Author Topic: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?  (Read 3922 times)

240 is Back

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okay, I love a good conspiracy, but even I have to draw the line on this one lol...

I'm watching 'why we fight' last night, and they said that Japan had been trying to surrender the entire summer before we nuked them twice.  It said that we ignored their request because we wanted to set off two A-bombs, which we did in August.  We wanted to show the world our might, and killed 200,000 to do so.

now a lot of what was said in that movie was right on, but this stands out as nearly unbelievable.  Does anyone have any links or info which proves/disproves this?  (and please, none of the "that sounds like bullshit, you're an idiot" kinda stuff... I'm very serious and open minded to this one).

Anyone have info?  I'm floored and personally, i can't even believe this one lol...

OzmO

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2006, 01:21:26 PM »
Well every history book i've ever read on the subject says Japan refused to "uncondiotnally surrender"  they offered a conditional surrender that we refused.

240 is Back

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2006, 01:23:42 PM »
Well every history book i've ever read on the subject says Japan refused to "uncondiotnally surrender"  they offered a conditional surrender that we refused.

i see... any info on the conditions? 

Diesel1

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2006, 01:24:06 PM »
It's true. They deserved getting nuked, ever hear the stories of their treament of POW's

More importantly (and the main reason) it sent a message to Comrade Stalin.


amc1980

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2006, 01:26:48 PM »
I have no evidence, but I was taught in A level History that they set the bombs off as a show of strength to Russia.

240 is Back

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2006, 01:29:18 PM »
I agree the Japanese were some pricks.  And I know we did scare teh crap outta Russia.  Just curious if officially, we X'd out 200,000 civilians in 3 days for what reason.  I am certainly not sympathizing their cause lol... fuckers.  I was just curious.

pumpster

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2006, 01:29:34 PM »
Supposedly there was covert interest in surrendering earlier but bottom line they didn't, even after the first bombing.

240 is Back

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2006, 02:03:07 PM »
Oh, I am very sure FDR knew pearl harbor in advance.  They moved all the new ships out right before.  Only the old ships were destroyed, and one general remarked "they did us a favor" by cleaning out the old junk ships. 

pumpster, I didn't mean they wouldn't surrender in those 3 days between attacks... i meant, did they try to surrender all summer.

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2006, 03:45:15 PM »
im not sure about the 'they were trying to surrender' part....who knows? its possible. i have read tho that the nukes werent entirely necessary, that truman insisted on using them in order to give the world-namely the soviet union- a message as to who was the king of the hill now.

if you think about it, the whole 'it was better than the invasion-of-japan alternative' doesnt make much sense because by that point japan had virtually no means to even make war anymore, their war production was nonexistant and they were mostly out of manpower.
we had pretty much cleared them out of foreign territories already and they simply did not have the means to do anything offensive anymore. all they could do -all they did do at that point- was defense of the homeland. whether or not they 'officially surrendered' didnt mean much because their ability to keep fighting was at an end. 

Cavalier22

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2006, 05:13:46 PM »
that is absolutely false.  the emperors advisors planned on making each inch of japan as costful as possible for the allies.  they were in the process of arming every male aged 13 and up with any weapons available.  the invasion would have caused massive american casualties per any ground the allies would gain.  the japanese hope was that the americans would tire of the fight and eventually come to some kind of agreements short of unconditional surrender. 

surrendering was the ultimate dishonor to the bushido code.  relatives of any soldiers who actually surrendered, which was very few, were shamed.  dying in battle for the emperor was the highest honor in the twisted code that was ingrained in everyone in imperial japan.   iwo jima was so fiercely defended because it was considered part of the japenese homeland=sacred ground.

i read a few months ago in a ww 2 magazine about an elaborate system of underground tunnels that the emperors advisors hoped they could use to continue to fight the war even after the first bomb was dropped.

there was a coup attempt after military commanders found out the emperor was actually considering surrendering.

Valhalla awaits.

240 is Back

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2006, 05:17:39 PM »
Cool, thanks Cav.  I keep finding conflicting things on google about this one.  Obviously it's ancient history, but it was fascinating to me.

