Author Topic: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already  (Read 7638 times)

Delusional Liberal

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Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« on: November 28, 2006, 06:21:59 PM »
AlterNet:

"At almost every progressive gathering where there's a question and answer session, someone or other vehemently raises 9/11 and espouses a grand conspiracy theory. If you haven't had the pleasure of enduring these rants, please let me share.

Here's what the conspiracists believe:

9/11 was an inside job.
Members of the Bush Administration ordered it, not Osama bin Laden.
Arab hijackers may not have done the deed.
On top of that, the Twin Towers fell not because of the impact of the airplanes and the ensuing fires but because the Bush Administration got agents to plant explosives at the base of those buildings.
Building 7, another high-rise at the World Trade Center that fell on 9/11, also came down by planted explosives.
The Pentagon was not hit by American Airlines Flight 77 but by a smaller plane or a missile.
And the Pennsylvania plane did not crash as a result of the revolt by the passengers but was brought down by the military.

I'm amazed at how many people give credence to these theories. Everyone's an engineer. People who never even took one college science course can now hold forth at great length on how the buildings at the World Trade Center could not possibly have collapsed in the way they did and why the Pentagon could not have been struck by that American Airlines jet.

Problem is, some of the best engineers in the country have studied these questions and come up with perfectly logical, scientific explanations for what happened.

The American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA conducted an in-depth investigation of the World Trade Center. The team members included the director of the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers, the senior fire investigator for the National Fire Protection Association, professors of fire safety, and leaders of some of the top building design and engineering firms, including Skidmore Owings & Merrill in Chicago, Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire in Seattle, and Greenhorne & O'Mara in Maryland.

It concluded that massive structural damage caused by the crashing of the aircrafts into the buildings, combined with the subsequent fires, "were sufficient to induce the collapse of both structures."

The National Institute of Standards and Technology did its own forty-three volume study of the Twin Towers. "Some 200 technical experts . . . reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, [and] performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations," the institute says.

It also concluded that a combination of the crash and the subsequent fires brought the towers down: "In each tower, a different combination of impact damage and heat-weakened structural components contributed to the abrupt structural collapse."

Popular Mechanics, first in its March 2005 cover story and now in its expanded book, Debunking 9/11 Myths, after interviewing scores of other experts in the engineering field, takes apart the most popular contentions of the conspiracists. "In every case we examined, the key claims made by conspiracy theorists turned out to be mistaken, misinterpreted, or deliberately falsified," the book says.

I made a few calls myself, including to Gene Corley, who conducted the American Society of Civil Engineers/FEMA study, and to Mete Sozen, structural engineering professor at Purdue, who was one of the principal authors of "The Pentagon Building Performance Report" of January 2003, which was done under the auspices of the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineering Institute. I also contacted engineering professors at MIT and other leading universities in the country, and none of them puts any stock in the 9/11 conspiracy theories. In fact, they view them as a huge waste of time. They are busy trying to figure out how to prevent buildings from falling in the future.

Of course, any conspiracy theorist worth his or her salt will claim that all these people are in on the plot. And that I am in on it, too.

Get over it.

The guru of the 9/11 conspiracy movement is David Ray Griffin, an emeritus professor not of engineering but of philosophy and theology at the Claremont School of Theology. First in The New Pearl Harbor and then in The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions and now in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11, Griffin has peddled his conspiracy theory.

He's not alone, of course. A myriad of websites devote themselves to this subject, and several films are circulating on it, including Loose Change. There's even a group called Scholars for 9/11 Truth, which insists "the World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions." Most prominent among these is Steven E. Jones, professor of physics and astronomy at Brigham Young University, whose primary field is not engineering but cold fusion, according to Debunking 9/11 Myths.

The conspiracy theories are particularly popular on the left for a couple of understandable reasons. It's undeniable that Bush has ceaselessly seized on 9/11 to justify his warmaking abroad and his repressive policies at home. And then there's the notorious phrase in a document of the Project for the New American Century, the fount of neoconservativism, whose members included Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and a host of other hawks who flew into the Bush Administration. That line, from the September 2000 study "Rebuilding America's Defenses," argues for transforming the U.S. military posture into a much more aggressive one, and for expanding the Pentagon's budget to reach $500 billion a year. The authors recognized that this transformation would be difficult to achieve quickly "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event--like a new Pearl Harbor."

