Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.

[Max_Rep]

Would some of you people recognize the true theory of hypertrophy if you saw it? The point is what is the test of truth of any theory? Well, in bodybuilding it surely is whether that theory can produce the results it claims. HST and HIT and Heavy Duty and every other theory has failed to generate continuous growth in believers. What happens is that those who do not make gains blame the theory.

One fact that cannot be disputed is that Arthur Jones helped generate additional size on already huge Sergio Oliva. So, what Arthur said cannot easily be dismissed. That success has to be part of the true hypertrophy theory.

Casey and Sergio were known volume trainers and known steroid users. Read below on Sergio and Jones.

The September 2002 Issue of Ironman had an interview with “The Sandwich” (TS) and Sergio Oliva. Here are a few direct excerpts from the interview.

TS: What were your impressions of Arthur Jones?

Sergio  Oliva:  Oh, Arthur Jones is a terrific man. A very honest and smart man. He was the only one who offered everybody a lot of money to go to Deland Florida to train with him. He also was the first one to find out how big our biceps really were. Arthur measured my head, and it was smaller than my arm! (laughs) It is true I was weighing in at my biggest and at my best when I was training with Arthur.

Max Rep commentary… so now your thinking well Arthur Jones is the father of HIT so Sergio got his biggest and best using HIT right? And he was “paid a lot of money by Jones “just to train”. Being photographed on HIS equipment. Nice. 

TS: Tell us how you did it.

Sergio Oliva: My routine was basic –– and the same for nearly all body parts. The only difference was weight. But even so I used a good amount of weight because I didn’t like to go too light.

TS: How about sets and reps?

Sergio Oliva: I did lots of sets –– 32 sets just for chest, for example –– with a variety of exercises. I trained chest and other body parts twice a week.

Max Rep commentary… does THAT sound like low volume HIT that Jones advocated?  32 sets for body parts. But let’s continue later on in the interview.

TS: I know you never went to failure on your sets, but how do you feel about Mike Mentzers style of HIT training?

Sergio Oliva: Mike and all of those guys had a great routine and were very strong. Arthur did things a little different and so did I.  No one routine works for all, and I’ve seen many variations. Bodybuilding is suited for the individual athlete in more ways that one.

Max Rep commentary… keep reading this next statement nails it.

At one point in the interview Sergio is talking about diet and says “Sometimes I make six to twelve whole eggs and mix them in with white rice. That’s a lot of protein. I then eat my fruit and work out. I would work out hard for 3 ˝ hours.

Max Rep commentary… 32 sets on a body part. Body parts 2 times a week. Workout length 3 ˝ hours. Yup that sounds like Jones style training the way we’ve been sold it to me! 

[Vince B]

Max Rep, your last post quoting Sergio Oliva is quite inaccurate if you are trying to suggest how Arthur Jones trained him. You are implying that Sergio did 32 sets for a bodypart and trained for 3 1/2 hours each workout. That is hogwash and you know it. That is the worst example of journalism I have seen on Getbig for some time. To me that is intellectual dishonesty.

The workouts Arthur had Sergio do were absolutely brutal and the account is a great read. Jones combined Nautilus machine training with free weights and came up with workouts that almost destroyed Sergio. For thighs Sergio warmed up on a Leg Press exercise and went to failure with a heavy weight. He raced over to do leg extensions with heaps of plates for as many reps as he could then without resting did something like 10 or 15 reps full squatting with something like 400 pounds. The first time Sergio tried to duplicate Casey's workout he collapsed when he decended in the first rep of the squat. Eventually he was able to perform that super-human tri-set. It is clear that few people were capable of training that hard. Jones had a champion bodybuilder who's pride was at stake and he was motivated to defeat Arnold who he had lost to in the Olympia. Jones knew exactly what was required to make Sergio larger and he succeeded magnificently.

Compare Sergio's condition in 1972 to Dorian's in 1993.

[AVBG]

Max Rep, your last post quoting Sergio Oliva is quite inaccurate if you are trying to suggest how Arthur Jones trained him. You are implying that Sergio did 32 sets for a bodypart and trained for 3 1/2 hours each workout. That is hogwash and you know it. That is the worst example of journalism I have seen on Getbig for some time. To me that is intellectual dishonesty.

