Author Topic: what do you guys make of this  (Read 4678 times)

Necrosis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9899
what do you guys make of this
« on: November 13, 2006, 06:32:47 PM »
there was a study conducted in the 80's by randolph byrd in which subjects prayed FOR 393 cancer patients, in a double blind controlled study. the prayed for patients got better 10%(significant by a mile) faster then the control patients. this study was then replicated ten years later by the kansas city heart institute and received better results(11%) with 919 patients. how could prayer effect others, that is how did peoples thoughts effect matter of others. i have my theories, but any ideas. atheist and theists.

Hedgehog

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19466
  • It Rubs The Lotion On Its Skin.
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2006, 06:43:43 PM »
Similar results have been reached with placebo pills.

It is a widespread notion in Christianity that God does not interfer in human life. It goes against God's principles to interfer.

TBH, asking God to do you favors, or to thank God, like Ronnie Coleman does, shows fundamental lack of understanding of how God handles us.

He does not interfer. So he does not interfer EVER.

Any Christian who thinks there is such a thing as Divine intervention, has a huge glitch in their understanding of their religion. But I would guess that many Christians would answer that God really came and helped these people.

Praying for mercy and praying for a better life isn't gonna change anything. One can however praise the Lord, simply pray and contemplate over the mysterious ways of the Lord and how to be a good Christian.

YIP
Zack
As empty as paradise

AVBG

  • Guest
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2006, 06:45:09 PM »
God cannot be simply explained.

Necrosis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9899
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2006, 08:01:45 PM »
agree with hedgehog completely, there is seperation, that is the only way we have free will and can choose to love god. any interference would make us robots in a sense, to have free will and choice is to be seperated. however,  the thing that is crazy here is that others positive thoughts effect others, they prayed to make people healthier and it worked. i dont think god did it, but thought has effect over matter at distance, this is the same thing as proven telepathy. perhaps the mind isnt a product of matter is my thesis here.

OzmO

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2006, 08:08:59 PM »
agree with hedgehog completely, there is seperation, that is the only way we have free will and can choose to love god. any interference would make us robots in a sense, to have free will and choice is to be seperated. however,  the thing that is crazy here is that others positive thoughts effect others, they prayed to make people healthier and it worked. i dont think god did it, but thought has effect over matter at distance, this is the same thing as proven telepathy. perhaps the mind isnt a product of matter is my thesis here.

usmokepole,  have you ever watched or read  "what the "bleep" do we know?  I'd be very interested in your comments on it.

Necrosis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9899
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2006, 08:16:10 PM »
ill comment on it in about a week or so, im reading physics of the soul which have some times with it. the premise of the movie is very interesting and something im somewhat familiar with. that is consciouness is the real reality and creates matter, or selects a reality from the infinite probabilities. once im done reading the book ill  probably have a better grasp on it. most physicists can deny it, but do so because it would result in a paradigm shift and fuck up the last couple hundred years of science. im not convinced on it either but after reading more and more material from some of the physicists claiming it, it seems more likely. ill post the arguments when im done. if your interested in this here is something to read by one of the physicists in the movie.

http://www.wie.org/j11/goswami.asp?page=3

Necrosis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9899
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2006, 08:43:45 PM »
dont get me wrong though, it is highly speculative at the moment.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63777
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2006, 09:44:51 PM »
Similar results have been reached with placebo pills.

It is a widespread notion in Christianity that God does not interfer in human life. It goes against God's principles to interfer.

TBH, asking God to do you favors, or to thank God, like Ronnie Coleman does, shows fundamental lack of understanding of how God handles us.

He does not interfer. So he does not interfer EVER.

Any Christian who thinks there is such a thing as Divine intervention, has a huge glitch in their understanding of their religion. But I would guess that many Christians would answer that God really came and helped these people.

Praying for mercy and praying for a better life isn't gonna change anything. One can however praise the Lord, simply pray and contemplate over the mysterious ways of the Lord and how to be a good Christian.

