Author Topic: A Christian Martyr  (Read 2999 times)

Diesel1

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A Christian Martyr
« on: November 13, 2006, 02:30:04 AM »
Germany ponders pastor's grisly suicide

By BRIAN MURPHY
AP Religion Writer

ERFURT, Germany (AP) -- We know this much: The 73-year-old pastor's last sermon focused on his fear that Christian Europe would be overwhelmed by Islam.

A few weeks later, at one of the most important Lutheran landmarks, the Rev. Roland Weisselberg soaked himself in gasoline and set himself ablaze.

He left no suicide note, and the meaning of his final words is still the subject of conjecture.

But in a time when Christians and Muslims in Europe lurch from one crisis to the next, the poetry-quoting, retired Lutheran minister is being proclaimed a self-martyr - the latest victim in a growing conflict between the cross and the crescent.

"What's sad is that many people are so quick to believe that he killed himself to protest Islam. They want to believe it," said Bishop Christoph Kaehler, who leads the German Protestant Church in the eastern Thuringia state, which includes historic Erfurt, where the 16th-century Reformation trailblazer Martin Luther took his first religious vows.

"Weisselberg has become a magnet for fears and suspicions about Muslims," Kaehler said. "It's an unfortunate lesson in how tense things have become."

Germany has felt that uneasiness in many ways recently.

Last month, a Turkish-born lawmaker sought protection from death threats after calling Islamic head scarves a symbol of oppression of women.

In Berlin, an opera company has become Europe's latest freedom of expression flash point. A planned production of Mozart's "Idomeneo" outraged Muslims with a scene depicting the severed heads of the Prophet Muhammad along with other religious figures including Jesus and Buddha.

Pope Benedict XVI used a speech at a German university in September to decry violent trends in Islam, setting off a maelstrom of protests around the world. The German pontiff is scheduled to begin a visit to Turkey on Nov. 28 in his first papal trip to a mostly Muslim nation.

Weisselberg was not a silent bystander.

He wrote letters to newspapers, venting on a range of topics. Most were packaged around his belief that European Christians had become too meek and separated from the faith's bold history - such as Luther's famous call for spiritual renewal, which helped stir the Protestant Reformation.

Weisselberg's writings and conversations also were peppered with literary references, especially to the 19th-century German poets Heinrich Heine and Friedrich Holderlin, whose works were influence by the conquests of Napoleon.

In his last sermon in late September - called from retirement to fill in for an absent minister - Weisselberg said Christians in Europe must unite or risk being overrun by Islam in generations to come.

Then, on Oct. 31, he walked through the stone arches of the St. Augustine Monastery, a place where from 1505 to 1511 Luther lived, studied and took monastic vows. A morning service was under way for Reformation Day, the anniversary of Luther's famous 95 Theses, which helped inspire the Protestant break from Rome.

Police say Weisselberg cut through a gap between a hedgerow and a metal fence circling a construction pit for a new library - on a site where more than 250 people died during Allied air strikes near the end of World War II.

Weisselberg pulled out a canister of gasoline hidden under his coat. An instant later, he was ablaze. Witnesses told authorities he cried two words: "Jesus" and "Oskar" - considered a reference to the Rev. Oskar Bruesewitz, who set himself on fire in 1976 as an apparent protest against the communist East German regime.

Weisselberg died the following day. No formal suicide note was found. But his widow - who has refused to speak publicly - told a church official that her husband left behind a letter describing his angst over Islam's rising power in Europe.

Within hours, Weisselberg's story was being told and retold as an act of self-martyrdom.

Anti-Muslim groups across Europe have exalted his name. Christian Web sites have given him top billing - in a repeat of the global cyber-eulogies for an Italian missionary, Sister Leonella Sgorbati, who was gunned down in Somalia in September in possible retaliation to the pope's comments on Islam.

"In the absence of any clear reason, people will form their own judgments," said Lothar Schmeltz, curator of the St. Augustine Monastery. "In this case - and in these times - it's easy to see this as one man's lonely fight against Islam."

In the monastery's main church, tributes to Weisselberg have been left on a small wooden table near towering stained glass windows. Amid the wilting flowers and votive candles is a wreath with a message on a yellow ribbon: "We hope this act bears fruit."