The workouts Arthur had Sergio do were absolutely brutal and the account is a great read. Jones combined Nautilus machine training with free weights and came up with workouts that almost destroyed Sergio. For thighs Sergio warmed up on a Leg Press exercise and went to failure with a heavy weight. He raced over to do leg extensions with heaps of plates for as many reps as he could then without resting did something like 10 or 15 reps full squatting with something like 400 pounds. The first time Sergio tried to duplicate Casey's workout he collapsed when he decended in the first rep of the squat. Eventually he was able to perform that super-human tri-set. It is clear that few people were capable of training that hard. Jones had a champion bodybuilder who's pride was at stake and he was motivated to defeat Arnold who he had lost to in the Olympia. Jones knew exactly what was required to make Sergio larger and he succeeded magnificently.

Compare Sergio's condition in 1972 to Dorian's in 1993.

I like you Vince, But do you know what gives me the shits VB? Posts like the above... Earlier in the thread you carry on how drugs have ruined BB, yadda yadda yadda..

Then you post alleged Hypertrophy workouts of Sergio/Viator.. Now you tell me, how is any natural or clean trainee supposed to benefit from copying or emulating these workouts?? when these guys were juiced to their eyeballs.

[The Luke]

Max Rep, your last post quoting Sergio Oliva is quite inaccurate if you are trying to suggest how Arthur Jones trained him. You are implying that Sergio did 32 sets for a bodypart and trained for 3 1/2 hours each workout. That is hogwash and you know it. That is the worst example of journalism I have seen on Getbig for some time. To me that is intellectual dishonesty.

Well said Vince,

Max_Rep should know that the details of Arthur Jones training Sergio are a matter of record... many witnesses have attested to the nature of the training involved.

Max_Rep's post IS completely dishonest: it's a cut and paste job from an old interview Sergio gave in which Sergio's answers have been taken out of context and replaced with answers to different questions.

Sergio made the point in that interview that he trained very high volume with lots of partial reps till he went down to Deland, Florida... With Arthur Jones, Sergio trained exclusively HIT style and achieved what he himself considered his best ever physique.

If you'd read the entire interview you would also note that Sergio credits HIT with being THE most effective training method that he ever used... if memory serves, I remember Sergio also pointed out that the biggest regret of his bodybuilding career was not sticking with Arthur Jones and eclipsing Arnold completely... I also remeber that Sergio said he utilised Arthur's HIT techniques in his free weight workouts when he returned to training on his own... (although he did admit having to slightly increase the volume to compensate for the lack of equipment).

What Arthur Jones managed to do was greatly improve the physiqes of steroid using volume trainers with brief, infrequent, high intensity workouts... Ellington Darden (www.drdarden.com) has been doing the same with scores of natural trainees for decades now.

To my knowledge no one has ever managed to improve the physique of a dedicated HIT advocate via volume training. That should tell us something.

For the record, the vast majority of heavily muscled (relatively speaking) naturals are HIT trainers (the rest are low volume higher intensity types)... I can't think of a single notable natural volume trainer... that should also tell us something.
 
The Luke

[Vince B]

I am responding to posts made by others who cited Sergio and what he did.

I also have to include all training protocols in the field theory of hypertrophy. Distilling what is required by naturals is difficult, to be sure, but my guess is the programs would be similar to what professionals do.

I was going beyond what anyone actually trains like in this quest and was speculating what was required to grow at the maximum rate possible. When I did this it was clear to me that protocols and routines would exceed what is being done by a significant margin. I reject the HST and HIT approaches as sub-maximal methods that cannot generate maximum hypertrophy. I base this on animal studies and personal anecdotal experience. Once we know how to generate maximum hypertrophy it will be not too difficult to prescribe routines that are sub-maximal but more effective than anything done presently that I am aware of.

There have been individuals who have done extreme training in the past and their results are important, too. There is nowhere anything resembling controlled experiments so what we have are more anecdotal reports.

We have all heard about over-training. Lee Priest doesn't believe such a thing exists whereas others do. I tend to agree with Lee. There is so much confusion and nonsense in bodybuilding. People believe things with no adequate reason to do so except that almost everyone believes the same thing.

I say stuff the drugs and supplements and let us find a way to get huge naturally, quickly and steadily. This is what is guiding me and I think I have an idea how to do it. Now all I need is one subject to volunteer to try what I say. He will have to be intelligent, experienced and capable of following directions to the letter. Too many people improvise and soon lose the direction they were going.

[The Luke]

I like you Vince, But do you know what gives me the shits VB? Posts like the above... Earlier in the thread you carry on how drugs have ruined BB, yadda yadda yadda..

