pit bulls are sick

[onlyme]

Dog pulling is big here too.  Just a week or so ago on Hawaiian Moving Company (tv show) they had a segment on dog pulling.  I used to know the guy who puts on those contests.  When I had my store I was selling K9RX and he would buy it for his dogs.  I think they said the dog that won this year pulled 6500 lbs.  unreal

[body88]

The problem with a lot of Johnson breeders is that they only breed for size, weight, and shortness of muzzle.  I would hate to have a 150 lb blob who couldn't move, couldn't take the Hawaii humidity because of a short muzzle, and was so undershot that he couldn't hold.  I have become a big fan of working Alan Scott/Billy Hines strain.  Hines, prior to his death, bred for performance, mainly hog hunting.  A lot of his dogs, (Von Sanctuarys Loki, his son Bossman, Bossman's daughter Kombat, Hillbilly, Countryboy, Snowbird) were functionally fantastic dogs that could take down a 400 lb Russian boar, and eat at the dinner table with toddlers.  I have two bitches, both descendants of Bossman/Snowflake outcrosses who are low slung, thick, agile, have a five inch muzzle with clean reverse scissors bites, but their heads are wide like a shoe box.  They can breathe, move freely, have endurance to do high intensity things for 2-3 hours (weight pulling and protection training) and are docile around friend's and family.  I also have a 7/8 Johnson Male out of Mark Landers breeding at MGK.  He is the only Johnson breeder putting out hard dogs that are physically functional and "look" the part.  (Sure Grip isn't selling dogs anymore, Kyle Symmes is into other breeds now like the rat terrier).  If I were to get another Scott Dog, Larry Koura puts out some fantastic dogs, as does Steve LeClerc.  They both have Masher/Margentina (Painter) line dogs that are fantastic. 

I think the AB is the perfect dog.  Like having a bigger pit, they don't come with the typical stereotypes that have given Pits a bad name.  When my insurance guy calls to renew my homeowners policy, he still asks if I have Bulldogs.  If I had a Rott or a Pit, my rates would have been higher.  So a few jackasses spoil it for everyone.  Like others here, I love all Molosser breeds.  I would love a good Tosa Inu, or a Boerbel, or a Presa Canario.  The problem is there aren't that many breeders with which I can trust.  The ABA has a great list of breeders who breed for functionality over form.  Function is always first, looks second. 

I agree with alot of your comments. I did not mention the painter lines as most on here would have no clue what I was talking about. I love my AB. I am a fan of the hybrid and Scott type more then the straight johnson. Not a big fan of the pushed in faces.

When I was looking into dogs I was looking at Dogos also. But like you said I could not find a breeder I trusted. ALot of fad breeders out there.

[big L dawg]

an animal is still and always will be just that, an animal.and no person can know what an animal will do or how they will react to a certain situation with a 100% accuracy.its true that the owners and proper training go along way in deciding how these animals will behave.a number of cases have been documented of dogs,(animals)(pitbulls),that were raised and trained properly and despite the owners best intentions still ended up attacking someone.the fact of the matter is that a pit bull can be a well behaved dog for years on end with no indication of a problem.and yet still a certain situation can arise that triggers these dogs to act out violently.there is a history of this occuring.thats why insurance is a must (and a law)with these animals.i understand the passion and love that these dog owners,and trainers can have for there pets.however dont let that blind you to the facts that any thing is possible when dealing with an animal.

[body88]

an animal is still and always will be just that, an animal.and no person can know what an animal will do or how they will react to a certain situation with a 100% accuracy.its true that the owners and proper training go along way in deciding how these animals will behave.a number of cases have been documented of dogs,(animals)(pitbulls),that were raised and trained properly and despite the owners best intentions still ended up attacking someone.the fact of the matter is that a pit bull can be a well behaved dog for years on end with no indication of a problem.and yet still a certain situation can arise that triggers these dogs to act out violently.there is a history of this occuring.thats why insurance is a must (and a law)with these animals.i understand the passion and love that these dog owners,and trainers can have for there pets.however dont let that blind you to the facts that any thing is possible when dealing with an animal.

