkegaard, embodies paradoxes which are offensive to reason. The central paradox is the assertion that the eternal, infinite, transcendent God simultaneously became incarnated as a temporal, finite, human being (Jesus). There are two possible attitudes we can adopt to this assertion, viz. we can have faith, or we can take offense. What we cannot do, according to Kierkegaard, is believe by virtue of reason. If we choose faith we must suspend our reason in order to believe in something higher than reason. In fact we must believe by virtue of the absurd.

Much of Kierkegaard's authorship explores the notion of the absurd: Job gets everything back again by virtue of the absurd (Repetition); Abraham gets a reprieve from having to sacrifice Isaac, by virtue of the absurd (Fear and Trembling); Kierkegaard hoped to get Regine back again after breaking off their engagement, by virtue of the absurd (Journals); Climacus hopes to deceive readers into the truth of Christianity by virtue of an absurd representation of Christianity's ineffability; the Christian God is represented as absolutely transcendent of human categories yet is absurdly presented as a personal God with the human capacities to love, judge, forgive, teach, etc. Kierkegaard's notion of the absurd subsequently became an important category for twentieth century existentialists, though usually devoid of its religious associations.

According to Johannes Climacus, faith is a miracle, a gift from God whereby eternal truth enters time in the instant.

................

Crucial to the miracle of Christian faith is the realization that over against God we are always in the wrong.




Here's a link in case you're interested in getting a condensed version from the Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kierkegaard/#Reli

Cavalier22

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Re: Absurdism
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2006, 08:40:01 AM »
thank you for the responses. 

I have only read a few excerts of Kierk. and should not have put a generalized wiki entry on here.  But it did get some discussion that I have found very thought provoking.

My initial attraction to this absurdism notion is that it, in its overgeneralized form, is close to what I find myself believing from time to time.  There is, or it seems like there has to be, an eternal higher being of which I personally am incapable of comprehending. Our whole notion of 'everything must have a beginning or be made by something else", or any other human notion or reasoning, does not seem like it could be applied to this higher being who is completely and utterly beyond any earthly or human realm of wisdom. 

Much of organized religion to me, ( i was raised a strict Catholic and was an altar boy) just never really satisfied me.  Parts of what I was taught, particularly stories regarding the God of the old testament, just seemed to me like any other mythology; i.e. human inventions.   I just have a hard time believing a certain people would be the chosen ones over other human beings who experience the same sufferings and tribulations that go along with the human condition.  It just strikes me as ridiculous.

Of course, that thinking seems to suggest I would have any concept of God's plan or motives, which the more I think about it strikes me as impossible if not illogical.  Again, other people have had experiences that I have not and may speak on how that affected their faith.
Valhalla awaits.

Deedee

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Re: Absurdism
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2006, 09:30:54 AM »
My initial attraction to this absurdism notion is that it, in its overgeneralized form, is close to what I find myself believing from time to time.  There is, or it seems like there has to be, an eternal higher being of which I personally am incapable of comprehending. Our whole notion of 'everything must have a beginning or be made by something else", or any other human notion or reasoning, does not seem like it could be applied to this higher being who is completely and utterly beyond any earthly or human realm of wisdom. 

Thanks for posting it! What a change from "no you're stupid, no you're stupid" threads.

I think this is closer to the essence of Kierkegaard's work.  Wouldn't mind tackling it in more depth, as I find myself wondering much the same as you stated in your post. (I know I said sleep-coma inducing earlier, I just have a hard time thinking in a logical/linear manner, so class was difficult. :-\)