Then you post alleged Hypertrophy workouts of Sergio/Viator.. Now you tell me, how is any natural or clean trainee supposed to benefit from copying or emulating these workouts?? when these guys were juiced to their eyeballs.

An important point of fact here:

Naturals shouldn't utilise a training regimen simply because it works for steroid users... because EVERY training regimen works for steroid users (to some degree at least).

Naturals should emulate the type of training that works BEST for steroid users (making allowances for reduced recovery ability).

That seems to be HIT... superslow, rest-pause, counted negatives, negative-only, positive-only... these are all methods by which HITers convince themselves they are training hard when they aren't, and the promulgation (and multiplication) of these training theories simply muddies the waters.

HIT doesn't stop working... people scale back their efforts either consciously or subconsciously.

Squatting till you puke will ALWAYS work... it stops working when people stop puking.

The Luke

[Vince B]

The Luke is a welcome addition to this thread. I don't give compliments easily. He obviously has done his reading and has paid his dues in the gym.

The HIT trainees and the HST trainees embrace their ideas like people do religion. Heck, a good scientist abandons what doesn't work and also if a better theory replaces what was previously believed.

There is a persistent incommensurability regarding various theories in bodybuilding and that has contributed to the clashes, debates and misunderstandings.

I think I could enhance the muscles of all HIT and HST enthusiasts. The obstacle is overcoming their rigid belief systems. If you do not believe something is possible you are unlikely to transcend the results you currently have.

[pumpster]

If you'd read the entire interview you would also note that Sergio credits HIT with being THE most effective training method that he ever used... if memory serves, I remember Sergio also pointed out that the biggest regret of his bodybuilding career was not sticking with Arthur Jones and eclipsing Arnold completely... I also remeber that Sergio said he utilised Arthur's HIT techniques in his free weight workouts when he returned to training on his own... (although he did admit having to slightly increase the volume to compensate for the lack of equipment).

As i've pointed out quite clearly, there is ambiguity in how much of the benefits were due to any one thing. According to what Sergio said, anecdotally the machines were the biggest difference, not HIT or having someone push him, but it's not clear. A better interviewer might've been able to flush that out.

In the interview he says he wishes he'd had the machines in Chicago, as if that was the main difference.

It's also unclear whether he would've stayed on an exclusively HIT training schedule for any length of time-he regrets not continuing it now but probably also neglects to mention, because it doesn't sound so good, is that the agony of HIT training if done correctly ensures that it's more of a temporary jolt for most BBs.

[Van_Bilderass]

I say stuff the drugs and supplements and let us find a way to get huge naturally, quickly and steadily. This is what is guiding me and I think I have an idea how to do it. Now all I need is one subject to volunteer to try what I say. He will have to be intelligent, experienced and capable of following directions to the letter. Too many people improvise and soon lose the direction they were going.

You are absolutely DELUSIONAL if you think there is some "scientific" routine that will make the average natural trainee bigger than what we have seen so far.
You simply refuse to accept that training methodology has been tapped as far as what can be accomplished. It has ALL been tried. We KNOW what makes muscles grow. There is nothing that will revolutionize training methods for hypertrophy.

[pobrecito]

Max Rep, your last post quoting Sergio Oliva is quite inaccurate if you are trying to suggest how Arthur Jones trained him. You are implying that Sergio did 32 sets for a bodypart and trained for 3 1/2 hours each workout. That is hogwash and you know it. That is the worst example of journalism I have seen on Getbig for some time. To me that is intellectual dishonesty.

The workouts Arthur had Sergio do were absolutely brutal and the account is a great read. Jones combined Nautilus machine training with free weights and came up with workouts that almost destroyed Sergio. For thighs Sergio warmed up on a Leg Press exercise and went to failure with a heavy weight. He raced over to do leg extensions with heaps of plates for as many reps as he could then without resting did something like 10 or 15 reps full squatting with something like 400 pounds. The first time Sergio tried to duplicate Casey's workout he collapsed when he decended in the first rep of the squat. Eventually he was able to perform that super-human tri-set. It is clear that few people were capable of training that hard. Jones had a champion bodybuilder who's pride was at stake and he was motivated to defeat Arnold who he had lost to in the Olympia. Jones knew exactly what was required to make Sergio larger and he succeeded magnificently.

Compare Sergio's condition in 1972 to Dorian's in 1993.

Dorian dwarfs Sergio. In the same condition as Sergio, Yates is 300lbs.

[alexxx]

Dorian dwarfs Sergio. In the same condition as Sergio, Yates is 300lbs.