"He had planned the time, the place and even planned his own funeral," said the Rev. Uwe Edom, who succeeded Weisselberg at a suburban parish outside Erfurt following his retirement in 1989. "Why on earth did he not tell us precisely why he would take his own life? It now leaves it open for any interpretation and abuse. Weisselberg's legacy is now one of a cry against Islam, even if he wanted that or not."

Ironically, Weisselberg's death occurred in a place where Islam is still barely noticeable.

Unlike Berlin and other major urban centers in western Germany, the former East Germany has only recently become host to significant numbers of Muslim immigrants. The West opened its doors to a huge flow of so-called "guest workers," mostly from Turkey, during the postwar reconstruction while Erfurt and other cities moved into the Soviet orbit behind the Berlin Wall. On Friday, the pope urged Catholics in Germany to seek "spiritual dialogue" with the nation's more than 3 million Muslims.

Only an estimated 1,000 Muslims are among the 200,000 people in Erfurt, now a mix of post-unification malls and hotels amid an architectural bounty of carefully preserved Gothic-style buildings and medieval churches.

In Weisselberg's neatly kept suburb, Windischholzhausen, one of his former parishioners claimed he's never had a conversation with a Muslim. But he feels a kinship to those who raise alarms about Islam's swelling voice in Western Europe, where France and Germany contain the largest Muslim communities.

"The reverend was worried that Islam would eventually push Christians out of Europe," said Wolfgang Seifert, 70. "I don't agree with his suicide, but I agree with his message. I understand these fears."

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Nordic Superman

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2006, 03:21:24 AM »
Time to move the muslims back to the shitholes they came from.

Diesel, note me 1 way in which the introduction of islam has benefitted Europe.

Can you do it? Can ANYONE?
الاسلام هو شيطانية

24KT

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2006, 03:33:20 AM »
It provided a rallying cry around which to stop killing themselves, and launch a crusade against muslims.

The wealth the templars stole from the middle east went on to build many churches, villages and other european infrastructure.

Not shut up!

Please and thank you.  :)
w

Nordic Superman

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2006, 03:41:53 AM »
It provided a rallying cry around which to stop killing themselves, and launch a crusade against muslims.

The wealth the templars stole from the middle east went on to build many churches, villages and other european infrastructure.

Not shut up!

Please and thank you.  :)

Sorry let's not live in the past. Let's not forget the whole nations islam stole eh?

I'm talking modern times you stupid liberal witch! You liberals like to bring up the past don't you? Should I apologise for being white cause my ancestors enslaved yours? Does their guilt translate to my guilt?

Know your role women and stay in the kitchen! >:(
الاسلام هو شيطانية

headhuntersix

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2006, 06:35:38 AM »
Time to move the muslims back to the shitholes they came from.

Diesel, note me 1 way in which the introduction of islam has benefitted Europe.

Can you do it? Can ANYONE?

Not a friggen thing..you don't here from the educated ones because they blend into society..the rest drain the socialist economies and cause major problems for all you folks who live there. I love Englnad..been there a few times..relatives etc..they're killing it.
L

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2006, 07:20:00 AM »
You can't solve the worlds problems by delivering people from the problem... you fix the problem... In America, the problem is not illegals flooding across the border for work, the problem is that the conditions in Mexico need elevated...  How's that going to never happen if all of the best most willing part of the workforce leaves is it?  Or the most angry muslims all flee their country from the tyranny?  The country is left in tyranny with more of the radical population who now have a mandate being in a greather majority.  Most importantly, we have to QUIT holding down other nations... especially south and central America...  No more economic hitmen, no more CIA puppets, no more raping of other people's recourses... How the fuck do you think all of these people become radicalized living in abject poverty with no light at the end of the tunnel???...  You want to fix the problem, support and believe in leaders like Evo Morales... They are the cure to the poison.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/22/1323211&mode=thread&tid=25

a_joker10

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2006, 08:56:09 AM »
It provided a rallying cry around which to stop killing themselves, and launch a crusade against muslims.

The wealth the templars stole from the middle east went on to build many churches, villages and other european infrastructure.

Not shut up!

Please and thank you.  :)

I think you are confusing the Byzantines and Muslims. Muslims were poor ass. The Byzantines rich and Christian. After looting the Byzantines it made it easy for the Muslims to take them over and form Turkey.