This is true of every breed, A pitbull is no more prone to this then any other breed of dog. That "number" of documented cases you speak of is extremely low. I would like to see all these cases. I would also like to see proof that the owners properly socialized the animal. Had him medically checked out regularly and also exercised the animal regularly. Again there is no way to verify these peoples credibility so you are going on hersay. Which most critics of pits do anyway.

Some dogs can have mental issues which cause them to tuen on people. That is not exclusive to pitbulls. They are infact more stable then most dogs. Btw if a dog turns on its owner there is usually a factor that occurs it to happen. Hurt the dog by accident. Play rough. Abuse it. Dogs raised properly so not just turn for fun. That is extremley rare.

[carvedoutofwood]

OK, but seriously im moving out within the next few months, Im a young guy just outta school, IM 100% sure that im getting a dog(puppy) and an APBT is my first choice, gowing up my rents never let me have any animals so i have a lot of care to give + my job will allow me to spend almost all day with the dog if need be (around the gym ofcourse)... its athleticism + medium to small size is want really draws me to this breed

those long distance frisbee throws always interested me, they seem like a ton of fun and great excersise for the animal... would an APBT be a good dog for this?

my main question is, how credible are the majority of breeders, should i instead look twards a kennel?... whats the average cost of a puppy APBT... esentially what is some general info B4 the next step

[body88]

An American pitbull terrier, American bulldog , German Shepard, Rottweiler or any other dominant breed dog is alot to handle. They are not considered the right fit for novice dog owners. You sound like you have alot of time to dedicate to socialization. But be aware before you get the cute little bully pup that they are ALOT of work. I am not talking black lab pee on your carpet work. I am talking dominant dog who will take control of you if you give him the chance. When I say take control I mean is smart enough to know how to get what he wants when he wants from you. You need to establish you are the leader of the pack and or alpha male when he is a little guy so he will listen to you. If  you do not he will grow to assume he is the leader and do as he pleases.That is why pits have a bad name. usually retards with no clue how to raise a dominant breed pup own them. Do not be a retard You have to socialize him with other pups from a young age ( you will get him from the breeder at about 12-16 weeks) so he does not become prone to animal aggression. Pits can be animal aggressive. Trust me you dont want to have to break a pit fighting another pup. Unless it is another pit the other dog will most definatly lose. The biggest and most important thing is to socialize him with other dogs and animals. The second really important i task is to socialize him with people so he becomes comfortable with strangers and also people petting him, getting close to his face etc etc. Another huge thing is bordem. Most all problems arise from one of the three things I listed, You said you have alot of free time so you seem to be aware of this. Working breeds need a ton of exercise. Pits need a ton. Rain ,shine or snow. A bored dominant breed is a problem. They get desructive and jumpy. especially rotts!

If you have enough time to dedicate to the animal then there are a few things you can do to ensure you get a good pup. First off join a popular message forum for whatever breed you like. Research who is a good breeder and who is a scammer. get into the world of pitbulls. Just like there is a BB community there is also a apbt community. Research for a long time. You are going to have to wait anyway. Good breeders have waiting lists. Look up the faults of the particular breed.and if you can when you look at your pup check him out for any noticeable faults. That may not be an option as you may not have a good breeder near you. But I would try to get him or her from a breeder where you can actually look over the pup. If not just research and make certain you are buying from a reputable breeder. Especially with the pits there are alot of scammers out there since they are so popular with rappers and celebs. Pit puppies range from 500 to well over 1000. Blue pits are the most expensive. They are the perfect dogs for things like playing frisbie. They are genetics freaks. Athletic ability you have to see to believe. Same thing with American bulldogs.


If you have never owned a dog like this before be aware what you are getting. Do not buy him just because you think it is cool right now. They are a ton f work and they reward you with love and loyalty like you have never seen before. But please do not get one if you are not going to give 100 percent. He will just end up in a cage waiting to be put to sleep. Like the hundreds of other pits people buy then abandon.


A good choice for a starter dog is a miniature bull terrier. Just like its full size dad  but not as much work. If you have the time to put into the pit then get him, You will not be sorry. Just make sure you do your research and raise him right!


