Author Topic: W. Llewellyn Sust  (Read 2233 times)

Arnold jr

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W. Llewellyn Sust
« on: November 12, 2006, 10:11:28 PM »
Anyone else read Llewellyn's article in the December issue of MD? IN short, he claims that sust is inferior to both test-e and cyp, "based mainly on the amount of testosterone you get dollar for dollar, and the frequent (weekly) injection schedule it’s usually used with. After all, why pay more for a drug you can take once every 4 weeks if you’re going to use it weekly anyway? But the arguments against Sustanon go well beyond a mere testosterone-per-dollar calculation. It turns out that even in a clinical setting, Sustanon may not provide the slow and steady hormone release it’s always promised."

According to him, the problem lies with in the deconate ester. He says that the "peak hormone level is reached approximately 48hrs after the drug is given....If testosterone deconate isn't a delayed-onset drug as thought, but actually provides a peak in testosterone 48hrs after administration, what's going to happen to the other fast-acting esters? ....adding fast acting esters like test-prop, phenyl-prop, and iso, to the formation, to test-deconate is only going to compound the initial test spike...this is one of the key drawbacks to test-e and cyp injections. Levels spike the first several days and then decline...sharpening this early test peak will give an even greater imbalance between the earlier and latter days of the administration window...Athletes should no longer consider Sust the slow steady test. In essence, it's simply a tweaked form of enanthate; a little sharper immediately after injection, but for all intents and purposes, equivalent when given on a weekly basis and less advantageous with wider dosing windows."

whitewidow

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2006, 10:55:08 PM »
LOL- this is new news??? ???

coolioni

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2006, 05:03:06 AM »
so which test do you guys like best ?
and for what reasons ?

barnabas

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2006, 05:37:44 AM »
I like the Organon(pakistan made) Sust.  My body just reacted to that the best.  I have tried BD's enthanate and cyp, Brovel's testosterona 200(which i think was cyp, it was 4 years ago), and QV's enthanate.  So I am sure my experience is a lot less than some others but I prefer the org sust. 

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2006, 06:33:27 AM »
That guy was really friendly to me when I first started talking to him, then when my book started out-selling his, he started badmouthing me behind the scenes. He was a real scumbag to me, in my estimation. I also can't imagine why he operates a message board where half the moderators are selling steroids...that's just poor form.

Honestly, I've read some stuff he's written and always walk away shaking my head in disbelief...he claims you retain more water with EQ over Deca, and other stuff like that. I can't imagine anyone who actually uses steroids to make some of the claims he does.

In the case of Sustanon, I suppose depending on the price you get it at, it's not as good as other types of test, if they're going to be cheaper. But that's really a financial consideration, and not reflective of the drug itself but rather of economic factors. If you get sust as cheaply as you get other testosterone, then it's just as good.


emn1964

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2006, 12:46:09 PM »
That guy was really friendly to me when I first started talking to him, then when my book started out-selling his, he started badmouthing me behind the scenes. He was a real scumbag to me, in my estimation. I also can't imagine why he operates a message board where half the moderators are selling steroids...that's just poor form.

Honestly, I've read some stuff he's written and always walk away shaking my head in disbelief...he claims you retain more water with EQ over Deca, and other stuff like that. I can't imagine anyone who actually uses steroids to make some of the claims he does.

In the case of Sustanon, I suppose depending on the price you get it at, it's not as good as other types of test, if they're going to be cheaper. But that's really a financial consideration, and not reflective of the drug itself but rather of economic factors. If you get sust as cheaply as you get other testosterone, then it's just as good.



Glad to see a true expert postin here.  Thanks Anthony!

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2006, 03:55:12 PM »
Anyone else read Llewellyn's article in the December issue of MD? IN short, he claims that sust is inferior to both test-e and cyp, "based mainly on the amount of testosterone you get dollar for dollar, and the frequent (weekly) injection schedule it’s usually used with. After all, why pay more for a drug you can take once every 4 weeks if you’re going to use it weekly anyway? But the arguments against Sustanon go well beyond a mere testosterone-per-dollar calculation. It turns out that even in a clinical setting, Sustanon may not provide the slow and steady hormone release it’s always promised."

According to him, the problem lies with in the deconate ester. He says that the "peak hormone level is reached approximately 48hrs after the drug is given....If testosterone deconate isn't a delayed-onset drug as thought, but actually provides a peak in testosterone 48hrs after administration, what's going to happen to the other fast-acting esters? ....adding fast acting esters like test-prop, phenyl-prop, and iso, to the formation, to test-deconate is only going to compound the initial test spike...this is one of the key drawbacks to test-e and cyp injections. Levels spike the first several days and then decline...sharpening this early test peak will give an even greater imbalance between the earlier and latter days of the administration window...Athletes should no longer consider Sust the slow steady test. In essence, it's simply a tweaked form of enanthate; a little sharper immediately after injection, but for all intents and purposes, equivalent when given on a weekly basis and less advantageous with wider dosing windows."