LMAO you are delusional. I am sure if there is one man that is untouchable in bodybuilding circles it's Sergio.

[Snotroot]

I was hoping all the GH hormones thaey add to beef and chicken these days would be enough for me to grow.

[Rammer]

I just want to chime in with some personal experience of my own for what it's worth.  I'm a natural bodybuilder that has competed at the national level.  I was at a plateau in my strength and bodyweight.  A coworker let me listen to some Mentzer audio tapes on high intensity training.  The tapes blew me away.  Everything Mentzer said made logical sense.  At that time I was doing the standard 3 exercises for 3 sets for each bodypart working out 4 days a week.  To cut my volume down to 1 or 2 sets sounded insane to me but logically it made sense after listening to those tapes.  I decided to cut back my volume gradually, first by doing only 2 sets of each exercise bringing my total sets per bodypart down from 9 to 6 and I also increased my recovery time by not training on consecutive days.  My strength went up and I put on some body weight.  After a few weeks I cut some more volume out by decreasing the number of exercises down to 2 so now I was doing 4 work sets per bodypart.  My strength went up again and I put on some mass.  Finally I went down to 1 set per exercise for 2 movements per large bodypart and one set for smaller bodyparts.  Again my strength increased and my lean body mass went up.  I kept a training journal and every single workout I was either able to increase my poundages a little or squeeze out an extra rep.  It was amazing, I broke through all my plateaus and made considerable gains and was in and out of the gym in 45 mins.  I can't recommend HIT for everyone especially beginners.  I believe you have to be an advanced lifter to utilize HIT properly.  Only an advanced lifter can generate the intensity needed to train this way.  My training partners didn't respond nearly as well to HIT, they were athletes, not bodybuilders and they didn't have the mind/muscle connection to be able to generate the intensity necessary to train this way.  I no longer compete but I still keep my intensity high and keep my volume low.  Anything but high intensity feels like a waste of time to me and I believe the logic and science behind HIT make it the most sound method of training.

[alexxx]

I just want to chime in with some personal experience of my own for what it's worth.  I'm a natural bodybuilder that has competed at the national level.  I was at a plateau in my strength and bodyweight.  A coworker let me listen to some Mentzer audio tapes on high intensity training.  The tapes blew me away.  Everything Mentzer said made logical sense.  At that time I was doing the standard 3 exercises for 3 sets for each bodypart working out 4 days a week.  To cut my volume down to 1 or 2 sets sounded insane to me but logically it made sense after listening to those tapes.  I decided to cut back my volume gradually, first by doing only 2 sets of each exercise bringing my total sets per bodypart down from 9 to 6 and I also increased my recovery time by not training on consecutive days.  My strength went up and I put on some body weight.  After a few weeks I cut some more volume out by decreasing the number of exercises down to 2 so now I was doing 4 work sets per bodypart.  My strength went up again and I put on some mass.  Finally I went down to 1 set per exercise for 2 movements per large bodypart and one set for smaller bodyparts.  Again my strength increased and my lean body mass went up.  I kept a training journal and every single workout I was either able to increase my poundages a little or squeeze out an extra rep.  It was amazing, I broke through all my plateaus and made considerable gains and was in and out of the gym in 45 mins.  I can't recommend HIT for everyone especially beginners.  I believe you have to be an advanced lifter to utilize HIT properly.  Only an advanced lifter can generate the intensity needed to train this way.  My training partners didn't respond nearly as well to HIT, they were athletes, not bodybuilders and they didn't have the mind/muscle connection to be able to generate the intensity necessary to train this way.  I no longer compete but I still keep my intensity high and keep my volume low.  Anything but high intensity feels like a waste of time to me and I believe the logic and science behind HIT make it the most sound method of training.

How about you cut it to 1 work set per muscle? It would only make sense..

[Rammer]

How about you cut it to 1 work set per muscle? It would only make sense..

I didn't superset so I did one pressing movement for chest and one flye movement for example.  Large bodyparts were trained like that and small bodyparts were trained with only one set.

[alexxx]

I didn't superset so I did one pressing movement for chest and one flye movement for example.  Large bodyparts were trained like that and small bodyparts were trained with only one set.

Did you reach a plateay or are you still gaining?

[Rammer]

Did you reach a plateay or are you still gaining?

