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Author Topic: Overtraining: bodybuilding's biggest myth ?  (Read 7844 times)
Debussey
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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2006, 02:27:17 PM »

If Mentzer is some kind of super guru than how come he usually looked like shit? He looked okay when he won the universe but other than that he was a waste of Dbol. All of the 'old timers' on here have debunked Mentzers nonsense. He was nothing but a sad, bitter, drug addled fool.

How is your anus feeling today? A little sore from last nights rectal pounding by your GF's strapon?
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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2006, 02:27:58 PM »

If Mentzer is some kind of super guru than how come he usually looked like shit? He looked okay when he won the universe but other than that he was a waste of Dbol. All of the 'old timers' on here have debunked Mentzers nonsense. He was nothing but a sad, bitter, drug addled fool.
you're a moron, Mentzer is one of the best ever, he's the only bb'er to win the Universe with a perfect score.
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« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2006, 02:28:31 PM »

...all it took was one read of "HIT training the Mike Mentzer Way"?...man, you do sound like an aged Heavy Duty acolyte, that's for sure.  You make the same points most HIT fans do...

On paper it sounds great.  I'm glad Mike motivated you to train his way, but if you're serious about building muscle eventually you'll catch on that there is no "one way" to train.  Here's a few examples why, even with the limited info you've provided on yourself....

..how long have you trained?  HIT usually "works", by that I mean building noticeable muscle, on intermediate to experienced bodybuilders.  Mike himself built his Mr Universe winning body mainly using tried and true high volume principles.  

Yet you also state the well known fallacy that HIT is NOT designed for juicers...nothing could be further from the truth.  Evidence?...Mike was as big a steroid user as ANY pro of his time...and Aaron Baker?  Well, he did try HIT but didn't stick with it the way Mike prescribed it.  Don't listen to the "Aaron was too weak to handle the intensity"....NOBODY can handle this mythical amount of "intensity" that Mike spoke of!  Not even Dorian!

And finally, yourself.  You've been doing HIT what, a whole WEEK?  Not to sound condescending, but that is in no way or shape even REMOTELY long enough to assess the training pricinples of ANY program.  You do have an enormous amount of faith, though, I presume.  That's admirable.

Experiment with HIT, and learn from the experience.  But I can save you a lot of heartaches, and possible injuries...realize that there is NO "right" way to train.  There is only what you prefer, what you like, and that's subjective to each person.  No amount of Mentzer Magic will change that fact.  

ps....I spoke with a man who trained in Mentzer's gym back in the day...a whole gym full of people training "heavy duty style"...and only ONE person who looked like Mike, and that was Mike himself.  Yet his clients rave about their strength gains...but when it comes to muscle, where was it?  Only ONE Mike, with his genetics, his training style, and his drugs could do what he did.  Nothing scientific about it, but he's to be commended for many more important reasons in the world of bodybuilding.  Don't make the mistake of not seeing the forest for the trees...Mike was revolutionary in that he thought differently, and wouldn't accept things at face value.  You should follow that example as well, not just his training style.

The bare "truth" is that Mike realized, very smartly, that you don't need to spend hours in the gym day in and out to build a great body....ESPECIALLY with anabolics!  But he was also business smart enough to know that in order to make lots of money and build a legend around himself, he needed something different in order to try to chip away at Arnold's legacy.  That was, and became, the HIT style.  And as he got older, and went through the hard times, his eventually let his "logic" cloud the real world and finally arrived at an "ultimate HIT routine" which the person trained ONCE EVERY TWO WEEKS, if need be, using a total of SIX EXERCISES.  Sound strange?...well, it should!  

Early HIT ideas were very useful, and led much (if not MOST) to the way we train today in that volume is no longer "king" of styles.  For that alone he should be remembered for a long time, and his intelligence...but not his final HIT ideas, which bordered on lunacy.  

Your choice though.  Post some pics if you really want to prove to us that HIT is the "best"....I'll almost guarantee you that your results will be no more fantastic or astounding than someone using another well-thought out program.  Not a challenge, but if you REALLY want to convince people, that's a great way to do it.  Good luck.

hehehe yeah, I've gotten really into the book. I've never read a bodybuilding book that was so intellectually stimulating.