YIP
Zack

I disagree.  In fact, anyone who has experienced answered prayers will disagree.  God intervenes all the time.  The Bible talks about asking for help.  God provides it.  This is part of the power of choice.  You choose to ask for help and God provides it. 

What happens with many people is selfish requests.  James talks about it:  "You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures."  James 4:3.  I have to be very careful with this.  I fall into this trap all the time.   

Bigger Business

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6309
  • FKN Gym Wear
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2006, 09:51:57 PM »
I disagree.  In fact, anyone who has experienced answered prayers will disagree.  God intervenes all the time.  The Bible talks about asking for help.  God provides it.  This is part of the power of choice.  You choose ask for help and God provides it. 

What happens with many people is selfish requests.  James talks about it:  "You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures."  James 4:3.  I have to be very careful with this.  I fall into this trap all the time.   

ahhhh so if it works out you must have asked for the right help, if it dosnt you messed up the request

strong post  ;D


Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63777
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2006, 10:05:36 PM »
ahhhh so if it works out you must have asked for the right help, if it dosnt you messed up the request

strong post  ;D



Precisely.  You learn fast grasshopper.   ;D  Sometimes the answer is "yes."  Sometimes "no."  Sometimes "wait."  For me the answer is often "wait."  I hate that answer.   

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2006, 11:34:55 PM »
Sincere prayers that communicate with God (the life force that runs throughout the universe) are always answered The challenge is that for many, the answers and the requests do not arrive immediately, ...and certainly not always in the form that we think they should, ...so we therefore fail to recognize them.
w

Bigger Business

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6309
  • FKN Gym Wear
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2006, 12:31:26 AM »
Sincere prayers that communicate with God (the life force that runs throughout the universe) are always answered The challenge is that for many, the answers and the requests do not arrive immediately, ...and certainly not always in the form that we think they should, ...so we therefore fail to recognize them.

translation: i found 5 bucks on my way to work yesterday

Butterbean

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19326
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2006, 06:25:50 AM »
Similar results have been reached with placebo pills.

It is a widespread notion in Christianity that God does not interfer in human life. It goes against God's principles to interfer.

TBH, asking God to do you favors, or to thank God, like Ronnie Coleman does, shows fundamental lack of understanding of how God handles us.

He does not interfer. So he does not interfer EVER.

Any Christian who thinks there is such a thing as Divine intervention, has a huge glitch in their understanding of their religion. But I would guess that many Christians would answer that God really came and helped these people.

Praying for mercy and praying for a better life isn't gonna change anything. One can however praise the Lord, simply pray and contemplate over the mysterious ways of the Lord and how to be a good Christian.

YIP
Zack

I also disagree with this.  The bible is full of instances where God "intervenes" and also answers prayer.


Acts 9 is a pretty straightforward example of God "intervening in someone's life"

Acts 9
Saul's Conversion
 1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
 5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

   "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

 10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
      "Yes, Lord," he answered.

 11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

 13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."

 15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

 17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his


Answer to prayer/intervention:

Genesis 24:12-20


 12 Then he prayed, "O LORD, God of my master Abraham, give me success today, and show kindness to my master Abraham. 13 See, I am standing beside this spring, and the daughters of the townspeople are coming out to draw water. 14 May it be that when I say to a girl, 'Please let down your jar that I may have a drink,' and she says, 'Drink, and I'll water your camels too'-let her be the one you have chosen for your servant Isaac. By this I will know that you have shown kindness to my master."

 15 Before he had finished praying, Rebekah came out with her jar on her shoulder. She was the daughter of Bethuel son of Milcah, who was the wife of Abraham's brother Nahor. 16 The girl was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever lain with her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar and came up again.

 17 The servant hurried to meet her and said, "Please give me a little water from your jar."

 18 "Drink, my lord," she said, and quickly lowered the jar to her hands and gave him a drink.

 19 After she had given him a drink, she said, "I'll draw water for your camels too, until they have finished drinking." 20 So she quickly emptied her jar into the trough, ran back to the well to draw more water, and drew enough for all his camels.



these are just a few instances among many :)

R

Colossus_500

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3993
  • Psalm 139
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2006, 06:34:07 AM »
God does not ever intervene?   ???  What an incredibly asinine perspective.

