GH timing at last

[Peptide Wizard]

Once again... AJ, we should think of making a sticky out of this.

Here is it:

Twice a day work best. Right after breakfast and right after the second post training meal (roughly 2h after training). Allways avoid before going to bed and right after training; these are the highest andogenous release period of the body and taking exogenous will only inhibit the body from releasing. The negative feedback loop for hgh is very short; hence exogenous will only inhibit for a couple of hours.

GH on an empty stomach is wasting precious active half life time. When on an empty stomach, level of somatosatin are extremely high and will bind with the GH molecule rendering it inactive.

Supplementation of L-Tryptophan can be really effective to help lower somatostatin.  It is used by the body to deactivate somatostatin (the body actually uses L-T to synthesize D-Tryptophan which binds to somatostatin)

or you can get a hand on this drug 
http://redpoll.pharmacy.ualberta.ca/drugbank/cgi-bin/getCard.cgi?CARD=EXPT01290.txt

[Van_Bilderass]

Allways avoid before going to bed and right after training; these are the highest andogenous release period of the body and taking exogenous will only inhibit the body from releasing. The negative feedback loop for hgh is very short; hence exogenous will only inhibit for a couple of hours.

This is absolutely false. Suppression lasts roughly 24 hours after a shot, when used in any relevant dosage. Maybe if you did 1iu or less in the morning you'd be able to avoid suppression, but who does that?

It's unbelievable how much misinformation there is about GH, especially considering the data that is easily available. It's laughable how suppression of endogenous GH is supposed to last only a couple of hours when the plasma levels don't even peak until after 3-4 hours after a SQ or IM shot.

I know you're going to contest this, but I challenge you to provide data that supports your position. If anyone is REALLY interested I can post studies to support mine.

[DIVISION]

This is absolutely false. Suppression lasts roughly 24 hours after a shot, when used in any relevant dosage. Maybe if you did 1iu or less in the morning you'd be able to avoid suppression, but who does that?

It's unbelievable how much misinformation there is about GH, especially considering the data that is easily available. It's laughable how suppression of endogenous GH is supposed to last only a couple of hours when the plasma levels don't even peak until after 3-4 hours after a SQ or IM shot.

I know you're going to contest this, but I challenge you to provide data that supports your position. If anyone is REALLY interested I can post studies to support mine.

I am not a GH guy so I have no dog in this fight.....

However, it appears that Bildernugga has challenged Peptide to a duel.




DIV

[bigjohn_bluesfan]

I am not a GH guy so I have no dog in this fight.....

However, it appears that Bildernugga has challenged Peptide to a duel.




DIV

lmao

[Van_Bilderass]

Never said there was zero mid-term suppression. As you said exogenous active half life is 3-4 hours, once it has peaked inhibition is not total and the deep sleep release pulse still occurs and so does the post workout one. Why would you override them?

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/138/12/5316

Check Author L. Rea's Building The Perfect Beast as well... Scott claims the same... 

Otherwise, what would you recommend? 

Okay. So lets assume you might be able to get a slight endo release still. Well, in my opinion it just does not matter in the least, it's not something I would worry about since compared to the 4iu or whatever you shot that day the nightly burst is miniscule (GH actually peaks throughout the day, with the nightly pulse being slightly bigger than the other pulses). Let's also remember that the IGF levels build up over several days when exo GH is administered every day, which is why I see GH more of a "long term" hormone, compared to a more acute hormone like Humalog insulin for example. I wouldn't worry that much about timing or trying to take it exactly 126.5 minutes after your workout or whatever LOL.

Scott Jensen is no authority IMO. He has made a huge number of ridiculous claims and likes to write out overcomplicated cycles with compounds nearly no one can source. Just because his cycles look so complex doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about or that they make sense .

[Rimbaud]

I am not a GH guy so I have no dog in this fight.....

However, it appears that Bildernugga has challenged Peptide to a duel.




DIV

Fight! Fight!

[bigjohn_bluesfan]

Keep the androgen to 28 days cycle, then jump to "anabolic" compounds with no HTPA effect such as insulin/GH combo and also layer a phase where you suppress the cortisol/estrogen elevated from the androgen (at the same time recovering the HTPA)

Take a look:

translate to english

[DIVISION]

Keep the androgen to 28 days cycle, then jump to "anabolic" compounds with no HTPA effect such as insulin/GH combo and also layer a phase where you suppress the cortisol/estrogen elevated from the androgen (at the same time recovering the HTPA)

translate to english

Basically, he's saying that the max androgen cycle, due to it's short duration will shock the body in to maximum growth without the letdown of longterm HPTA suppression whereupon switching to compounds that don't directly affect the hormonal feedback loop will keep the anabolic growth phase on an uptick...

The only problem I have with this theory is that the HPTA will still find a way to regulate and there will be some degree of anabolic lag and subsequent loss of gains between cessation of AAS and introduction of GH/Insulin.

Cortisol will rebound as will Estrogen and there is no way around that.

It's the same reason I don't believe bridging works as some would like to believe.

You can't cheat your body forever...