If you need anything pm me. Good luck!

[onlyme]

I got this dog from the SPCA when my daughters took me there just to look.  It is part PB I think.  It was hypr as all hell and fast as anything.  It could jump so high.  I think it was a PB/Greyhound mix or something like that

[body88]

Wood, this video will show you the ability of bully dogs. There is speculation to the breed of this pup. It is believed to be a smaller scott strain American bull.  Some scotss only are about 75 lbs. But some people said it was a pit. Either way get ready to see the sickest shit ever.

There is nothing that can come close. Nothing


http://www.break.com/index/superdawg.html

[americanbulldog]

Wood, this video will show you the ability of bully dogs. There is speculation to the breed of this pup. It is believed to be a smaller scott strain American bull.  Some scotss only are about 75 lbs. But some people said it was a pit. Either way get ready to see the sickest shit ever.

There is nothing that can come close. Nothing


http://www.break.com/index/superdawg.html

Working strain Scott dogs can look similar to hybirds.  I like the longer working muzzles for just that purpose.  If my dogs can't bite and hold, they are worthless.  Pig hunting, or protection work, they need to bite and hold.  They also need to be agile, fast, flexible to be effective pig hunters.  The hybrids and performance johnson strain are better at man work because of the strength factor, but don't last as long.  Not to mention short muzzled dogs can be thrown.  That is why I keep an MGK male, so if I do want to introduce size, structure, I can.  Not to mention there is a demand for large Johnson dogs, so he keeps my hobby money well stocked.  MGK dogs hold the record for the 100, 120 lb IWPA classes.  They are the best Johnson dogs out since Symmes got out of the business. 

[body88]

Working strain Scott dogs can look similar to hybirds.  I like the longer working muzzles for just that purpose.  If my dogs can't bite and hold, they are worthless.  Pig hunting, or protection work, they need to bite and hold.  They also need to be agile, fast, flexible to be effective pig hunters.  The hybrids and performance johnson strain are better at man work because of the strength factor, but don't last as long.  Not to mention short muzzled dogs can be thrown.  That is why I keep an MGK male, so if I do want to introduce size, structure, I can.  Not to mention there is a demand for large Johnson dogs, so he keeps my hobby money well stocked.  MGK dogs hold the record for the 100, 120 lb IWPA classes.  They are the best Johnson dogs out since Symmes got out of the business. 

 cool, pm me if you ever have any cool bulldog stories. DO you have any pics of former litters? Or do u just provide stud service?

[americanbulldog]

 cool, pm me if you ever have any cool bulldog stories. DO you have any pics of former litters? Or do u just provide stud service?

This will sound archaic, but I don't know how to post pics.  I can email them, so I will PM you, get your email then send them to you directly.  I have personally met Mark Landers, Kyle Symmes, Matt Boyd and Billy Hines.  All are very geniune.  Some are eccentric (As is old man John D from what I have heard).  The nicest dogs out are had by Gale Raponi of Tuff E Nuff kennels out of NY.  He has working strain Hines dogs that are the super athletes of the canine world.  Big, strong, sturdy, can withstand extremes of weather and dead game.  (also long lived).  Here is a link to Aspenrare kennels which shows the lines of Hines product.  http://www.aspenrare.com/BillHines.html

http://hometown.aol.com/tufnufkennels/page11.html.  This dog Panda is what I consider to be an "American Bulldog."  Blocky, stocky and cocky.  I have seen him perform protection work and it is a sight to see.  Cross strirated glutes, legs in the dead of winter at 20 below.  What an ANIMAL.

[carvedoutofwood]

Another huge thing is bordem. Most all problems arise from one of the three things I listed, You said you have alot of free time so you seem to be aware of this. Working breeds need a ton of exercise. Pits need a ton. Rain ,shine or snow. A bored dominant breed is a problem. They get desructive and jumpy. especially rotts!