Read some history.
Z

a_joker10

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2006, 09:01:24 AM »
You can't solve the worlds problems by delivering people from the problem... you fix the problem... In America, the problem is not illegals flooding across the border for work, the problem is that the conditions in Mexico need elevated...  How's that going to never happen if all of the best most willing part of the workforce leaves is it?  Or the most angry muslims all flee their country from the tyranny?  The country is left in tyranny with more of the radical population who now have a mandate being in a greather majority.  Most importantly, we have to QUIT holding down other nations... especially south and central America...  No more economic hitmen, no more CIA puppets, no more raping of other people's recourses... How the f**k do you think all of these people become radicalized living in abject poverty with no light at the end of the tunnel???...  You want to fix the problem, support and believe in leaders like Evo Morales... They are the cure to the poison.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/22/1323211&mode=thread&tid=25

Do you believe in the World Trade Organization? The group pushing for free trade in food production, this is the single biggest issue keeping poor countries down. America and the EU are fighting to maintain their monopolies on food production and this harms all poor nations.
Do you believe in Free trade to the 50 poorest nations depending on good governance.
If you you do and which I do, lobby your congressman. Democrats are moving away from the free trade model so that they can protect jobs at home, this is counter productive.
Z

Nordic Superman

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2006, 09:29:29 AM »
You can't solve the worlds problems by delivering people from the problem... you fix the problem... In America, the problem is not illegals flooding across the border for work, the problem is that the conditions in Mexico need elevated...  How's that going to never happen if all of the best most willing part of the workforce leaves is it?  Or the most angry muslims all flee their country from the tyranny?  The country is left in tyranny with more of the radical population who now have a mandate being in a greather majority.  Most importantly, we have to QUIT holding down other nations... especially south and central America...  No more economic hitmen, no more CIA puppets, no more raping of other people's recourses... How the f**k do you think all of these people become radicalized living in abject poverty with no light at the end of the tunnel???...  You want to fix the problem, support and believe in leaders like Evo Morales... They are the cure to the poison.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/22/1323211&mode=thread&tid=25

Hey buddy, you're really out of your depth here. I'll let you on a little secret, you only THINK you know what you're speaking about with regards to this issue.

Stop making comparisons of the Americas and Europe, the political ecosystems are mutually exclusive on topics such as this. Mexico, and mass immigration from islamic countries are worlds apart.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

JasonH

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2006, 09:34:05 AM »
I'm with Elton John on this one - just ban religion completely. Make it illegal.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2006, 09:36:48 AM »
Do you believe in the World Trade Organization?<--NO The group pushing for free trade in food production, this is the single biggest issue keeping poor countries down. America and the EU are fighting to maintain their monopolies on food production and this harms all poor nations.
Do you believe in Free trade to the 50 poorest nations depending on good governance.
If you you do and which I do, lobby your congressman. Democrats are moving away from the free trade model so that they can protect jobs at home, this is counter productive.
No absolutely not...  It's a demon masquerading as an angel...  look deeper....

Profit Over People
Neoliberalism and Global Order
Noam Chomsky
http://www.sevenstories.com/Book/index.cfm?GCOI=58322100100330

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2006, 09:41:35 AM »
Hey buddy, you're really out of your depth here. I'll let you on a little secret, you only THINK you know what you're speaking about with regards to this issue.

Stop making comparisons of the Americas and Europe, the political ecosystems are mutually exclusive on topics such as this. Mexico, and mass immigration from Islamic countries are worlds apart.
Zip it dickweed... I didn't make any comparisons between America and Europe... I addressed a global problem and if you had half a braincell, you would know that my statement supports your cause you idiot... I just came out against the migration of Muslims into Europe.  ::) Dumb and dumber ::)

Nordic Superman

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2006, 09:44:07 AM »
Zip it dickweed... I didn't make any comparisons between America and Europe... I addressed a global problem and if you had half a braincell, you would know that my statement supports your cause you idiot... I just came out against the immigration of Muslims into Europe.  ::) Dumb and dumber ::)

TBH I don't even read your drivel anymore, I just like to attack you at any given opertunity!
الاسلام هو شيطانية

a_joker10

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 09:50:26 AM »
No absolutely not...  It's a demon masquerading as an angel...  look deeper....