Arnold,

He said the same thing in Anabolics 2005, basically reasoning that Sustanon was a waste of money when Enanthate or Cypionate were readily available.

I'm not going to argue with him on his point that Sustanon doesn't provide the timed hormone released because I have no way of knowing how he came to that conclusion.

What I would like to know, though, is if what he's saying has any validity, why would Organon as one of the best pharmecutical companies operating create and market a product intended for HRT if it doesn't work as it was intended to?

This is where quality control comes in to play as well as research and development.  The whole basis of Sustanon250 is to provide a steady stream of testosterone.  If it didn't work, it wouldn't be as popular as it is, IMO.

That guy was really friendly to me when I first started talking to him, then when my book started out-selling his, he started badmouthing me behind the scenes. He was a real scumbag to me, in my estimation. I also can't imagine why he operates a message board where half the moderators are selling steroids...that's just poor form.

Honestly, I've read some stuff he's written and always walk away shaking my head in disbelief...he claims you retain more water with EQ over Deca, and other stuff like that. I can't imagine anyone who actually uses steroids to make some of the claims he does.

In the case of Sustanon, I suppose depending on the price you get it at, it's not as good as other types of test, if they're going to be cheaper. But that's really a financial consideration, and not reflective of the drug itself but rather of economic factors. If you get sust as cheaply as you get other testosterone, then it's just as good.

Anthony,

Sorry to hear about the drama, but it seems like that's rampant in this business wherever you go.

I would tend to agree with you to some degree about his claims though.  A person who has self experience with AAS would know for certain that Deca is notorious for water retention, just as EQ is notorious for appetite stimulation.  I suppose it varies between individuals, but there's no way someone could confuse Deca and EQ if they've had experience with both.




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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2006, 05:56:31 AM »

Anthony,

Sorry to hear about the drama, but it seems like that's rampant in this business wherever you go.

I would tend to agree with you to some degree about his claims though.  A person who has self experience with AAS would know for certain that Deca is notorious for water retention, just as EQ is notorious for appetite stimulation.  I suppose it varies between individuals, but there's no way someone could confuse Deca and EQ if they've had experience with both.


DIV

Check out his asessment of EQ.... He says that since it converts to estrogen at a rate 50% as much as test, and Deca only converts at a rate of 20%, EQ causes more water retention.

As for the Drama, I approached him before my book was on the market and tried to avoid it...our books are very different, and not alike at all. If you check out my website:

www.anthony-roberts.com

You'll see that my writing style and the information I present is totally different than his, and the information he presents. I really wanted to avoid any drama with him, but he just kept attacking me (at one point having his wife call my publisher to imply that they were going to sue me). It's sad, really, and it was totally avoidable.

Really, at this point, I try to remain pretty inactive on most forums...it's too much drama.

DIVISION

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2006, 08:00:44 PM »
Check out his asessment of EQ.... He says that since it converts to estrogen at a rate 50% as much as test, and Deca only converts at a rate of 20%, EQ causes more water retention.

As for the Drama, I approached him before my book was on the market and tried to avoid it...our books are very different, and not alike at all. If you check out my website:

www.anthony-roberts.com

You'll see that my writing style and the information I present is totally different than his, and the information he presents. I really wanted to avoid any drama with him, but he just kept attacking me (at one point having his wife call my publisher to imply that they were going to sue me). It's sad, really, and it was totally avoidable.

Really, at this point, I try to remain pretty inactive on most forums...it's too much drama.

Jesus, Anthony.........the shit is pretty deep.

I'm leaving that alone.

As far as the Deca/EQ comparison..........ther e is none.

They are not similiar, IMO.

I don't like EQ and considering the dosage required for any anabolic effect it's just not feasible for me.

I don't like Deca's progestinic sides, and the resulting sexual suppression but anabolically it's one of the best drugs for a stack.



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BigIronMike25

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2006, 08:36:25 AM »
So whats the verdict?  Is sust not all its cracked up to be?  I personally loved it and felt it was better than enanthate, however i was doing more mgs of sust than enanthate ( 750 to 500).  I'd say you probably cant go wrong with either and if the prices are somewhat similar im pickin sust every time!

w_llewellyn

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2006, 12:18:09 PM »
The main problem with Sustanon is that you can't find reliable pharmacokinetics on it. What is known of the esters supports the conclusion that it is too sharp to consider "slow and steady". It isn't the first time that conclusion has been drawn either. I am just reiterating it to the community, really. Can't say it is impossible that this assesment is wrong, but it seems the most reasonable given what we know about it.