If you have enough time to dedicate to the animal then there are a few things you can do to ensure you get a good pup. First off join a popular message forum for whatever breed you like. Research who is a good breeder and who is a scammer. get into the world of pitbulls.

although  have some free time, its far from a lot... however hopefully movingout will allow me some more, by cutting down my commute time... regardless, im genuinly interested, and committed to learning a lot more about these breeds... the move for me wont happen till June, plus theres no rush, so ive got ample time to research...
Q: do u know of any forums that i could troll or jump onto that would give me good info on breeders that might be in my area.... (NY)...

Q: you did say that looking the dog over B4 a purchase would be the best way to ensure a + result, 2nd would be buying the animal through a good breeder... however i know of a few credible Kennels in my area that allow you to review the dog when it arives B4 purchase... how do those usually match up, especially since im fairly confident they have many of the dogs shipped to them?


i would PM you these Qs if u like, but i fig bumpping this thread is a good thing?

[americanbulldog]

Gale Raponi is in New York.  He has awesome Bulldogs.  I would recommend you vist, check out the parents.  Most good breeders will x ray their hips.  I will look for my temperment testing procedures I got somewhere as well.  You also need to know what to look for as far as stifles, feet, jaw, eyes and rib cage. 

[body88]

American gave some really good advice. Research is the biggest thing when picking a puppy. You need to learn the faults and desirable attributes of the breed. So when you pick your pup you can make the right choice. The hip guarantees are very important. This breed can be prone to hip dysplasia. Most reputable breeders will provide a "full hip guarantee" make sure the breeder is registered and it is always a good sign if the breeders animals compete in agility competitions. Whatever competition the particular breed mainly partakes in. When I bought my guy I found out my breeder was well known in the protection/agility world of American Bulldogs. Which was a good sign she had good lines due to her animals doing well.

You also want to make sure your breeder puts out animals with a good temperament. In an ideal situation you want to be able to pick your pup in person. You can then use your knowledge to make sure you are getting a healthy ,good example of the breed. If this is not an option go through a breeder you have deemed reputable. Watch for people who will sell you puppies with no wait at all. Good breeders ALWAYS have a waiting list. Unless you know a person who can stud for your female.

www.dogresources.com Ton of info on all breeds.

[Parker]

I hate backyard breeders.  . Got a lot them in Baltimore. One guy I used to work with knew someone who was a backyard breeder of Pits. No Hip gaurantees or ideal temperments here.

Sometimes you see Pits running the streets of Baltimore in 2's or fours, just roaming.

Body, it was interesting what you said about Pits being dominant of their owners. I remember this guy had one and he brought it on campus, he was walking the bridge where there are a lot of people, the pit was pulling him, hard...Plus it was very crowded, someone could have stepped on the dog's toes and he would have mauled the person. it looked to be about 90 pounds, the guy was about 5'8 and 150 on a good day. He was a "wannabe"

Same guy did it again, and was escorted by the police off campus. The dog was pulling him again, the  dog was pulling so hard it was leaning to the side. No control, and that dog without control would be  dangerous. 

[big L dawg]

This is true of every breed, A pitbull is no more prone to this then any other breed of dog. That "number" of documented cases you speak of is extremely low. I would like to see all these cases. I would also like to see proof that the owners properly socialized the animal. Had him medically checked out regularly and also exercised the animal regularly. Again there is no way to verify these peoples credibility so you are going on hersay. Which most critics of pits do anyway.

Some dogs can have mental issues which cause them to tuen on people. That is not exclusive to pitbulls. They are infact more stable then most dogs. Btw if a dog turns on its owner there is usually a factor that occurs it to happen. Hurt the dog by accident. Play rough. Abuse it. Dogs raised properly so not just turn for fun. That is extremley rare.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I agree that all breeds are capable of this that was my point.but just as you point out latter in this thread is that any other dog "would definatly lose"in your own words,aginst a pitbull.so there you have it a toy poodle that goes berzeerk and attacks will not have the same effect as a pit thats attacks.it doesnt make one dog any worse than the other,but the results with one are far worse.

[Parker]

This is true of every breed, A pitbull is no more prone to this then any other breed of dog. That "number" of documented cases you speak of is extremely low. I would like to see all these cases. I would also like to see proof that the owners properly socialized the animal. Had him medically checked out regularly and also exercised the animal regularly. Again there is no way to verify these peoples credibility so you are going on hersay. Which most critics of pits do anyway.