Profit Over People
Neoliberalism and Global Order
Noam Chomsky
http://www.sevenstories.com/Book/index.cfm?GCOI=58322100100330

The WTO is the only way to lower trade barriers for developing nations. Direct subsidizes won't help.
Sure it might exploit cheap labour, but in the end 12 dollars a day is better then 10 cents. The added bonus is that these countries have access to European and North American markets to trade goods.

Free trade has been good for Canada and the US. We export more raw materials to your country and you get more high tech jobs.

Nordic you asked which Muslim has helped Europe and I can't give you an answer, but two are really helping the developing world.

Quote
Mr. Yunus and his organization, Grameen Bank, were awarded the peace prize last month for helping provide credit to some of the world’s poorest people through small loans, enabling them to start or expand their businesses or self-employment opportunities. Recipients of microcredit loans often have no other way to borrow money to get ahead or are kept poor by their debts to money lenders.

Mr. Yunus identified credit as a way for people to escape poverty 30 years ago and decided to reach out to the poor in his native Bangladesh. About 80 per cent of the poorest families in the country have now been helped through such programs, he said.
http://www.herald.ns.ca/Front/540531.html

Quote
A $5m prize for Africa's most effective head of state is being launched by one of the continent's top businessmen.

UK-based mobile phone entrepreneur Mo Ibrahim - who was born in Egypt - is behind the plan to rate governance in 53 African countries each year.

The contest, launched in London, will award winning leaders $5m (£2.7m) over 10 years when they leave office, plus $200,000 (£107,000) a year for life.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6086088.stm

Z

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2006, 09:55:33 AM »
I don't even read...
That was completely obvious when you up and attack an idea that that supports your biggest complaints ::) As memory serves, you have done this from the first time you arrived here until now... No big shock...  ::)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2006, 10:02:21 AM »
The WTO is the only way to lower trade barriers for developing nations. Direct subsidizes won't help.
Sure it might exploit cheap labour, but in the end 12 dollars a day is better then 10 cents. The added bonus is that these countries have access to European and North American markets to trade goods.

Free trade has been good for Canada and the US. We export more raw materials to your country and you get more high tech jobs.


Yup, sounds like that came right out of a corporate PR manual... Now that you have the CEO's line down pat, all I can say it please ballance this information with a critical viewpoint...

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2006, 10:06:55 AM »
Hey buddy, you're really out of your depth here. I'll let you on a little secret, you only THINK you know what you're speaking about with regards to this issue.

Stop making comparisons of the Americas and Europe, the political ecosystems are mutually exclusive on topics such as this. Mexico, and mass immigration from Islamic countries are worlds apart.
Oh yea, one more thing... If you didn't read what I said, how did you come up with a comparison between America and Europe?... At least tell the truth... You read, but didn't understand what I said... ;)

a_joker10

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2006, 10:18:40 AM »
Yup, sounds like that came right out of a corporate PR manual... Now that you have the CEO's line down pat, all I can say it please ballance this information with a critical viewpoint...

The real problem with the WTO is the exploitation of child labour and dangerous working conditions. These are very real and bad. Outside ownership of markets can be deadly too. Look at how the Dole corporation overthrew the Kingdom of Hawaii solely based on economics.

I will tell you right now though, If you see how India's, Singapore's, Taiwan's, Vietnam's, etc economies have grown and how the standard of life has increased in these countries I would imagine that they would say it was worth joining the WTO.
Countries like Iran, Bangladesh, and Pakistan all started with the same amount of Money and support structure after Britain left. However India has been the greatest economic power and is on par with China for growth.

If you can give me some good examples of how the WTO has let down countries I would like to hear it.

Free Trade everywhere with strong democracies is the only solution for lasting peace everywhere.

Our former government under Jean Chretien pushed this model and even reduce our grain subsides at the request of the WTO, then America and Europe raised theirs. This further isolated the poor.


How can Afghanistan grow anything for profit, if the world markets are artificially low? How do companies invest in Afghanistan if the levels of duties is prohibitive?
Z

Nordic Superman

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2006, 10:31:00 AM »
Oh yea, one more thing... If you didn't read what I said, how did you come up with a comparison between America and Europe?... At least tell the truth... You read, but didn't understand what I said... ;)

Well I did scan-read your post.