Mike trained with high volume until he himself fell into the trap of it. When he plateued from that kind of marathon training routine, he naturally assumed that more was better, but when it got to be too much training, and far less results, he decided to switch it up and try low volume. This was during the late 70s. I know he was well into using his HIT routine leading up to the 1980 Olympia, where he showed up in his best shape.

I definetely didn't say Aaron Baker didn't have what it took to push himself to train at such a level of intensity. He went through that training and had great results from it. I believe, however that Mike Mentzer pushed the limits. He had to have. It was his experiment! I'm trying to do the same!

And yes, I am very faithful about this. If I don't get the results I expect, I won't have a meltdown. I'll just be a bit disappointed. From reading Mike Mentzer's books it's clear that this man was a genius. I sense no lunacy whatsoever. He dedicated his life to making a science out of bodybuilding. And with such a great mind comes a desire to leave behind a great legacy. And although that attempt might have been sort of desperate, it's admirable to want that sort of thing.

And I'm very confident about this routine because this is just how I like to train. I'm a bit extreme with my intensity and have always been. It has to do with the way I think. I can NOT end a set and tell myself I could have done another rep if I tried. There's just no way. I will get upset over it.

I go to a very big professional gym and I LOVE knowing that I train harder than anyone else there. I know it and can say it with absolute confidence. Only me and my best friend/training partner seem to have what it takes to push our minds and bodies to the absolute limits of muscular fatigue. And that attitude is applied to almost every aspect of my life. To make the greatest effort or none at all. And the birth of that attitude came directly from bodybuilding.

About his gym being full of unsuccessful bodybuilders, I just don't know. Even if that's true and very few of his clients did actually make improvements, I'm still going to keep this up. At least 6-8 weeks, until I get the full effect. But I just have to doubt that. Mike wouldn't dedicate his life to something that has no proof of success.

And yes, you're right. Even if HIT will not be socially or scientifically accepted, his efforts to challenge the idea that "more is better" has changed the way we train today.

I'm doing just what you suggested. I will post all about my progress including pictures in my HIT log. It's being updated regularly so keep an eye on it.
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« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2006, 02:33:24 PM »

If Mentzer is some kind of super guru than how come he usually looked like shit? He looked okay when he won the universe but other than that he was a waste of Dbol. All of the 'old timers' on here have debunked Mentzers nonsense. He was nothing but a sad, bitter, drug addled fool.

Read his book and admire his physique. Then and only then will you know.


* mikem1980.jpg (75.44 KB, 418x600 - viewed 329 times.)
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« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2006, 02:34:20 PM »

"No such thing as overtraining, only undereating"

(who gave us this quote?)

That is part fallacy as well.

The quote should be corrected to say,

"There is no such thing as overtraining.  Overeating is pointless."
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« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2006, 02:36:47 PM »

you're a moron, Mentzer is one of the best ever, he's the only bb'er to win the Universe with a perfect score.
Where are the pics? I've already said he looked ok for the Universe, but where are the pics from the rest of his 'career'? Don't forget that Arnold owned him so viciously he drove him out of professional bodybuilding and into the gutter.
Read his book and admire his physique. Then and only then will you know.
I've tried his HIT bollocks and it made me strong but fat. Dorian took HIT and turned it into a real and practicle bodybuilding regimen.
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« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2006, 03:29:43 PM »

I do 70 sets per bodypart 50 reps 3x per week. I recommend everyone here try it for a month and get back to me.

lol...yeah i'll get right on that.

i'll also be taking your insightful advice on pwo nutrtition.

ive been wanting to make that transition from bodybuilding into fitness...that should do the trick.

why cant we get a training guru like dc to post here a little more.
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« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2006, 03:41:01 PM »

My girlfriends mom got hammered out by mike mentzer and she said he smelled like shit. I put that down!
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« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2006, 03:44:04 PM »

i have bench pressed  5x a week for past month or so. aldo done board pressing and weighted dips and shoulder presses at least 4x a week on bench day for past month. i have gotten much much stronger
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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2006, 03:55:42 PM »

That is part fallacy as well.