Griffin and other leftwing conspiracy theorists put the two together, and voila. The attacks "were orchestrated in order to pave the way for launching unprovoked wars on two countries that provided no threat, whether imminent or long-term, to the people of the United States," he writes in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11. "The Administration and its Pentagon even planned to use 9/11 as a pretext . . . to attack still more countries. The U.S. government was planning, therefore, to use the deaths of some 3,000 people (whom itself had killed) to justify wars that would most likely kill and maim many hundreds of thousands of people, perhaps millions."

Before taking some of the major conspiracy claims one by one, let's examine how outlandish the conspiracy theory is on its face.

First, Osama bin Laden has already claimed responsibility for the attack several times and boasted of the prowess of the suicide bombers who hijacked those planes. Why not take him at his word? And if bin Laden were working in cahoots with the Bush Administration, why was the President warned on August 6, 2001, in a Presidential daily briefing that Osama bin Laden was about to attack the United States? Wouldn't that risk exposing the conspiracy?

Second, if the Bush Administration plotters carried out 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq, why didn't they have Iraqi hijackers do the deed? In actuality, there was not a single Iraqi hijacker, and Bush propagandists had to do all sorts of gymnastics to link Iraq to the actual attackers.

Third, for this conspiracy to have succeeded, it would have had to have been amazingly vast: not only the high level members of the Bush Administration (including the head of the Secret Service, Griffin says in Christian Faith) and the explosives teams, but also many others.

Griffin, in Pearl Harbor, for instance, alleges that Mayor Rudolph Giuliani may have been involved. Griffin quotes Giuliani telling ABC News, "We were operating out of there [Building 7] when we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse." Griffin says Giuliani had no obvious way of knowing that, and concludes: "Giuliani's statement provides, therefore, evidence someone, perhaps he himself, knew something that the firemen in the buildings did not know--which was perhaps that explosives had been placed in the buildings and were about to be set off." Is that really evidence? Isn't it much more likely that the firefighters told the mayor to leave because the fire itself was jeopardizing the building?

Griffin also alleges that Larry Silverstein, who leased the World Trade Center complex, was in on the deal so he could collect the insurance. (This claim--which he might as well have called "The Jew Cashed In"--dovetails with the anti-Semitic conspiracy theory popular in the Middle East that the Mossad blew up the towers and warned the thousands of Jews who would have been working there to stay home.)

In Pearl Harbor, Griffin quotes Silverstein in a 2002 PBS documentary recalling a conversation from the fire department commander on September 11 "telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse." Griffin, who writes that Silverstein "made almost $500 million in profit from the collapse of Building 7," says by "pull it" Silverstein was recommending that the building be demolished by explosives. Silverstein has flat-out denied that. By "pulling it," he has said that he meant giving up on the firefighters' efforts to save the building.

Two books later, Griffin removes any ambiguity Silverstein's "assertion that Building 7 was brought down by explosives, whatever the motive behind it, explains why and how it collapsed," Griffin writes in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11. But Silverstein never made such an assertion, and for Griffin to claim he did is, to say the least, a distortion.

The problems with a vast conspiracy theory are obvious. There's the likelihood that someone along the chain would squeal. Members of the government have been engaged in far less treasonous plots (such as Bush's designs on Iran), and whistleblowers have managed to get the information out to the likes of Seymour Hersh over at The New Yorker. And, on top of that, we're supposed to believe that this incompetent Administration, which brought you Katrina, was somehow able to execute this grand conspiracy?

"The government is not sufficiently competent to pull off such conspiracies and too leaky to keep them secret," said Richard Clarke, the one-time counterterrorism czar for Clinton and Bush, in a blurb for Debunking 9/11 Myths. Clarke has been a harsh critic of Bush, and he was a strong supporter of John Kerry. Don't you think Clarke would have blown the whistle had he known? And who was in a better position than he to know?