My ability to interpret your liberal encrypted statements may actually need some work, but likewise, maybe your ability to project your arguement needs work?
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2006, 10:50:59 AM »
Well I did scan-read your post.

My ability to interpret your liberal encrypted statements may actually need some work, but likewise, maybe your ability to project your argument needs work?
You let me know where my statement wasn't clear?  a_joker didn't seem to have a problem reading what I said....


  a_joker, I will respond to your post, it's just difficult if you're not willing to review suggested material so give me a bit and I'll do my best to summarize a massive arguement.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2006, 10:58:38 AM »
Come on Nordic... Sometimes we agree, sometimes not... I would think this is a time we should agree?  no??? Why is there a problem???

Churchill had his liberal side you know, you don't seem to have a problem siding with the part of Churchill's life that you like?

Churchill once said, "the cause of the Liberal Party is the cause of the left-out millions," and attacked the Conservatives as "the Party of the rich against the poor, the classes and their dependents against the masses, of the lucky, the wealthy, the happy, and the strong, against the left-out and the shut-out millions of the weak and poor." Churchill berated the Conservatives for lacking even a "single plan of social reform or reconstruction," while boasting that his "New Liberalism" offered "a wide, comprehensive, interdependent scheme of social organisation," incorporating "a massive series of legislative proposals and administrative acts."

a_joker10

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2006, 11:10:52 AM »
You let me know where my statement wasn't clear?  a_joker didn't seem to have a problem reading what I said....


  a_joker, I will respond to your post, it's just difficult if you're not willing to review suggested material so give me a bit and I'll do my best to summarize a massive arguement.

I have read some of Noam Chomsky works. I just don't agree.

I find myself becoming more aligned with Neoliberals as I get older. I think that both Thatcher and Regan were right about many of the solutions of the world problems. I don't like how the Neoliberal model tends to make a large amount of debt before it starts to work. But in my opion it is the best answer to most. Then again I think Adam smith and Thomas Hume were the two of the best thinkers.
Z

amc1980

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2006, 11:11:34 AM »
Time to move the muslims back to the shitholes they came from.

Diesel, note me 1 way in which the introduction of islam has benefitted Europe.

Can you do it? Can ANYONE?

Little Iranian Honeys?

Nordic Superman

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2006, 11:13:24 AM »
Come on Nordic... Sometimes we agree, sometimes not... I would think this is a time we should agree?  no??? Why is there a problem???

Churchill had his liberal side you know, you don't seem to have a problem siding with the part of Churchill's life that you like?

Churchill once said, "the cause of the Liberal Party is the cause of the left-out millions," and attacked the Conservatives as "the Party of the rich against the poor, the classes and their dependents against the masses, of the lucky, the wealthy, the happy, and the strong, against the left-out and the shut-out millions of the weak and poor." Churchill berated the Conservatives for lacking even a "single plan of social reform or reconstruction," while boasting that his "New Liberalism" offered "a wide, comprehensive, interdependent scheme of social organisation," incorporating "a massive series of legislative proposals and administrative acts."

I generally consider myself a liberal, but given the enviroment in Europe as it stands and the fact we don't have any true LIBERAL parties (only liberal socialism exists as far as I can see in Europe) people can't afford support the liberals for the basic sake of Europe.

I'm only conservative on immigration etc. People can be gay, etc etc I couldn't care less (there's obviously a fine line, e.g. a euro muzzie and holding signs saying "Behead those who insult islam", "Down with Europe").

I also believe each individual country should be taught self nationalism in school (the Brits are only patriotic when it comes to sport). I guess this can be interpretted as a conservative stance.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Christian Martyr
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2006, 11:29:50 AM »
I generally consider myself a liberal, but given the enviroment in Europe as it stands and the fact we don't have any true LIBERAL parties (only liberal socialism exists as far as I can see in Europe) people can't afford support the liberals for the basic sake of Europe.

I'm only conservative on immigration etc. People can be gay, etc etc I couldn't care less (there's obviously a fine line, e.g. a euro muzzie and holding signs saying "Behead those who insult islam", "Down with Europe").

I also believe each individual country should be taught self nationalism in school (the Brits are only patriotic when it comes to sport). I guess this can be interpretted as a conservative stance.
wow... so i'm confussed, you mean most of your attacks on me are just for the sake of attacking me?  I don't get it :-\