The quote should be corrected to say,

"There is no such thing as overtraining.  Overeating is pointless."

ta, if you wanna see the results of overtraining and undereating protein just take a look in your own mirror.

if you really believe some of the stuff you type here regarding training and nutrtion you are really wasting your time as far as bodybuilding is concerned.

you might wanna focus energy on other areas.

i think you did a great job with your interviews....or if your fight goes off with da and you do well maybe you can get into mma fighting...maybe the ufc.

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« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2006, 04:00:07 PM »

i have bench pressed  5x a week for past month or so. aldo done board pressing and weighted dips and shoulder presses at least 4x a week on bench day for past month. i have gotten much much stronger

Please elaborate. Do you do everything 4-5 times a week or is it a bench press specialization program?
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« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2006, 04:01:17 PM »

come on people lets be serious about this. Everybody put your hand on your nut sac, remind yourself youre a man, and train HIT style!!!!!
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« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2006, 04:04:39 PM »

alexxx here is wat i do per week

bench and board press every day. and i pick a few times a week to throw in 2 squat workout. i dead every day too. and i shoulder press and dip about 4-5 times a week.

i do monday to fri. training for a bench comp. in a month i have added over 10kg to my rep max. probaly closer to 15kg for paused competition reps
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« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2006, 04:12:01 PM »

alexxx here is wat i do per week

bench and board press every day. and i pick a few times a week to throw in 2 squat workout. i dead every day too. and i shoulder press and dip about 4-5 times a week.

i do monday to fri. training for a bench comp. in a month i have added over 10kg to my rep max. probaly closer to 15kg for paused competition reps

That is great Goudy. Thanks.
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« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2006, 04:24:24 PM »

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Is that where I HIT you in the face and you HIT the floor?

youre a pussy...thats based on scientific fact. just like HIT.
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« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2006, 04:46:25 PM »

Here's a different, scientific approach to overtraining.

Volume training is not only a waste of time and effort, but is actually counterproductive. You draw from your energy reserves during training. And it doesn't take 5 minutes after your workout to restore the energy that was used up. It takes days. And It's far more important for your body to restore it's energy reserves than it is to use energy for building new muscle tissue because those energy reserves are necessary for survival, while building a 20 inch arm is not.

Imagine each set performed is like digging a hole into your energy reserves. The more sets performed, the deeper the hole and the longer that hole takes to fill up during rest. The first thing your body must do after the workout is not build a mountain, i.e., the new muscle growth on top, but fill the hole you've made below. That is, it must recover, overcome the deficit, compensate for the exhaustive effects of the workout. And so because it takes several days before that hole is filled up, it takes even longer to start building the mountain.

With that in mind, we're able to see just how and why HIT is as effective as it is. When volume is lowered, and energy reserves are spared, we are able to restore our energy reserves faster and enter the muscle building process sooner. Not only do we enter the muscle process sooner, but we also have a greater amount of energy which can be used to build new muscles.

Then there's the issue of intensity. The relationship of training intensity and duration exist on an inverse ratio. You can either train hard or long, but you can't do both. Honestly, I think people on high volume programs simply can't push themselves to the extent of absolute failure. I really do. If you did that, your body would force you to lower volume. And arguments like this is just for people to falsely reassure themselves that their lack of efforts in the gym is working. HA!

HIT is a workout program that was the result of one man's use of of a specific method of thought. One of logic and reasoning. Mike Mentzer was perhaps the greatest bodybuilder of all time. He dedicated his life to making a science out of bodybuilding. And that he did. It's called HIT. And I strongly suggest it.

Volume training works for hardgainers mostly, though it will work for any bodytype who is using enough AAS...

AAS help you recover faster from whatever training you do, thus the more you take, the faster the recovery etc....

Add in GH/Insulin/IGF-1 and you increase that even more.

Hardgainers have it hard when it comes to building mass, but they make up for it with that long endurance sinewy strength.



