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Author Topic: Overtraining: bodybuilding's biggest myth ?  (Read 8664 times)
shiftedShapes
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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2006, 11:29:21 AM »

yes you can overtrain.

the biggest myth in BBing is undereating.  You don't need to eat a lot to gain muscle.  Calorie restricted test subjects are actually more muscular than their full calorie peers.
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« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2006, 11:33:26 AM »

Werd

looking cool spiko


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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2006, 11:34:24 AM »

I noticed this is becomming an argument over the myth that "what works for me might not work for you".

HIT is a proven formula that produces optimal increases in muscle strength and size for EVERYONE. That is, everyone that can bear to train on such a level of intensity.

Anomtomically and physiologically, every human being is essentially the same. So to say that there is no specific scientific nature or cause of what activates the growth process is to say something devoid of all logic and reasoning. Muscle is muscle. A human being is a human being.

To say that there is not one specific stimulus to activate the growth process is like saying every individual's muscles are not made of the same substances.
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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2006, 11:41:07 AM »

looking cool spiko
Out of curiosity, why do you feel the need to follow me around and post old pictures of me? Yes, I was bi at one point in my past. I've never denied that and it doesn't bother me, so I don;'t see why it bothers you. I took a stupid looking picture in my kung fu uniform, ok whatever. And the other pic is more than three years old and I've posted it on these boards before as well as an even older pic and a newer one that show the progress I made. So why do you feel the need to hate on me when I've never done anything to you nor denied any of this?
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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2006, 11:43:39 AM »

Out of curiosity, why do you feel the need to follow me around and post old pictures of me? Yes, I was bi at one point in my past. I've never denied that and it doesn't bother me, so I don;'t see why it bothers you. I took a stupid looking picture in my kung fu uniform, ok whatever. And the other pic is more than three years old and I've posted it on these boards before as well as an even older pic and a newer one that show the progress I made. So why do you feel the need to hate on me when I've never done anything to you nor denied any of this?

whos hating, i said you looked cool.
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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2006, 11:53:39 AM »

Does the HIT formula include a diet?
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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2006, 12:22:51 PM »

Does the HIT formula include a diet?

Dieting shouldn't be very complicated. Well balanced meals of 60% carbs 25% protein and 15% fats is best.
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« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2006, 12:47:35 PM »

there is no question that hit along with proper nutrition is the way to pack on quality muscle.

i think its good to mix in some moderate volume training from time to time but hit should be the basis of any bodybuilders training program.

i really dont think alot of guys have the heart to train hit...they would much rather grab a lighter weight and do countless reps.

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« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2006, 01:08:22 PM »

I noticed this is becomming an argument over the myth that "what works for me might not work for you".

HIT is a proven formula that produces optimal increases in muscle strength and size for EVERYONE. That is, everyone that can bear to train on such a level of intensity.

Anomtomically and physiologically, every human being is essentially the same. So to say that there is no specific scientific nature or cause of what activates the growth process is to say something devoid of all logic and reasoning. Muscle is muscle. A human being is a human being.

To say that there is not one specific stimulus to activate the growth process is like saying every individual's muscles are not made of the same substances.

...dude, no disrespect, but I know most here haven't encountered a true "HIT" fan(atic)...I'm not calling you one, but you certainly sound like every Mentzer Disciple I've ever read on the web.

Your observations about HIT and it's principles are completely lifted from the Heavy Duty volumes written by Mike.  Your "evidence" and proof that HIT is the best is not, and has never been, any more scientific than other training styles.  I say this because the biggest success story with HIT, Casey Viator, in the famed "experiment" that slapped on an absurd 30 pounds of muscle in something like 4 weeks has NEVER been duplicated.  To be truly scientific, you must be able to have an experiment which can be reproduced...and that one has not.

Yet Casey was "just like any other human", since "a human being is like any other human being, physiologically" right?  HIT, as described by Mike in it's later stages, is just silly.

Credit Mike for showing that you don't need to train like Arnold (in excess of 3 hours a day to make gains) and for his great physique, but that's where it should end.  Doing the Mentzer HIT style and expecting it to be the BEST system is foolhardy.

But almost every serious trainer knows that.  Mike was great, no doubt.  But HIT?....it's like a fanatical religion, taken to extremes by it's proponents.  I don't know why, but that's the way it is.
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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2006, 01:14:40 PM »

I do 70 sets per bodypart 50 reps 3x per week. I recommend everyone here try it for a month and get back to me.
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« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2006, 01:17:59 PM »

I do 70 sets per bodypart 50 reps 3x per week. I recommend everyone here try it for a month and get back to me.