Finally, in Pearl Harbor, Griffin acknowledges one enormous, unfillable hole in the conspiracists' theory: If Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, where did it go? And where did all sixty-four people on board go? Griffin pathetically answers: "One cannot expect that the revisionists, being independent researchers with limited budgets and no power to subpoena testimony, could answer all the questions raised by their alternative scenario." But that doesn't stop him from speculating, in a ghoulish way, about one piece of evidence that contradicts his Flight 77 notion: the phone calls from conservative Barbara Olson, who was on Flight 77, to her husband, Ted Olson, Bush's solicitor general. Griffin casts doubt on whether the phone calls actually happened, noting that Olson "is very close to the Bush Administration." At least in Pearl Harbor, Griffin recognizes the weakness of this argument. The conspiracy theorists "still need to explain, of course, what became of Barbara Olson, and also whether it is plausible that Ted Olson would have participated in a plan with that outcome," he writes. In his latest book, though, Griffin does not appear bothered in the least, as he continues to cast doubt on Ted Olson's account. He has swept Barbara Olson and sixty-three other people under the rug.

On to some of Griffin's most oft-cited questions.

Why did dust clouds shoot out of the Twin Towers as they fell?

Or, as Griffin poses it in Pearl Harbor: "What other than explosives could turn concrete into powder and then eject it horizontally 150 feet or more?"

Corley, who headed up the investigation for the American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA, gives a quick response to that. "That is simply the air pressure being pushed down," he says. "Once the collapse started, then you had roughly a twenty-story building and roughly a thirty-story building acting as a very large mass to push everything down. The air pressure gets quite something, and the windows on the lower floors break, and you see puffs of smoke coming out of them." Debunking 9/11 Myths offers the same explanation and cites structural engineer Jon Magnusson, who says this expulsion of air and debris is fairly common when buildings collapse.

Why did the tower that was hit second fall first?

"All other things being equal, then, the tower that was struck first should have collapsed first. And yet, although the South Tower was struck seventeen minutes later than the North Tower, it collapsed twenty-nine minutes earlier," writes Griffin in Pearl Harbor. The fact that the South Tower fell first, he concludes, "suggests that the collapse of these buildings was caused by something other than the fires."

But all things weren't equal. "The damage done to the second building was more serious than the damage done to the first," says Corley.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology concurs. Its "Final Report on the Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers" notes that ten core columns were severed in the South Tower, whereas only six were severed in the North. And 20,000 more square feet of insulation was stripped from the trusses in the South Tower than the North. The report "found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001."

What about Building 7?

This is a favorite of the conspiracy theorists, since the planes did not strike this structure. But the building did sustain damage from the debris of the Twin Towers. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately ten stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out," Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator for the National Institute of Standards and Technology, told Popular Mechanics.

What's more, the fire in the building lasted for about eight hours, in part because there were fuel tanks in the basement and on some of the floors. "The building was designed for a fire duration of no more than about three hours," says Corley. "Eight hours was way more than what that building was designed for." (Corley, by the way, also headed up the investigation of the Murrah Building's collapse in Oklahoma City.)

The National Institute of Standards and Technology is still studying the collapse of Building 7, but its initial report says: "NIST has seen no evidence that the collapse of WTC 7 was caused by bombs, missiles, or controlled demolition."

What about the Pentagon?

Conspiracy theorists will bend your ear explaining that the American Airlines Boeing 757 couldn't possibly have made such a small hole in the Pentagon. Griffin in Pearl Harbor: "The orifice created by the impact . . . was at most eighteen feet in diameter. Is it not absurd to suggest that a Boeing 757 created and then disappeared into such a small hole? . . . Can anyone seriously believe that a 125-foot-wide airplane created and then went inside a hole less than twenty-feet wide?"

First of all, the hole was actually ninety feet wide, according to the "Pentagon Building Performance Report" of January 2003, which the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineering Institute put out. And Professor Sozen of Purdue, one of the authors of that report, has an explanation.