Some dogs can have mental issues which cause them to tuen on people. That is not exclusive to pitbulls. They are infact more stable then most dogs. Btw if a dog turns on its owner there is usually a factor that occurs it to happen. Hurt the dog by accident. Play rough. Abuse it. Dogs raised properly so not just turn for fun. That is extremley rare.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I agree that all breeds are capable of this that was my point.but just as you point out latter in this thread is that any other dog "would definatly lose"in your own words,aginst a pitbull.so there you have it a toy poodle that goes berzeerk and attacks will not have the same effect as a pit thats attacks.it doesnt make one dog any worse than the other,but the results with one are far worse.

Cocker Spaniels are known for being crazy, my cousin had one and it would always ram its head into the wall, chasing lights.  I think Cocker Spaniels has the record of biting people the most

[body88]

This is true of every breed, A pitbull is no more prone to this then any other breed of dog. That "number" of documented cases you speak of is extremely low. I would like to see all these cases. I would also like to see proof that the owners properly socialized the animal. Had him medically checked out regularly and also exercised the animal regularly. Again there is no way to verify these peoples credibility so you are going on hersay. Which most critics of pits do anyway.

Some dogs can have mental issues which cause them to tuen on people. That is not exclusive to pitbulls. They are infact more stable then most dogs. Btw if a dog turns on its owner there is usually a factor that occurs it to happen. Hurt the dog by accident. Play rough. Abuse it. Dogs raised properly so not just turn for fun. That is extremley rare.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I agree that all breeds are capable of this that was my point.but just as you point out latter in this thread is that any other dog "would defiantly lose"in your own words,against a pitbull.so there you have it a toy poodle that goes berzeerk and attacks will not have the same effect as a pit thats attacks.it doesnt make one dog any worse than the other,but the results with one are far worse.

the most aggressive and fight happy dogs are usually small toys. Every time you go to the dog Park what breeds are causing trouble? Small toys that people do not train because they are "cute". A real, full grown pit weighs between 35 and 60 lbs. Your statement is pointless. A dog should not be fighting. If it is  the owners are to blame. Proper socialization and upbring remedy this. I had two pits. They never got into a single fight. That is because they where socialized since puppyhood. I made the statement about it being "game over" for another breed if they fight a pit because it is true. If the pit was to start fighting with another dog in the end the other breed would most def lose.That is not because pitbulls are more dangerous or unstable. That is because they are more agile, athletic extremely strong and never quit. Basically just a better athlete with 100000 times the heart.Again that should NEVER happen if there is a responsible owner present. Pits do not go out looking for fights if they are raised correctly. You are implying that since they can do damage they are more dangerous.A 200 lb fila can do more damage to a human then a pitbull can. Well seems to me any dog over 60 lbs would fall under the statement you made.Most the giant breeds could do just as much damage to a smaller animal. If we go by your logic all humans bigger than the average of 5'10 160 lbs should be deemed dangerous. They have more capability to harm people if they choose to get into a fight. Same goes for people with the fastest reflexes and best genetics of the race. More likely to be able to cause harm if they get angry then a smaller less coordinated person.

If you take two dogs. A male black lab and a male pitbull terrier. You do not raise either one of them the correct way. You know which is more dangerous? Neither. Both are equally as dangerous. The only reason you people have the opinion about pits you do is what you see in the news occasionally and urban legands. Pitbulls are owned by crack dealers and thugs now. Who do not raise them correctly and train them into weapons. Same thing happened with Rotts before pits. It will be another breed after this.


If I ever met you I bet I could change your perception on pitbulls in 5 min. You may never like the bred or own on for yourself. But after seeing the pup smile and lick your face happy as hell you would change your opinion. I am not against people not wanting to own pits. Or calling for owners to be responsible. I agree with those statements. Owning a pitbull or any other dog with the capability to harm someone or other animals is a big responsibility. I just get fired up when people call for the whole breed to be killed. It is not the animals fault. People take them and turn them into weapons, force them to fight, abuse them, abandon them. A pitbull is not naturally aggressive to humans. I have stated it over and over. When the pit was used to fight they where bred specifically to be ultra tolerant to people as they handlers did not want to be mauled every time they broke the dogs. There needs to be tougher laws against fighters and irresponsible owners, Only then will we all be happy. There are million of peacefull pitbull owners. Who's dogs are perfectly normal.