Hey disgusted, I'd like to hear your real opinion on the subject

why do weightlifters have huge tighs and back if they train everyday and sometimes 2 times per day
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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2006, 01:19:07 PM »

no such thing as overtraning...

only under juicing
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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2006, 01:19:47 PM »

Hey disgusted, I'd like to hear your real opinion on the subject

why do weightlifters have huge tighs and back if they train everyday and sometimes 2 times per day


u r confusing frequency and volume...
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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2006, 01:27:43 PM »

Here's a different, scientific approach to overtraining.

Volume training is not only a waste of time and effort, but is actually counterproductive. You draw from your energy reserves during training. And it doesn't take 5 minutes after your workout to restore the energy that was used up. It takes days. And It's far more important for your body to restore it's energy reserves than it is to use energy for building new muscle tissue because those energy reserves are necessary for survival, while building a 20 inch arm is not.

Imagine each set performed is like digging a hole into your energy reserves. The more sets performed, the deeper the hole and the longer that hole takes to fill up during rest. The first thing your body must do after the workout is not build a mountain, i.e., the new muscle growth on top, but fill the hole you've made below. That is, it must recover, overcome the deficit, compensate for the exhaustive effects of the workout. And so because it takes several days before that hole is filled up, it takes even longer to start building the mountain.

With that in mind, we're able to see just how and why HIT is as effective as it is. When volume is lowered, and energy reserves are spared, we are able to restore our energy reserves faster and enter the muscle building process sooner. Not only do we enter the muscle process sooner, but we also have a greater amount of energy which can be used to build new muscles.

Then there's the issue of intensity. The relationship of training intensity and duration exist on an inverse ratio. You can either train hard or long, but you can't do both. Honestly, I think people on high volume programs simply can't push themselves to the extent of absolute failure. I really do. If you did that, your body would force you to lower volume. And arguments like this is just for people to falsely reassure themselves that their lack of efforts in the gym is working. HA!

HIT is a workout program that was the result of one man's use of of a specific method of thought. One of logic and reasoning. Mike Mentzer was perhaps the greatest bodybuilder of all time. He dedicated his life to making a science out of bodybuilding. And that he did. It's called HIT. And I strongly suggest it.

Ever read Arthur Jones Nautilus Bulletins?
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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2006, 01:33:28 PM »

...dude, no disrespect, but I know most here haven't encountered a true "HIT" fan(atic)...I'm not calling you one, but you certainly sound like every Mentzer Disciple I've ever read on the web.

Your observations about HIT and it's principles are completely lifted from the Heavy Duty volumes written by Mike.  Your "evidence" and proof that HIT is the best is not, and has never been, any more scientific than other training styles.  I say this because the biggest success story with HIT, Casey Viator, in the famed "experiment" that slapped on an absurd 30 pounds of muscle in something like 4 weeks has NEVER been duplicated.  To be truly scientific, you must be able to have an experiment which can be reproduced...and that one has not.

Yet Casey was "just like any other human", since "a human being is like any other human being, physiologically" right?  HIT, as described by Mike in it's later stages, is just silly.

Credit Mike for showing that you don't need to train like Arnold (in excess of 3 hours a day to make gains) and for his great physique, but that's where it should end.  Doing the Mentzer HIT style and expecting it to be the BEST system is foolhardy.

But almost every serious trainer knows that.  Mike was great, no doubt.  But HIT?....it's like a fanatical religion, taken to extremes by it's proponents.  I don't know why, but that's the way it is.

I know I'm sounding just like Mike Mentzer himself LOL. It's because I've just read his book High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way and all the knowledge is still fresh in my mind.

Casey Viator was not the only person to ever be trained by Mentzer. You should know that he was a personal trainer for decades. He trained many people, from average man to pro BB. I know he trained Aaron Baker for a while but Baker returned to his old routine. HIT is not designed for juicers because they need to increase volume and frequency of training because of their recovery advantage.

Mike recalls his trainees as having recieving results which were "phenominal". And I'm not surprised whatsoever after having tasted HIT for the first time. With my first week of HIT completed I feel absolute wonderful. I feel bigger and stronger already and I know I will experience some of the best results I ever have. My HIT log is in the training section. Check it out.

By saying that anotomically and physiologically, every human being is essentially the same, I'm not implying that results will not vary. I'm saying that HIT is the quickest route to reaching your predisposed genetic limit. Whether you have the best genetics or the worst, HIT will ensure you're receiving optimal results.

It might seem like a religion to you only because it's based on scientific research and fact. It's the most logical approach to training there is. And that's what's intimidating to others. The fact that it is WILL WORK!