"The reinforced columns of the Pentagon destroyed the wings," says Sozen. "That's why the hole is smaller. It had to be smaller." Since working on that report, Sozen has designed simulations at Purdue, and his results correspond with what happened to Flight 77, he says. Sozen, who identifies himself as a progressive, says it is "ridiculous to deny" that the American Airlines plane hit the Pentagon. And, he adds, if Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, where did it go and "what happened to the people in that plane"?

But we know what happened to them. They died at the Pentagon. "All but five of the 189 people who died on the aircraft and in the Pentagon were later identified through DNA testing," according to Debunking 9/11 Myths.

Finally, was Flight 93 shot down?

Griffin and many other conspiracists allege that Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania, was brought down not by the passengers struggling with the hijackers but by a U.S. missile. But we know from cell phone conversations that passengers on board that plane planned on confronting the hijackers. And, as Debunking 9/11 Myths notes, "a Cleveland air traffic controller assigned to Flight 93 heard signs of a struggle in the cockpit, followed shortly by screaming."

Tapes of the conversations at the northeast regional headquarters for the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) confirm this, as Michael Bronner has shown in his August article for Vanity Fair entitled "9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes." Major Kevin Nasypany was the facility's mission-crew commander that day, and the tapes show him frantically trying to figure what was going on and whether he had orders to shoot Flight 93 down.

"Gimme the call sign," he says at 10:07. "Gimme the whole nine yards. . . . Let's get some info, real quick. They got a bomb?"

But, as Bronner reports, by then "everyone on board is already dead. Following the passengers' counterattack, the plane crashed in a field in Pennsylvania at 10:03 a.m."

The man who headed up the crash site investigation there was Matthew McCormick, a thirty-three-year veteran at the National Transportation Safety Board. "From my investigation there was no pre-impact stress to the airplane," he told the Debunking authors.

To be sure, there are discrepancies and omissions in The 9/11 Commission Report, and the Pentagon and FAA appear to have not been fully truthful and forthcoming about what happened that day. Not every riddle that Griffin and other conspiracists pose has a ready answer. But almost all of their major assertions are baseless. And their own theories have such gigantic holes and require such monumental leaps of logic that they discredit themselves.

At bottom, the 9/11 conspiracy theories are profoundly irrational and unscientific. It is more than passing strange that progressives, who so revere science on such issues as tobacco, stem cells, evolution, and global warming, are so willing to abandon science and give in to fantasy on the subject of 9/11.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a cul-de-sac. They lead nowhere. And they aren't necessary to prove the venality of the Bush Administration. There's plenty of that proof lying around. We don't need to make it up."


kh300

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 06:30:47 PM »
great post. but you have to understand your gonna be dealing with idiots that wont comprehend a word of that.

Delusional Liberal

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Rolling Stone: The Hopeless Stupidity of 9/11 Conspiracies.
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2006, 06:40:52 PM »
 few weeks ago I wrote a column on the anniversary of 9/11 that offhandedly dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "clinically insane." I expected a little bit of heat in response, but nothing could have prepared me for the deluge of fuck-you mail that I actually got. Apparently every third person in the United States thinks George Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks.

"You're just another MSM-whore left gatekeeper paid off by corporate America," said one writer. "What you do isn't journalism at all, you dick," said another. "You're the one who's clinically insane," barked a third, before educating me on the supposed anomalies of physics involved with the collapse of WTC-7.

I have two basic gripes with the 9/11 Truth movement. The first is that it gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dickwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes. In fact, if there were any conspiracy here, I'd be far more inclined to believe that this whole movement was cooked up by Karl Rove as a kind of mass cyber-provocation, along the lines of Gordon Liddy hiring hippie peace protesters to piss in the lobbies of hotels where campaign reporters were staying.

Secondly, it's bad enough that people in this country think Tim LaHaye is a prophet and Sean Hannity is an objective newsman. But if large numbers of people in this country can swallow 9/11 conspiracy theory without puking, all hope is lost. Our best hope is that the Japanese take pity on us and allow us to serve as industrial slaves in their future empire, farming sushi rice and assembling robot toys.