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2006, 06:13:13 PM »
that is absolutely false.  the emperors advisors planned on making each inch of japan as costful as possible for the allies.  they were in the process of arming every male aged 13 and up with any weapons available.  the invasion would have caused massive american casualties per any ground the allies would gain.  the japanese hope was that the americans would tire of the fight and eventually come to some kind of agreements short of unconditional surrender. 

but this is besides the point. by the time we dropped the bombs, japan had NO offensive capacity at all. their navy, their sole means of attacking us, was severely pwned. they had virtually no planes left and even fewer pilots to fly them. their oil was cut off. their industry was wrecked.

why would we possibly need to invade japan for?
who cares if they dont 'formally surrender' - they could no longer hurt us or do anything to anybody. an invasion would have been incredibly costly-and incredibly unecessary.

all we would have had to do was keep our navy patrolling their waters, and bomb any attempt at rebuilding industry from the air and just let them do whatever it is they want to do on their own little island. they were finished already. there was certainly no logical reason to attempt to take japan itself. the only reason for the nukes was 1. to get them to formally surrender (redundant since they were beaten already) and 2. as a display of overwhelming power to the rest of the world and to the soviets especially.

bmacsys

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2006, 05:44:22 AM »
but this is besides the point. by the time we dropped the bombs, japan had NO offensive capacity at all. their navy, their sole means of attacking us, was severely pwned. they had virtually no planes left and even fewer pilots to fly them. their oil was cut off. their industry was wrecked.

why would we possibly need to invade japan for?
who cares if they dont 'formally surrender' - they could no longer hurt us or do anything to anybody. an invasion would have been incredibly costly-and incredibly unecessary.




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a_joker10

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2006, 06:43:40 AM »
Oh, I am very sure FDR knew pearl harbor in advance.  They moved all the new ships out right before.  Only the old ships were destroyed, and one general remarked "they did us a favor" by cleaning out the old junk ships. 

pumpster, I didn't mean they wouldn't surrender in those 3 days between attacks... i meant, did they try to surrender all summer.

240 -
If you have chance go to Pearl Harbour and take the tour.
I found it amazing. The American governement rebuilt all but 2 of the battleships that were hit that day. One of themactually was in the Sea of Japan at the time of the treaty signing.
Also go to the Missouri you can see a plaque where the treaty was signed.
Z

Cavalier22

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2006, 07:14:31 AM »
by your logic, we should have just let germany alone after the battle of the bulge was over.  they were incapable of any type of offensive action.
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JOHN MATRIX

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2006, 12:11:09 PM »
basically we could have. not left them alone completely, but reduced it to aerial bombardment to keep their capabilities subdued for as long as we'd liked or until they surrendered.
by that point in the war the outcome was no longer in question, the whole issue then became the 'race for berlin' just to see who would get control over rebuilding germany into what each side wanted, not out of any strategic necessity.
the soviets invaded and took control because they wanted to spread their communism shit there too just like they had 'liberated' and set up 'friendly regimes' in poland and eastern europe. it was in their own interest to spread communism as far into europe as they could, it would keep an old enemy (germany) in check and would make russia more powerful.
the only reason the allies needed to do a full scale invasion of germany was to counter the 'soviet threat' and thus try to keep germany 'western' in order to help provide a buffer in europe against the red beast. the marshall plan wasnt done out of the kindness of our hearts ::) it was because we wanted germany there to counter soviet influence and for our own economic interests.

the goal of making war on a belligerent nation is to destroy their ability to continue to make war, and to remove them from illicitly aquired foreign territory. after this enemy has been removed from all foreign territories and their ability to continue warfare has been smashed and removed, then what threat are they? once you have owned them thoroughly and demonstrate that there is no way for them to do anything at all without your permission, what is the strategic purpose of invading their country? you already hold sway over them, they know it as well as you do, and formal surrender is inevitable. unless you are attempting to install your own government like the soviets for your own political and economic agendas, then there is no reason to waste an incredible amount of lives and resources by invading an already militarily defeated nation.

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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2006, 06:28:17 PM »
John is correct about the political ramifications of the European invasion.  By the time of D-Day, the the Nazis were already retreating on the Eastern Front.  In early 1944 Stalin said that the Soviets did not need Anglo-American assistance to defeat the Nazis.  The turning point on the European theater were the battles of Stalingrad and Kursk.  Had the Germans won either battle, the outcome of WWII would have been significantly different.  The Soviets were in Manchuria when the Nagasaki bomb was detonated.  I would think 3 million angry Russians (with the capability to get to Japan)would be a strong reason to surrender.  The atomic casualties were horrific, but compare the number of casualties in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the effect of firebombing Tokyo.

The question about needing to nuke Japan is debatable.  The real question should be- "Why was unconditional surrender necessary?"  There has never been an answer to this question.  Unconditional surrender was not necessary in WWI so why in WWII? 

Did you know that historians estimate that over 80% of all Allied casualties in World War II were Soviet?  The Soviet history of World War II is actually pretty interesting and provides a different perspective to the history we all learned. 
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Re: I heard the silliest thing last night about WWII- True or false?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2006, 06:33:43 PM »
Cool, thanks Cav.  I keep finding conflicting things on google about this one.  Obviously it's ancient history, but it was fascinating to me.

Google is great, but real books have their charm as well.

And FWIW, the second world war is NOT "ancient history".

It was merely some 60+ years ago.

YIP
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