Bodybuilding is a form of exercise science, which flows directly from medical science. And medical science is a set of absolute principles that must be followed by use of strict discipline. A doctor is not going to use a different set of principles than other doctors because he thinks the medicine books are too "religious" in that they're so absolute in fact. Each certified doctor uses the same set of principles no matter what. And each bodybuilder should use the same approach to increasing the size and strength of their muscles. And there is one sure way to do that. And that's HIT. Other programs work, but not like HIT.
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2006, 01:34:19 PM »

Ever read Arthur Jones Nautilus Bulletins?

Nah. Where can I learn more?
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2006, 01:37:24 PM »

I can't help but laugh at the newbies who think they're "intense" and "hardcore" because they do a few sets to failure. That kind of training might work on pussy machine exercises, but it won't fly when you're doing heavy freeweight lifts. I've never known a really big guy who trained to failure on every exercise. There is really no advantage to it at all.
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2006, 01:45:57 PM »

I know I'm sounding just like Mike Mentzer himself LOL. It's because I've just read his book High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way and all the knowledge is still fresh in my mind.

Casey Viator was not the only person to ever be trained by Mentzer. You should know that he was a personal trainer for decades. He trained many people, from average man to pro BB. I know he trained Aaron Baker for a while but Baker returned to his old routine. HIT is not designed for juicers because they need to increase volume and frequency of training because of their recovery advantage.

Mike recalls his trainees as having recieving results which were "phenominal". And I'm not surprised whatsoever after having tasted HIT for the first time. With my first week of HIT completed I feel absolute wonderful. I feel bigger and stronger already and I know I will experience some of the best results I ever have. My HIT log is in the training section. Check it out.

By saying that anotomically and physiologically, every human being is essentially the same, I'm not implying that results will not vary. I'm saying that HIT is the quickest route to reaching your predisposed genetic limit. Whether you have the best genetics or the worst, HIT will ensure you're receiving optimal results.

It might seem like a religion to you only because it's based on scientific research and fact. It's the most logical approach to training there is. And that's what's intimidating to others. The fact that it is WILL WORK!

Bodybuilding is a form of exercise science, which flows directly from medical science. And medical science is a set of absolute principles that must be followed by use of strict discipline. A doctor is not going to use a different set of principles than other doctors because he thinks the medicine books are too "religious" in that they're so absolute in fact. Each certified doctor uses the same set of principles no matter what. And each bodybuilder should use the same approach to increasing the size and strength of their muscles. And there is one sure way to do that. And that's HIT. Other programs work, but not like HIT.

I too was once mesmerized by Mentzer, Jones, and Darden.  They have some very good ideas but don't buy 100% into it.

The information they espouse really wasn't scientifically based.  For example, Jones and Mentzer claim that a muscle is strongest in the peak contraction position.  Actually quite the opposite is true. A muscle is strongest in a slightly stretched position.

That is just one example of their "science" being all wrong.

Keep your mind open and don't be blinded to the many other good ideas and trainers out there.

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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2006, 01:49:31 PM »

Overtraining is bullshit.  The fact is that the only way you can truly achieve your goals is to go balls to the walls and not let up. 

I did a split training routine for my last show consisting of a light weight high rep routine and a heavy weight low rep routine at night.  I never overtrained and recovered easily by taking simple carbs and protein immediately after each workout followed by a solid meal and getting 8 full hours of sleep every night. 


Also, there's too many people skipping vital exercises because they are too hard and try to substitute for crap routines.  When I train legs, I do squats and deadlifts.  When it comes to shoulders, I never forget to do pull-ups.  When I train chest, I always do dips.  There are no substitutes for these vital exercises   
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2006, 01:54:06 PM »

I know I'm sounding just like Mike Mentzer himself LOL. It's because I've just read his book High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way and all the knowledge is still fresh in my mind.

Casey Viator was not the only person to ever be trained by Mentzer. You should know that he was a personal trainer for decades. He trained many people, from average man to pro BB. I know he trained Aaron Baker for a while but Baker returned to his old routine. HIT is not designed for juicers because they need to increase volume and frequency of training because of their recovery advantage.

Mike recalls his trainees as having recieving results which were "phenominal". And I'm not surprised whatsoever after having tasted HIT for the first time. With my first week of HIT completed I feel absolute wonderful. I feel bigger and stronger already and I know I will experience some of the best results I ever have. My HIT log is in the training section. Check it out.

By saying that anotomically and physiologically, every human being is essentially the same, I'm not implying that results will not vary. I'm saying that HIT is the quickest route to reaching your predisposed genetic limit. Whether you have the best genetics or the worst, HIT will ensure you're receiving optimal results.