I don't have the space here to address every single reason why 9/11 conspiracy theory is so shamefully stupid, so I'll have to be content with just one point: 9/11 Truth is the lowest form of conspiracy theory, because it doesn't offer an affirmative theory of the crime.

Forget for a minute all those Internet tales about inexplicable skyscraper fires, strange holes in the ground at Shanksville and mysterious flight manifestoes. What is the theory of the crime, according to the 9/11 Truth movement?

Strikingly, there is no obvious answer to that question, since for all the many articles about "Able Danger" and the witnesses who heard explosions at Ground Zero, there is not -- at least not that I could find -- a single document anywhere that lays out a single, concrete theory of what happened, who ordered what and when they ordered it, and why. There obviously is such a theory, but it has to be pieced together by implication, by paying attention to the various assertions of 9/11 lore (the towers were mined, the Pentagon was really hit by a cruise missile, etc.) and then assembling them later on into one single story. But the funny thing is, when you put together all of those disparate theories, you get the dumbest story since Roman Polanski's Pirates.

The specifics vary, but the basic gist of what They Say Happened goes something like this:

A group of power-hungry neocons, led by Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Bush and others and organizationally represented by groups like the Project for the New American Century, seeks to bring about a "Pearl-Harbor-like event" that would accelerate a rightist revolution, laying the political foundation for invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Your basic Reichstag fire scenario, logical enough so far. Except in this story, the Reichstag fire is an immensely complicated media hoax; the conspirators plot to topple the World Trade Center and pin a series of hijackings on a group of Sunni extremists with alleged ties to Al Qaeda. How do they topple the Trade Center? Well, they make use of NORAD's expertise in flying remote-control aircraft and actually fly two such remote-control aircraft into the Towers (in another version of the story, they conspire with Al Qaeda terrorists to actually hijack the planes), then pass the planes off as commercial jetliners in the media. But it isn't the plane crashes that topple the buildings, but bombs planted in the Towers that do the trick.

For good measure -- apparently to lend credence to the hijacking story -- they then fake another hijacking/crash in the Pentagon, where there actually is no plane crash at all but instead a hole created by a cruise missile attack, fired by a mysterious "white jet" that after the attack circles the White House for some time, inspiring the attention of Secret Service agents who point at it curiously from the ground (apparently these White House Secret Service agents were not in on the plot, although FBI agents on scene at Ground Zero and in Shanksville and elsewhere were).

Lastly, again apparently to lend weight to the whole hijacking cover story, they burn a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania and claim that a jet went down there, crashed by a bunch of brave fictional civilians who fictionally storm the fictional plane cabin. The real-life wife of one of the fictional heroes, Lisa Beamer, then writes a convincingly self-serving paean/memoir to her dead husband, again lending tremendous verisimilitude to the hijacking story. These guys are good!

Just imagine how this planning session between Bush, Rummy and Cheney must have gone:

BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

CHENEY: No, Dick, we won't.

RUMSFELD: We won't?

CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dick. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!

CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of fucking nowhere in rural Pennsylvania.

RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of fucking nowhere.

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.
BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

BUSH: Oh, OK.

RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington, D.C., fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters? Shit, didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!

You get the idea. None of this stuff makes any sense at all. If you just need an excuse to assume authoritarian powers, why fake a plane crash in Shanksville? What the hell does that accomplish? If you're using bombs, why fake a hijacking, why use remote-control planes? If the entire government apparatus is in on the scam, then why bother going to all this murderous trouble at all -- only to go to war a year later with a country no one even bothered to falsely blame for the attacks? You won't see any of this explored in 9/11 Truth lore, because the "conspiracy" they're describing is impossible everywhere outside a Zucker brothers movie -- unbelievably stupid in its conception, pointlessly baroque and excessive in its particulars, but flawless in its execution, with no concrete evidence left behind and tens of thousands keeping their roles a secret forever.