[brooklyn123]

I breed Presa Canrios and love them. they are true protectors and very loyal to everyone in the house. I have raised all my kids with them and have never had even one problem. The breeder or owner determines a lot of the temperment and the whole dog attitude. Ours are handled and fed by kids on a regular basis. We temperment test our dogs and socialize them well.  Here is my website. Email if you have any questions. www.theoriginalshogunkennels.com

[body88]

Where did you get the studs? Pm me, I might be interested in checkout out a female. I love the picture of this male I saw awhile back. They are cool pups.

[carvedoutofwood]

If you take two dogs. A male black lab and a male pitbull terrier. You do not raise either one of them the correct way. You know which is more dangerous? Neither. Both are equally as dangerous. The only reason you people have the opinion about pits you do is what you see in the news occasionally and urban legands. Pitbulls are owned by crack dealers and thugs now. Who do not raise them correctly and train them into weapons. Same thing happened with Rotts before pits. It will be another breed after this.

just to play devils advocate here... L dawg does make a good point... b/c you do kinda contradict yourself body.... if a pit bull is sooooo much stronger, more agile, and has greater "heart" then any other dog... obviously and attack by one is going to be more brutal... ie.a worse attack.... im not saying they attack more often then other dogs, and neither is L dawg but when they do attack, even if it is less often then other dogs, THAT attack is almost always a worse one

[americanbulldog]

just to play devils advocate here... L dawg does make a good point... b/c you do kinda contradict yourself body.... if a pit bull is sooooo much stronger, more agile, and has greater "heart" then any other dog... obviously and attack by one is going to be more brutal... ie.a worse attack.... im not saying they attack more often then other dogs, and neither is L dawg but when they do attack, even if it is less often then other dogs, THAT attack is almost always a worse one

Molosser breeds do have the ability to inflict more damage than other breeds, but like as previously mentioned by body, they don't deserve the reputation they get.  If we use L's logic, we should take SUVs and heavy duty pickups off of the road because of the damage and potential bodily harm they may cause on subcompacts.  Heck, we might as well disarm all armed citizens because potentially they may shoot someone in self defense and end up hurting or "Gasp" kill someone while defending themselves from bodily harm. 

[body88]

just to play devils advocate here... L dawg does make a good point... b/c you do kinda contradict yourself body.... if a pit bull is sooooo much stronger, more agile, and has greater "heart" then any other dog... obviously and attack by one is going to be more brutal... ie.a worse attack.... im not saying they attack more often then other dogs, and neither is L dawg but when they do attack, even if it is less often then other dogs, THAT attack is almost always a worse one

Read the post more carfully. I do cover this. I cover it several times actually. The part about being attacked by a full grown 200 lb fila mastiff. Then I talk about how a smaller dog being attacked by any of the giant breeds ( filas,Danes,Mastiffs) would be just as devastating as being attacked by a pitbull.

[body88]

Molosser breeds do have the ability to inflict more damage than other breeds, but like as previously mentioned by body, they don't deserve the reputation they get.  If we use L's logic, we should take SUVs and heavy duty pickups off of the road because of the damage and potential bodily harm they may cause on subcompacts.  Heck, we might as well disarm all armed citizens because potentially they may shoot someone in self defense and end up hurting or "Gasp" kill someone while defending themselves from bodily harm. 

Exactly. I make this point in my post under different context( I use a human analogy). Carved must not have read the whole thing.

[big L dawg]

my point is this.you basiclly are claiming that if properly socialized,properly trained,and properly takin care of,there is no chance of a pitbull attack.im saying i dont care how great you are at training,and how good of a track record of good behaviour a pit has,you cant say with 100% certainty how the animal will react to ever situation that arises.you can lower the risk but never can you do anything to garrantee with100% assurance that you know what the dog(anydog)will handle every situation over the course of the animals life.