I never stopped gaining while I was training that way but unfortunately I moved to a rural area for a year when my wife did her internship and the only place to train in town was horrendous.  I could put every single plate they had in the whole gym on the crappy leg press they had and it wasn't heavy enough.  They only had six 45's in the whole gym.  I struggled that year to retain muscle and I lost substantial size and strength.  When we finally moved back to civilization I started training heavy again but now I had a job that didn't allow me to eat whenever I wanted and the priorities in my life changed.  I was done competing so without that as motivation it was hard to maintain the same intensity.  Plus I was getting older and some of my joints are starting to ache a bit.  As you get older your natural hormone levels also change which affect your training.  I don't see how Vince can say he thinks he can get in the best shape of his life today when it is known fact that testosterone and GH production goes down as you age.

[disco_stu]

out of 100 people who read and learn about HIT, only 1 understands it and implements it.

the problem is that the 99 who dont really understand it think they do.

Mike Mentzer understood it, Yates, I believe, did too.

Most arrive at something that resembles the reader's interpretation of HIT, not actual HIT.

True students of HIT understand the balance of recovery, intensity, volume and other aspects such as recruitment of working muscles, moment arms in range of movements and so on.

HIT is about employing these things optimally which means a bit of empirical discovery through practice, as well as some well thought out strategy.

it also requires inhuman determination to train a the levels required when required.

its purely an extrapolation of the first principles of how muscle grows. simple as that.

and yes, AAS and other growth drugs have ruined it by removing the ability to assess cause and effect properly.

it's hard enough assessing it with all the existing variables, let alone by stacking a bunch of drugs into the scenario.

anyone whos ever trained will know that, unfortunately, there is no substitute for drugs...dont be naive and think there is.

You can get big by being lifetime natural, but the guy on drugs can be as big as you in months, not years.. and you will never be as big as those on gear.

just the facts.

[Vince B]

To reply to Van_Bilderass. There is nothing scientific about what I propose although it will be consistent with scientific research. 

I do not believe that so-called conventional training has tapped the hypertrophy potential of any natural trainee. That is nonsense. We have a long way to go to discover maximum hypertrophy training theory.

[jmt1]

I just want to chime in with some personal experience of my own for what it's worth.  I'm a natural bodybuilder that has competed at the national level.  I was at a plateau in my strength and bodyweight.  A coworker let me listen to some Mentzer audio tapes on high intensity training.  The tapes blew me away.  Everything Mentzer said made logical sense.  At that time I was doing the standard 3 exercises for 3 sets for each bodypart working out 4 days a week.  To cut my volume down to 1 or 2 sets sounded insane to me but logically it made sense after listening to those tapes.  I decided to cut back my volume gradually, first by doing only 2 sets of each exercise bringing my total sets per bodypart down from 9 to 6 and I also increased my recovery time by not training on consecutive days.  My strength went up and I put on some body weight.  After a few weeks I cut some more volume out by decreasing the number of exercises down to 2 so now I was doing 4 work sets per bodypart.  My strength went up again and I put on some mass.  Finally I went down to 1 set per exercise for 2 movements per large bodypart and one set for smaller bodyparts.  Again my strength increased and my lean body mass went up.  I kept a training journal and every single workout I was either able to increase my poundages a little or squeeze out an extra rep.  It was amazing, I broke through all my plateaus and made considerable gains and was in and out of the gym in 45 mins.  I can't recommend HIT for everyone especially beginners.  I believe you have to be an advanced lifter to utilize HIT properly.  Only an advanced lifter can generate the intensity needed to train this way.  My training partners didn't respond nearly as well to HIT, they were athletes, not bodybuilders and they didn't have the mind/muscle connection to be able to generate the intensity necessary to train this way.  I no longer compete but I still keep my intensity high and keep my volume low.  Anything but high intensity feels like a waste of time to me and I believe the logic and science behind HIT make it the most sound method of training.

good post...i agree 100%...my best gains by far have come with HIT.

i think alot of guys just dont understand what training with intensity and to failure really means...they claim they want to be bodybuilders yet they are posting about workouts that last 2 hours, doing sets for 100 reps, ect...lol.

[Vince B]

Ray and Mike Mentzer, Casey Viator and Sergio Oliva all made gains using the methods of Arthur Jones. That is a fact. However, if intensity is THE factor in hypertrophy how do we explain the hypertrophy of all the other bodybuilders who do not use HIT? I think it is a copout to argue that few comprehend HIT and that is why they do not make gains.