We are to imagine that not one of Bush's zillions of murderous confederates would slip and leave real incriminating evidence anywhere along the way, forcing us to deduce this massive crime via things like the shaking of a documentary filmmaker's tripod before the Towers' collapse (aha, see that shaking -- it must have been a bomb planted by the president and his ten thousand allies!). Richard Nixon was a hundred times smarter than Bush, and he couldn't prevent leaks and cries of anguished pseudo-conscience from sprouting among a dozen intimately involved conspirators -- but under the 9/11 conspiracy theory, even the lowest FBI agent used to seal off the crime scene never squeaks. It's absurd.

I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot -- not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together -- that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter. And without that, all the rest of it is bosh and bunkum, on the order of the "sonar evidence" proving the existence of the Loch Ness monster. If you can't put all of these alleged scientific impossibilities together into a story that makes sense, then all you're doing is jerking off -- and it's not like no one's ever done that on the Internet before.

Whenever anyone chooses to dismiss 9/11 conspiracy theorists, accusations fly; the Internet screams that you've aided and abetted George Bush. I disagree. To me, the 9/11 Truth movement is, itself, a classic example of the pathology of George Bush's America. Bush has presided over a country that has become hopelessly divided into insoluble, paranoid tribes, one of which happens to be Bush's own government. All of these tribes have things in common; they're insular movements that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace, violently disbelieve in the humanity of those outside their ranks, and lavishly praise their own movement mediocrities as great thinkers and achievers. There are as many Thomas Paines in the 9/11 Truth movement as there are Isaac Newtons among the Intelligent Design crowd.

There's not a whole lot of difference, psychologically, between Sean Hannity's followers believing liberals to be the same as terrorists, and 9/11 Truthers believing even the lowest soldier or rank-and-file FAA or NORAD official to be a cold-blooded mass murderer. In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of silly tribal bullshit that the concept of "your fellow citizen" has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality. Some, like Bush, sell a prepackaged version. Others just make theirs up out of thin air. God help us.


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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2006, 06:44:48 PM »
What they are going to do is ask common sense questions about the physical and scientific probabilities of what occured with those issues you listed. 

Unfortunatly the common sense questions are based on a non-understanding of physics and or a refusal to see any of the possibilities of the events happening the way they did happen. 

Example:

WTC7:  How could a building come down that fast without explosives?

Answer:  8 hours of fire and exploding gas tanks.

Rebuttal:  No way that could have happened.  Show me a building that was brought down by fire  in the past.  Therefore it must have been an inside job becuase WTC7 went down in way that is outside of the accepted "uneducated" conclusion of people who are not experts in this field.

And the then we go round and round.

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2006, 06:50:38 PM »
i love how you guys make the blanket statement that anyone with doubts(CT's) believe ALL those claims you listed  ::)

id still love to hear an ADEQUATE explaination for wtc7.


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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2006, 06:57:05 PM »
i love how you guys make the blanket statement that anyone with doubts(CT's) believe ALL those claims you listed  ::)

id still love to hear an ADEQUATE explaination for wtc7.



What's adequate?

Weaken structure from debree + fires + gas tanks blowing up at foundation of building with basement = building collapse?

Oh yeah!  the way it collapsed!

So if you stack blocks to form a builing with many rooms it woud be impossible for it collapse all at once if you weaken it and knocked blocks out of the bottom?  Would it fall all at once every time?  probably not, but it would some of the times.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2006, 06:58:44 PM »
How about an adequate explanation of how the great pyramid was built? Becuase if you can't give one then it HAD to be built by aliens!

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2006, 07:00:42 PM »
stop trying to bring common sense into this, ozmo.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2006, 07:02:48 PM »
stop trying to bring common sense into this, ozmo.

Yeah,  as often as i lean to the left even i can't buy into the 9/11 CT's   ;D

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Hopeless Stupidity of 9/11 Conspiracies.
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2006, 07:04:02 PM »
LOL. I'm pulling up a chair to watch the meltdowns . . .

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2006, 07:06:04 PM »
that's your idea of "common sense"???

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2006, 07:56:33 PM »
How about an adequate explanation of how the great pyramid was built? Becuase if you can't give one then it HAD to be built by aliens!
thats another great mystery, the great pyramid and how exactly it was built! wondering about that has nothing to do with 'aliens'. it was built by people, some people, somehow.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2006, 08:04:13 PM »
What's adequate?