DIV

[Van_Bilderass]

Keep the androgen to 28 days cycle, then jump to "anabolic" compounds with no HTPA effect such as insulin/GH combo and also layer a phase where you suppress the cortisol/estrogen elevated from the androgen (at the same time recovering the HTPA)

Take a look:

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about, drugs utilized includes Teslac, Cyclofenil and Theramex. Please, where can you get Theramex nowadays and why does it have to be Theramex and not just any Test Enanthate? I don't know if Teslac is even made anymore, hard to source in any case. And why use Test E for 10 days only? Or Deca for 5 days! Doesn't make much sense IMO. These drugs take quite a bit longer for them to start producing good results. Then he has GH for 3 days on, 4 days off. I'm sure he has some exotic explanation for this protocol.

A good old 8-16 week cycle with stable levels will produce much better results for most IMO.

BTW, anyone see pics of this dude? I saw a pic in Max Muscle mag and he was all Syntholed out. Not much real muscle.

[DIVISION]

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about, drugs utilized includes Teslac, Cyclofenil and Theramex. Please, where can you get Theramex nowadays and why does it have to be Theramex and not just any Test Enanthate? I don't know if Teslac is even made anymore, hard to source in any case. And why use Test E for 10 days only? Or Deca for 5 days! Doesn't make much sense IMO. These drugs take quite a bit longer for them to start producing good results. Then he has GH for 3 days on, 4 days off. I'm sure he has some exotic explanation for this protocol.

A good old 8-16 week cycle with stable levels will produce much better results for most IMO.

I concur with Bildernuggs....

That cycle looks like a sure way to fucked up hormonal levels and sides.

It's not something I'm tempted to run.



DIV

[DIVISION]

Not true.

I've done the blood test in the lab (the joy of easyaccess ).

6 weeks of test blend (enanthate week1-4 + prop 1-6), then estrogen/cortisol control week 7-12.

Week 7, estradiol levels were sligtly bellow normal, same result on week 13. Couldn't measure circulating cortisol accurately but no catabolism, and almost no weight loss.

Aromasin was used week 1-10,
HCG week 7-10 (500IU 4xday, week 1, after, 500IU e3d)
Albuterol week 7,8, 10,11 (cortisol supression)

I gained 15lb, from 225 to 240 on week6. By week 12 I was down to 235 with BF of about 10-11%, didn't measure initial BF but was higher by at least a couple of points. Then Ready for 12 weeks contest prep.

It's not that I don't believe you, but I know my body and I just can't see making any permanent gains off this type of protocol, given my experience with longer cycles.

I think the hormonal fluctuations alone would wreak havoc on the system.

If you couldn't measure cortisol levels, how do you know there was no catabolism?

Weight loss doesn't mean much, it's the body composition that matters.

That's true. But with ALR's protocols, by day 60, you've recovered and ready to get back into max androgen phase. This way you can easily cycle 6 months out of the year (in a row) with low risk of highs and crashes...

I've read Author's book and even e-mailed him.  He's an interesting cat, but I'm not sold on his theories.  They make work for some genetic types, but they won't work on everyone, at least not how they are designed to.

Author L. Rea reminds me of Dan Duchaine....

An innovative mind, but very risky and avant garde when it comes to AAS and other drugs.

Dan was right about alot of things, but also wrong about a great many things as well.....



DIV

[Peptide Wizard]

A good old 16 week cycle with stable levels will produce much better results for most IMO.

I would like to see your enzymes & especially PSA level after 16 weeks of androgens. You hit diminishing effects after 4 weeks. Why fight it with higher dosages?

Think outside the boax. That's how I do it with my athletes and they show results.

[local hero]

after your 4 weeks on, how long would u stay off before starting again?

[Peptide Wizard]

after your 4 weeks on, how long would u stay off before starting again?

4weeks.

[hooker]

If I can throw my own thoughts into when the best time to shoot GH is, here they are:

1. Most likely it doesn't matter...I don't think if we looked at 100 people doing GH and some were doing it PWO, others at night, and others in the A.M., and still others 2x a day, we wouldn't see drastically different results. Perhaps not even noticably different results.

2. Maybe PWO is best because after a training session, IGF binding proteins are very low, and therefore when the GH causes an IGF response, the lowered binding protein level will let us have more IGF bioavailable.

3. Maybe A.M. dosing is best because you will likely still get your nighttime GH release if you shoot it early enough in the A.M.

4. Most likely it doesn't matter.

[I ETA PI]

If I can throw my own thoughts into when the best time to shoot GH is, here they are:

4. Most likely it doesn't matter.

Ding, ding, ding...


Attempting to maximize your GH output by avoiding your natural production times is pointless. 
The .5ius worth of GH that your body produces is pointless to care about if you're taking enough GH to notice any effects.

[trab]

Ding, ding, ding...


Attempting to maximize your GH output by avoiding your natural production times is pointless. 
The .5ius worth of GH that your body produces is pointless to care about if you're taking enough GH to notice any effects.

That makes sense to me. What you consider enough to be worthwile? How you like to break it up?
Is there anything to help the Hurtin' knuckles? I mean BAD! I was trying to do 8iu x day for 4 day burst (2iu/ x 4 shots/day), but no way! 2nd day had to drop to 6, then 3 next. Serious knuckle discomfort.