It is my belief that most bodybuilders train too many bodyparts all the time and that interferes with hypertrophy. Those who cut down on training might assist hypertrophy obliquely. HIT cannot lead to maximum hypertrophy. I rather doubt that it can. We all know how HIT trainees dismiss the warmup sets and then say they are doing very little training. There is so much dishonesty in that camp. I challenge that theory and I suspect it will be found wanting in the field. The best theory works and keeps on working. HIT falls short with most people. If you have to wonder if you are doing it right that clearly cannot be the way to train. The idea that a few intense sets will lead to huge size is almost laughable. That a few people have managed to succeed is remarkable but does not prove the theory true. The legions of trainees who fail to make gains falsify that theory in practice. Theorists then suggest they weren't really following HIT principles. That smacks of nonsense. Abandon false theories and replace them with better theories. Intensity has a place in hypertrophy theory but is not the main principle. I doubt drop sets, failure, partner pushing or any of those methods are necessary. Rest-pause is almost useless. What one cannot abandon is to actually train for growth and then test these various methods. I haven't found these methods helpful. The ideas of Larry Scott are another thing and much closer to the truth regarding hypertrophy.

I look at the various methods that deliver some hypertrophy and if you imagine all these methods in the wide area of a funnel then they all have to go through the narrow part of the funnel to trigger hypertrophy. The symptoms of that process is lactic acid build up, shaking, pumped muscles, and exhaustion. I remember arguing this point with Ray Mentzer and we talked about the Stress of Life by Hans Selye. You cannot trigger hypertrophy in developed muscles without going through the same process. It may be that some people can induce growth with less exercise. The vast majority need far more sets. Of course, the body is a system and we had better make sure that other beliefs don't hamper growth. Most bodybuilders are quite uninformed about nutrition. The unsuccessful ones are, at least. If you have extreme views about eating healthy and so on you are unlikely to be able to get big. If even one part of the formula is inadequate there can be no growth.

[Lion666]

Vince your words,
"I say stuff the drugs and supplements and let us find a way to get huge naturally, quickly and steadily. This is what is guiding me and I think I have an idea how to do it. Now all I need is one subject to volunteer to try what I say. He will have to be intelligent, experienced and capable of following directions to the letter. Too many people improvise and soon lose the direction they were going."
Any takers yet? Dr. Antonio and the 300% muscle increase in 1 month, who wouldn't want that. I certainly agree with the reference you made about lee priest & overtraing. All relative. What would be the parameters of instruction, training/rest/diet/times etc. How specific & detailed would they be. Who's up for this challenge. Let's put these theories in motion and GETBIG.

[Rammer]

The ideas of Larry Scott are another thing and much closer to the truth regarding hypertrophy.

You keep mentioning Larry Scott.  Now I don't know what principles Larry Scott has developed or used successfully but what I do know is I watched a Larry Scott training video once and it was one of the funniest things I have seen.  He was doing these exercises that looked ridiculous and half the time he couldn't even demonstrate them properly to the training camp in the video.  And when the training camp tried to mimic his movements you could tell they felt awkward and were getting no benefit from the weird exercise form.  He did a bizzare form of pullup and other weird movements, no movement was done conventionally, not even a flat bench press.  He did things like inverted chest flyes using handles attached to chains hanging from the ceiling.  He couldn't even maintain his balance while performing the movement and literally fell down half the time.  I watched the tape mostly for entertainment purposes and didn't glean anything useful from it.  You couldn't workout like Larry Scott in a normal gym because normal gyms don't have chains hanging from the ceiling etc.  Please tell me that somebody else here has seen this tape and can vouch for what I said above because I know it sounds bizarre. I only wish I still had the tape so I could upload it to YouTube.

[Lion666]

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/hypplas.htm
a link to dr.antonio regarding his studies on muscle hypertrophy/hyperplasia
mentions weighted stretching, x-reps, pof whatever tag line people use. know some pretty big bb's that use that technique at end of sets on certain excercises. been using it myself for a while now.

[Vince B]

Thanks for that link. Antonio writes:

"But you might ask yourself, what does hanging a weight on a bird have to do with humans who lift weights? So who cares if birds can increase muscle mass by over 300% and fiber number by 90%. Well, you've got a good point. Certainly, nobody out there (that I know of), hangs weights on their arms for 30 days straight or even 30 minutes for that matter. Maybe you should try it and see what happens. This could be a different albeit painful way to "train." But actually the physiologically interesting point is that if presented with an appropriate stimulus, a muscle can produce more fibers! What is an appropriate stimulus? I think it is one that involves subjecting muscle fibers to high tension overload (enough to induce injury) followed by a regenerative period."