I'm sorry, that's just flat out erroneous!  If God were not to ever intervene in our lives, then how are our lives to be changed by accepting Christ into our hearts to be Lord over our lives??? 

STella, Beach, thanks for backing this up with scriptural references! 

Bigger Business

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6309
  • FKN Gym Wear
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2006, 06:52:26 AM »
If God were not to ever intervene in our lives,

by all accounts

you've intervened into his  ;)

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19094
  • loco like a fox
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2006, 11:24:40 AM »
subjects prayed FOR 393 cancer patients....the prayed for patients got better...but any ideas. atheist and theists.

God heard those who prayed and healed those who were sick.  Very simple.

James 5:14
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him

James 5:15
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well

It is a widespread notion in Christianity that God does not interfer in human life...He does not interfer. So he does not interfer EVER.
Any Christian who thinks there is such a thing as Divine intervention, has a huge glitch in their understanding of their religion.

God disagrees...and so do I, from personal experience.  It is very sad that you or anybody would believe that God does not interfer.

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.

1 Peter 5:7
Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

Psalm 94:19
When anxiety was great within me, your consolation brought joy to my soul.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Philippians 4:19
And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus

2 Chronicles 20:6
and said: "O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not the God who is in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations.

Daniel 4:25
the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes.

Matthew 6:10
Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.

Acts 17:24-28
"He gives to all life, breath, and all things. "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,  "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;"for in Him we live and move and have our being

Romans 8:28-39
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 

Job 5
9 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
       miracles that cannot be counted.

 10 He bestows rain on the earth;
       he sends water upon the countryside.

 11 The lowly he sets on high,
       and those who mourn are lifted to safety.

 12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
       so that their hands achieve no success.

 13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
       and the schemes of the wily are swept away.

 14 Darkness comes upon them in the daytime;
       at noon they grope as in the night.

 15 He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth;
       he saves them from the clutches of the powerful.

 16 So the poor have hope,
       and injustice shuts its mouth.

 17 "Blessed is the man whom God corrects;
       so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty. [a]

 18 For he wounds, but he also binds up;
       he injures, but his hands also heal.

 19 From six calamities he will rescue you;
       in seven no harm will befall you.

 20 In famine he will ransom you from death,
       and in battle from the stroke of the sword.

Hedgehog

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19466
  • It Rubs The Lotion On Its Skin.
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2006, 03:35:45 PM »
The only way God can exist, is if he doesn't EVER interfer.

Otherwise there is no explanation for him not interfering in all the evil of mankind.

"Christians" and people of other religions repeatedly credits different Gods for "good" things that occurs on earth. Yet, they fail to see that it cannot be. God would not interfer in minor events, if he allows for big things such as the Tsunami, the 9/11 and other disasters.

God can exist, but only if he chooses to not interfer.

If God chooses to interfer in certain situations, but not in others, he is, in fact, unjust.

And then he is not good.

And cannot exist, since God is good.

BTW, some parts of the Bible are clearly outdated, or not Christianity. That's the beauty of having a bunch of authors collected into one big collection. Only one part is the true words of God - The Ten Commandments.

IMO, the life of Jesus is what should be the guide for any Christian on how to live the Christian life.

YIP
Zack
As empty as paradise

Necrosis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9899
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2006, 05:34:14 PM »
perfect analysis hedge. the reason the prayers effected people is because of morphic resonance in my estimation, a new theory but offers alot of answers.

Necrosis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9899
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2006, 07:21:55 PM »
loco respond to this post if you would, i think hedge put it perfectly, but id like to hear your side.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19094
  • loco like a fox
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2006, 11:36:26 AM »
The only way God can exist, is if he doesn't EVER interfer.
Otherwise there is no explanation for him not interfering in all the evil of mankind.
God would not interfer in minor events, if he allows for big things such as the Tsunami, the 9/11 and other disasters. God can exist, but only if he chooses to not interfer.
If God chooses to interfer in certain situations, but not in others, he is, in fact, unjust.
And then he is not good.
And cannot exist, since God is good.