It might seem like a religion to you only because it's based on scientific research and fact. It's the most logical approach to training there is. And that's what's intimidating to others. The fact that it is WILL WORK!

Bodybuilding is a form of exercise science, which flows directly from medical science. And medical science is a set of absolute principles that must be followed by use of strict discipline. A doctor is not going to use a different set of principles than other doctors because he thinks the medicine books are too "religious" in that they're so absolute in fact. Each certified doctor uses the same set of principles no matter what. And each bodybuilder should use the same approach to increasing the size and strength of their muscles. And there is one sure way to do that. And that's HIT. Other programs work, but not like HIT.

...all it took was one read of "HIT training the Mike Mentzer Way"?...man, you do sound like an aged Heavy Duty acolyte, that's for sure.  You make the same points most HIT fans do...

On paper it sounds great.  I'm glad Mike motivated you to train his way, but if you're serious about building muscle eventually you'll catch on that there is no "one way" to train.  Here's a few examples why, even with the limited info you've provided on yourself....

..how long have you trained?  HIT usually "works", by that I mean building noticeable muscle, on intermediate to experienced bodybuilders.  Mike himself built his Mr Universe winning body mainly using tried and true high volume principles.  

Yet you also state the well known fallacy that HIT is NOT designed for juicers...nothing could be further from the truth.  Evidence?...Mike was as big a steroid user as ANY pro of his time...and Aaron Baker?  Well, he did try HIT but didn't stick with it the way Mike prescribed it.  Don't listen to the "Aaron was too weak to handle the intensity"....NOBODY can handle this mythical amount of "intensity" that Mike spoke of!  Not even Dorian!

And finally, yourself.  You've been doing HIT what, a whole WEEK?  Not to sound condescending, but that is in no way or shape even REMOTELY long enough to assess the training pricinples of ANY program.  You do have an enormous amount of faith, though, I presume.  That's admirable.

Experiment with HIT, and learn from the experience.  But I can save you a lot of heartaches, and possible injuries...realize that there is NO "right" way to train.  There is only what you prefer, what you like, and that's subjective to each person.  No amount of Mentzer Magic will change that fact.  

ps....I spoke with a man who trained in Mentzer's gym back in the day...a whole gym full of people training "heavy duty style"...and only ONE person who looked like Mike, and that was Mike himself.  Yet his clients rave about their strength gains...but when it comes to muscle, where was it?  Only ONE Mike, with his genetics, his training style, and his drugs could do what he did.  Nothing scientific about it, but he's to be commended for many more important reasons in the world of bodybuilding.  Don't make the mistake of not seeing the forest for the trees...Mike was revolutionary in that he thought differently, and wouldn't accept things at face value.  You should follow that example as well, not just his training style.

The bare "truth" is that Mike realized, very smartly, that you don't need to spend hours in the gym day in and out to build a great body....ESPECIALLY with anabolics!  But he was also business smart enough to know that in order to make lots of money and build a legend around himself, he needed something different in order to try to chip away at Arnold's legacy.  That was, and became, the HIT style.  And as he got older, and went through the hard times, his eventually let his "logic" cloud the real world and finally arrived at an "ultimate HIT routine" which the person trained ONCE EVERY TWO WEEKS, if need be, using a total of SIX EXERCISES.  Sound strange?...well, it should!  

Early HIT ideas were very useful, and led much (if not MOST) to the way we train today in that volume is no longer "king" of styles.  For that alone he should be remembered for a long time, and his intelligence...but not his final HIT ideas, which bordered on lunacy.  

Your choice though.  Post some pics if you really want to prove to us that HIT is the "best"....I'll almost guarantee you that your results will be no more fantastic or astounding than someone using another well-thought out program.  Not a challenge, but if you REALLY want to convince people, that's a great way to do it.  Good luck.
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2006, 02:02:02 PM »

you have to remember... Alot of these powerlifters and strongman guys use pretty hard. At the competitive level, i beleive that drugs have alot to do with the volume and intensity. One can only train according to how fast they recover, therefore what qualifies as overtraining would be different for everybody.
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2006, 02:16:48 PM »

No such thing.

Its all a myth and a lie.
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2006, 02:17:53 PM »

"No such thing as overtraining, only undereating"

(who gave us this quote?)
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2006, 02:20:15 PM »

"No such thing as overtraining, only undereating"

(who gave us this quote?)

that was either Ghandi or Stalin.
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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2006, 02:26:16 PM »

If Mentzer is some kind of super guru than how come he usually looked like shit? He looked okay when he won the universe but other than that he was a waste of Dbol. All of the 'old timers' on here have debunked Mentzers nonsense. He was nothing but a sad, bitter, drug addled fool.
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