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« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2006, 05:04:55 PM »

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Show me these studies Einstein.

okok i dont have any you got me. but youre still a pussy and that was the main point i was trying to make.
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« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2006, 05:18:04 PM »

For the morons stating that there is no such thing as overtraining I suggest the following:

- Do 20 sets of 10 reps in the squat to failure every day for the next 2 weeks.

When the 2 weeks are up we can then discuss the concept of overtraining and its reality.

 Roll Eyes


Training to failure for every body part every workout is self-limiting.  Some body parts (and this can vary individually) can tolerate training to failure every workout quite nicely and even benefit from it.  The balance of body parts require a different approach if we want to maximize our results.

Drugs obviously alter the equation and allow the body to tolerate and benefit from much more volume and intensity of effort.

The self-limiting component of training to failure every workout is probably related to the nervous system.  Complete recovery such that the trainee is able to progress ends up taking a prohibitively long period of time for the advanced trainee (less experienced trainees can get away with more frequent sessions to failure due to the fact they are not strong enough to tax their bodies to the point where recovery demands exceed what the body is capable of).  The recovery period can require upwards of 2 weeks.  This prolonged period of inactivity is not conducive to hypertrophy and quite the opposite can occur.  

There is more but I don't have the time to post it right now.
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« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2006, 05:36:50 PM »

No. I used to do 20 set squats and those where awesome! You feel great!

Only difference for me with volume training vs DC/HIT type is the soreness I get. I get none with 1 set.
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« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2006, 05:41:19 PM »

Is that true in your experience?

I am not a hardgainer....

But a personal trainer friend of mine is and that is the only way he grows......VOLUME TRAINING.




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« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2006, 05:43:04 PM »

alexxx here is wat i do per week

bench and board press every day. and i pick a few times a week to throw in 2 squat workout. i dead every day too. and i shoulder press and dip about 4-5 times a week.

i do monday to fri. training for a bench comp. in a month i have added over 10kg to my rep max. probaly closer to 15kg for paused competition reps

interesting, this is the way to go. you could do everything 7 days a week but prioritizing certain movments each workout by doing more sets of a particular one
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« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2006, 05:58:16 PM »

What about 20 sets of legs, twice a week.  Is that really so bad?

Not necessarily.  There are many variables. Are those 20 sets taken to failure?  Are those 20 working sets or are you including warm-ups?  Are you switching exercises? 

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« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2006, 06:17:41 PM »

For the morons stating that there is no such thing as overtraining I suggest the following:

- Do 20 sets of 10 reps in the squat to failure every day for the next 2 weeks.

When the 2 weeks are up we can then discuss the concept of overtraining and its reality.

 Roll Eyes


Training to failure for every body part every workout is self-limiting.  Some body parts (and this can vary individually) can tolerate training to failure every workout quite nicely and even benefit from it.  The balance of body parts require a different approach if we want to maximize our results.

Drugs obviously alter the equation and allow the body to tolerate and benefit from much more volume and intensity of effort.

The self-limiting component of training to failure every workout is probably related to the nervous system.  Complete recovery such that the trainee is able to progress ends up taking a prohibitively long period of time for the advanced trainee (less experienced trainees can get away with more frequent sessions to failure due to the fact they are not strong enough to tax their bodies to the point where recovery demands exceed what the body is capable of).  The recovery period can require upwards of 2 weeks.  This prolonged period of inactivity is not conducive to hypertrophy and quite the opposite can occur.  

There is more but I don't have the time to post it right now.

2-3 sets of squats kills me. Absolute failure with forced reps on squats is insane. I'm not talking about HIT, but just very intensite low volume training.

And HIT is less stressful on the nervous system and overall physical system because of the rest required. I train 30-40 minutes a week. That's juusst fine with my body!
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« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2006, 07:59:58 PM »

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So we have to take your word that I'm a pussy. After you claimed to have studies on it?

After claiming such things and not being able to follow through, you word is fairly meaningless. Sorry man. Truth hurts.

ok fine watever man just messing around anyway...but for the record i never claimed to have studies on it
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« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2006, 08:03:04 PM »

I am not a hardgainer....

But a personal trainer friend of mine is and that is the only way he grows......VOLUME TRAINING.




DIV

A personal trainer friend!!HE sounds LEGIT!!
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