God always interferes in one way or another.  However, not always interfering does not make him any less good or any less just.  Why would it?  Does a good father always interfere in every aspect of his son's life?  Does a good father spoil his child and gives him everything and does everything for him?  Does he always bail him out when his child is in trouble, whether it is the child's fault or not?  Is this what a good father does?  On the other hand, a good father will interfere in his son's life to an extent.  If he never interfered in his child's life, would that make him a good father?
 
First somebody here said that if God always interferes, then this would make us robots with no freedom of choice and that would make God not so good and not so just.  Now you are saying that God never interferes because if he interferes some and not always, then he is not good and he is not just.  So which is it?
 
Pain, suffering and death are just part of life and part of this world.  God never promised that we would not experience pain, suffering and death in this world.  In the contrary:
 
John 16:33
"In this world you will have trouble"
 
God does not enjoy to see anybody suffer, and neither do I.  There is something wrong with this world and there is something wrong with the relationship between God and humans. This world wasn't always like this.  God gave us a perfect world without pain, without suffering and without death.  He then gave us the privilege and the responsibility to take care of it.  He also gave us free choice.  And we chose to ruin the world and make it what it is today. 
 
We don't establish the standards of what is right. Only God can do that. We need to get it into our heads that whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, good.

My finite mind was created by and infinite God and I don't pretend to understand everything that He does and why He does it.  My wisdom is not God's wisdom and my ways are not God's ways.  God is good, just and sovereign.  Who am I to question him?  Just because we don't always understand God, that does not make him evil or unjust.  God does not answer to us. 
 
Romans 9:20
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

Oh, and I believe the Bible is the word of God.  The Bible says that God is good and just.  Therefore I believe it.  The Bible also says that God does interfere in great and small things in our lives.  Therefore I believe it.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19094
  • loco like a fox
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2006, 11:42:51 AM »
BTW, some parts of the Bible are clearly outdated, or not Christianity. That's the beauty of having a bunch of authors collected into one big collection. Only one part is the true words of God - The Ten Commandments.

IMO, the life of Jesus is what should be the guide for any Christian on how to live the Christian life.

Zack,
These two statements are contradicting.  I agree that "the life of Jesus is what should be the guide for any Christian on how to live the Christian life".  Now, Jesus had the Old Testament memorized and he often quoted it and he referred to it as God's word.  If Jesus believed it to be God's word, then you should believe it to be God's word too.

Hedgehog

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19466
  • It Rubs The Lotion On Its Skin.
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2006, 11:59:10 AM »
Zack,
These two statements are contradicting.  I agree that "the life of Jesus is what should be the guide for any Christian on how to live the Christian life".  Now, Jesus had the Old Testament memorized and he often quoted it and he referred to it as God's word.  If Jesus believed it to be God's word, then you should believe it to be God's word too.

I disagree.

I see Jesus quoting the OT several times. But nowhere do I see him acknowledging that the whole OT is the absolute truth.

He even contradicts the OT several times, the most famous being turning the other cheek, where he actually refers to the "eye for an eye" as well, explaining that to be outdated.

YIP
Zack
As empty as paradise

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19094
  • loco like a fox
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2006, 12:52:25 PM »
I see Jesus quoting the OT several times. But nowhere do I see him acknowledging that the whole OT is the absolute truth.

 
John 17:17
Jesus said to the Father: "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "

Luke 5:1
"One day as Jesus was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret, with the people crowding around him and listening to the word of God,"

Luke 8:21
He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

Luke 11:28
He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

John 10:30-36
I and the Father are one."
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Migs

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14487
  • THERE WAS A FIRE FIGHT!!!!
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2006, 09:24:08 PM »
you ieither get better or don't.  I dount think prayer does much in healing someone.  those people may have been stronger and pulled through better. 

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: what do you guys make of this
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2006, 12:41:29 AM »
translation: i found 5 bucks on my way to work yesterday

{giggle} actually my commute to work is about 20 feet, ...from my bed to the desk.  :D
w