Weaken structure from debree + fires + gas tanks blowing up at foundation of building with basement = building collapse?

Oh yeah!  the way it collapsed!

So if you stack blocks to form a builing with many rooms it woud be impossible for it collapse all at once if you weaken it and knocked blocks out of the bottom?  Would it fall all at once every time?  probably not, but it would some of the times.

yes but 'debris' hit all the other buildings around it as well, including smaller, older buildings. the other buildings around it had not only lots of visible debris damage on the outside, but what appeared to be worse fires as well. wtc looked very nearly pristine in all pics and video ive seen of it right up to its collapse...other buildings near it burnt to a crisp and ended up burned out shells, but remained standing. wtc had virtually no 'devistating debris damage' visible, had a small amount of smoke coming from it, then suddenly fell straight down in the most textbook collapse possible. not to mention douchebag admitted to 'pulling it'. hell the newscasters even said on air, when it fell, that it was brought down. then later they said 'oh it fell on its own'.

i dont really buy 99% of these other 'theories' but everything about the wtc7 thing seems pretty damn strange to me.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2006, 08:13:12 PM »
yes but 'debris' hit all the other buildings around it as well, including smaller, older buildings. the other buildings around it had not only lots of visible debris damage on the outside, but what appeared to be worse fires as well. wtc looked very nearly pristine in all pics and video ive seen of it right up to its collapse...other buildings near it burnt to a crisp and ended up burned out shells, but remained standing. wtc had virtually no 'devistating debris damage' visible, had a small amount of smoke coming from it, then suddenly fell straight down in the most textbook collapse possible. not to mention douchebag admitted to 'pulling it'. hell the newscasters even said on air, when it fell, that it was brought down. then later they said 'oh it fell on its own'.

i dont really buy 99% of these other 'theories' but everything about the wtc7 thing seems pretty damn strange to me.

ive posted the stuff before. but unlike some of the other buildings around, wtc 7 had a very unique design. the lot where wtc7 stood was not intended for a 50 storie building. the architects had to make many adjustments for the building to work. in its design if one piece of the structure is damaged the rest of the support beams go with it.
"pull it" is what fireman say when they need everyone to get out and to desert a fire.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2006, 08:19:02 PM »
ive posted the stuff before. but unlike some of the other buildings around, wtc 7 had a very unique design. the lot where wtc7 stood was not intended for a 50 storie building. the architects had to make many adjustments for the building to work. in its design if one piece of the structure is damaged the rest of the support beams go with it.
"pull it" is what fireman say when they need everyone to get out and to desert a fire.

this sounds very strange...whats different about that particular lot, when virtually every peice of manhattan has no problem supporting skyscrapers?
also its kinda weird to go ahead and design a building where 'if one peice of the structure is damaged the rest of the support beams go with it'....

id love to believe this, and will have no hesitation in doing so, if you can give a few more sound details.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2006, 08:31:17 PM »
thats another great mystery, the great pyramid and how exactly it was built! wondering about that has nothing to do with 'aliens'. it was built by people, some people, somehow.

Oh  I agree.  I've done research on the great pyramid before.

My point is that the logic i used to point to aliens is the same logic used in the 9/11 CT's to point to an inside job.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2006, 08:31:54 PM »
yes but 'debris' hit all the other buildings around it as well, including smaller, older buildings. the other buildings around it had not only lots of visible debris damage on the outside, but what appeared to be worse fires as well. wtc looked very nearly pristine in all pics and video ive seen of it right up to its collapse...other buildings near it burnt to a crisp and ended up burned out shells, but remained standing. wtc had virtually no 'devistating debris damage' visible, had a small amount of smoke coming from it, then suddenly fell straight down in the most textbook collapse possible. not to mention douchebag admitted to 'pulling it'. hell the newscasters even said on air, when it fell, that it was brought down. then later they said 'oh it fell on its own'.

i dont really buy 99% of these other 'theories' but everything about the wtc7 thing seems pretty damn strange to me.

The only pics available are of only 3 sides of WTC7.