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w_llewellyn

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 12:52:43 PM »
That guy was really friendly to me when I first started talking to him, then when my book started out-selling his, he started badmouthing me behind the scenes. He was a real scumbag to me, in my estimation. I also can't imagine why he operates a message board where half the moderators are selling steroids...that's just poor form.

Honestly, I've read some stuff he's written and always walk away shaking my head in disbelief...he claims you retain more water with EQ over Deca, and other stuff like that. I can't imagine anyone who actually uses steroids to make some of the claims he does.

In the case of Sustanon, I suppose depending on the price you get it at, it's not as good as other types of test, if they're going to be cheaper. But that's really a financial consideration, and not reflective of the drug itself but rather of economic factors. If you get sust as cheaply as you get other testosterone, then it's just as good.


And thank you to the person that brought this to my attention.

Just to clarify, I very much enjoy working with and sharing ideas with others in the field. I was friends with Paul Borresen before he died. I wrote the foreword to his last book, and we planned to co-author another book together. I enjoy a good relationship with ALR. I have no jealously over competition. Competition is good and it keeps me sharp. The fact is, your having a competing book has nothing to do with the state of our relationship.

The issues we have had were rooted with your inability to support your conclusions, the advice you give, and your unbelievable arrogance. If you are going to represent yourself as an authority on the subject of steroids and performance-enhancing drugs, and are going to propose very controversial theories, you need to be prepared to support and explain them. Instead of supporting your assertions, you generally get nasty and belligerent at any requests for clarification, or worse any disagreement with your theories (name calling, etc.). It has happened with many people that have tried to discuss your ideas with you on a public forum, not just myself, and I would guess it is why you don't open yourself and your work up to public scrutiny very often these days.

The last time we interacted, I think I had asked you to support you assertion that people with bad cholesterol should take furazabol, an oral c17aa steroid, to improve values. In response you posted a pirated copy of my book for people to download, to "teach me a lessen". If anyone needs a lessen on good manners, it is you, not I. I was nice to you when you first contacted me, but alas, it was because we had first spoke and I hadn't come to know Anthony Roberts better.




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DIVISION

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2006, 02:58:19 PM »
The main problem with Sustanon is that you can't find reliable pharmacokinetics on it. What is known of the esters supports the conclusion that it is too sharp to consider "slow and steady". It isn't the first time that conclusion has been drawn either. I am just reiterating it to the community, really. Can't say it is impossible that this assesment is wrong, but it seems the most reasonable given what we know about it.

Surely there must be a diagraph or chart relaying the half-life of each ester as well as the preparation as a whole somewhere.

Perhaps something I'd have to contact Organon for?




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Luolamies

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 03:04:41 PM »
All the guys that i know have had great results with cycles based on sustanon (organon pakistan and nile sust), then again i have met a couple of old schoolers who don´t like it because of the "time release" ,personally i liked sust when i did it. I guess to each his own...
TEST+DECA+DBOL=BIG

w_llewellyn

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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2006, 04:20:55 AM »
Surely there must be a diagraph or chart relaying the half-life of each ester as well as the preparation as a whole somewhere.

Perhaps something I'd have to contact Organon for?




DIV

We have the info on the esters, but I thus far haven't been able to locate a pharmacokinetics study on Sustanon itself. The drug was never introduced in the U.S., and thus the U.S. Journals have no real mention of it. Organon has been historically poorly responsive with us, due to the nature of the book be publish. Maybe if someone else contacted them they'd have luck. If anyone comes across it, let me know..

Right now I am stull very comfortable with the assesment.. Personally, I suspect one of the reasons they never brought it to the U.S. (which is an ample market to sell the drug in) is the pharmacokinetics. If Sustanon really was "slow and steady", it would be a no-brainer to substitute with TE/TC in TRT patients.



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Re: W. Llewellyn Sust
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2006, 11:49:25 AM »
We have the info on the esters, but I thus far haven't been able to locate a pharmacokinetics study on Sustanon itself. The drug was never introduced in the U.S., and thus the U.S. Journals have no real mention of it. Organon has been historically poorly responsive with us, due to the nature of the book be publish. Maybe if someone else contacted them they'd have luck. If anyone comes across it, let me know..

Right now I am stull very comfortable with the assesment.. Personally, I suspect one of the reasons they never brought it to the U.S. (which is an ample market to sell the drug in) is the pharmacokinetics. If Sustanon really was "slow and steady", it would be a no-brainer to substitute with TE/TC in TRT patients.

So the possibility of getting a graph chart backing up Sustanon's claims is unlikely?

Given the reputation of Organon, you'd think they would glady back up their product's claims, right?




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