As for the other buildings: 

Is it possible to damage that "building of blocks"  by throwing things at it and still it doesn't fall?  Yes.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2006, 08:53:45 PM »
It took one week to investigate JFK, Pearl harbor, and the Challenger.

Why did it take 441 days to start 911 investigation, and only after lal evidence had been melted?

Do you know the latest list of former Bush1, bush2 and Reagan cabinet members calling it an inside job?

Dude, if they'll kill americans, they'll put up websites with fake info, don't be gullibe. 

And we don't want a conviction - we want an investigation.  If it was not an inside job, then they have nothing to worry about.  But you must admit accoring to polls there are seriously tens of millions here - and HUNDREDS of millions worldwide, calling it an inside job. 

It took 7 months to convince me, and i've got an MBA, undergrad in history - i should have understood the economics and the precedent behind it.  I can imagine it might take other longer.  God bless them on their journey to finding the truth.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2006, 08:55:59 PM »
It took one week to investigate JFK, Pearl harbor, and the Challenger.

Why did it take 441 days to start 911 investigation, and only after lal evidence had been melted?

Do you know the latest list of former Bush1, bush2 and Reagan cabinet members calling it an inside job?

Dude, if they'll kill americans, they'll put up websites with fake info, don't be gullibe. 

And we don't want a conviction - we want an investigation.  If it was not an inside job, then they have nothing to worry about.  But you must admit accoring to polls there are seriously tens of millions here - and HUNDREDS of millions worldwide, calling it an inside job. 

It took 7 months to convince me, and i've got an MBA, undergrad in history - i should have understood the economics and the precedent behind it.  I can imagine it might take other longer.  God bless them on their journey to finding the truth.

you're simply the best, 240. it was worth waiting for you to post.  :-* :-* :-*

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2006, 08:59:32 PM »
Delusional, let's get a feel for your reality.

1) Did LBJ order the USS liberty to be sunk by the Israelis in 1967 in a failed bid to get us into war with Russia?

2) Did the US lie about the Gulf of Tonken to get us into Viet Nam?

3) Did the US DoD plan a 911-style attack in the early 60s in which fake terror attacks and fake plane crashes would occur to motivate the US pop to support war with Cuba?

4) Was a US president asked in 1964 to change JFK's autopsy to reflect a bullet hitting 2 inches lower than it actually had?

The answer to all four is a resounding YES, and these are all provable.  back then, skeptics were probably mocked by pompous, ignorant people who believed what the TV told them.  But history has shown the US govt lied in a historid manner (and illegal in some of them) in order to achieve military goals.

Can you at the very least admit these 4 events occurred so we can start on a level field of discussion in that YES, the US govt has used false attacks and coverups in the past causing loss of American lives?

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2006, 09:00:23 PM »
you're simply the best, 240. it was worth waiting for you to post.  :-* :-* :-*

happy to oblige, my friend.  Europe is starting their own 911 investigation, and the 911 truth movement is going to march to the white house lawn on 9/11/07.  It continues to grow.

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2006, 09:06:15 PM »
9/11 in australia means the 9th of november!  :o

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2006, 09:08:27 PM »
9/11 in australia means the 9th of november!  :o

what?!?!?  Once again, America is out of step with the rest of the world.

PS. How's the Australian 9/11 investigation coming?

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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2006, 09:14:13 PM »
we simply do not have enough info at this point to start drawing conclusions with 100% confidence on EXACTLY

who
how
why

Most can agree that 4 planes were "hijacked" and two apparently flew into the WTC 1 and 2 (those "events" can be acknowledged without having to believe they were the sole procuring cause of other events)

Another one supposedly hit the Pentagon but there are alot of anomolies in that narrative (if there weren't then we wouldn't even be having this discussion)

Another one supposedly "crashed" in PA

WTC7 is not related directly to any of those events but presents it own series of conundrums

Again - at this point not enough info for me to conclusively say who, how or why

Other than that I'm open to all points additional sources of info.  The more info the better.   

Would anyone in any field say their beliefs were immune to additonal info???




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Re: Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2006, 09:20:39 PM »
A second 9/11 investigation would be painful, but would unite our nation.