Prison is too damn hard...

[Hedgehog]

How is the kid been rehabilitated? He kills a homeless man that he outweighs by two hundred pounds, for fun. He goes to prison and thinks it's too hard.
Sending him to the big house for 22 years, maybe in the course of those 22 years he'll learn to be responsible for his actions, learn to deal with prison being "too hard."
If you're not ready to do the time, easy time or not, then don't do the fucking crime. Simple really.
He's obviously not ready to come out, being underage for a prison or not. And you can see where he got it from.....his mom can't seem to deal with issues herself.

What we think of him or his actions is irrelevant.

If it's possible to get him back into society as a decent citizen in 4 years, then that is what should be done.

Because the earnings of it is tremendous. As a criminal, the society has no use for this person. NO USE. That is the simple fact, and that's why every effort should be made to turn him or her into a straight person (no offence, Bay).

There's an argument that short sentencing will lure other people into commit crimes, but there is no proof of that. Countries with long sentencing usually have higher crime rates than countries with more moderate sentencing. It's inconclusive, at the least.




YIP
Zack

[Nordic Superman]

That's not communistic BTW. Communists believes that there should be no government and no nations, and we are all going to live in small villages with little or no individual properties. Most will be shared.

My view on this kid in question is strictly utilitarianism, which is classic, old school liberalism, Mills and Bentham.

YIP
Zack

That's not how it works in real life communist countries tho... you become a DRONE.

Explain exactly how this prick would be punished with your methods?

[240 is Back]

The argument is, what is the purpose of prison?

To rehabilitate?

Or to provide a collective deterrent to future potential criminals?
Or punish?
Or something else?

If the job is to rehab, 22 years is too much.  if the job is to punish, and the victim is my fmaily member, 22 years sure as hell isn't enough.  If the job is to deter other board 9th graders from killing on a whim, 22 years might be just right. I dunno.

[Hedgehog]

That's not how it works in real life communist countries tho... you become a DRONE.

Explain exactly how this prick would be punished with your methods?

I don't know. I don't feel I know the best way on how a 15 year old criminal like this can be converted into a good citizen.

I believe that the goal should be getting him back into the society ASAP, however. Not punishment.

If the expertise feels that punishment is needed to get him back to the society, well.. But like I stated, I don't feel qualified.


Totally agree with your assessment on real life communism BTW.

[YoungBlood]

What we think of him or his actions is irrelevant.

If it's possible to get him back into society as a decent citizen in 4 years, then that is what should be done.

What we think of his actions? WTF does that mean? Please explain this one.

Your stance on this subject doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Break it down here; Who? Someone that did not do anything to him. What? He killed another person, a homeless man. Why? Because he he was BORED. When? When his friends told him that they were beating up on the guy in the previous days...I guess that makes it okay then. How? Sat on his chest knowing full well he outweighed the guy...nonetheless by 200 pounds!

Do you see any reason why this kid should be given another chance in society before his sentence is carried out in full? Explain as to why you think this is just.
The kid himself pleaded GUILTY, knowing he committed the crime, and got a lighter sentence due to pleading guilty.

I really don't see your point Hedge....

[Hedgehog]

The argument is, what is the purpose of prison?

To rehabilitate?

Or to provide a collective deterrent to future potential criminals?
Or punish?
Or something else?

If the job is to rehab, 22 years is too much.  if the job is to punish, and the victim is my fmaily member, 22 years sure as hell isn't enough.  If the job is to deter other board 9th graders from killing on a whim, 22 years might be just right. I dunno.

I always believe that victims and relatives of victims have every right to seek revenge and ask for hard penalties.

It's where the government will have to step in and make it possible to carry on through the trauma.

If my family was slained, would I want the killer to be put on death row? I fully expect myself to wish that, and I don't think I should feel guilty for feeling that way either. In that case, it would not be upon me to be rational, since I am the one who is traumatized.

The rational thing for the society to do, would be to "put me back into productive capacity" ASAP.



YIP
Zack

[Nordic Superman]

I must admit, I too don't think you're making much sense here Hedge

What planet are you living on seriously?

[Hedgehog]

What we think of his actions? WTF does that mean? Please explain this one.

Your stance on this subject doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Break it down here; Who? Someone that did not do anything to him. What? He killed another person, a homeless man. Why? Because he he was BORED. When? When his friends told him that they were beating up on the guy in the previous days...I guess that makes it okay then. How? Sat on his chest knowing full well he outweighed the guy...nonetheless by 200 pounds!

Do you see any reason why this kid should be given another chance in society before his sentence is carried out in full? Explain as to why you think this is just.
The kid himself pleaded GUILTY, knowing he committed the crime, and got a lighter sentence due to pleading guilty.

I really don't see your point Hedge....

Ok.

The kid commits a horrible crime.

He's locked up for 22 years.

If, through using lots of therapy and medication (chemical castration? ) and whatnot, experts are able to change this kid into a decent young man, why not put him back into society?

YIP
Zack

[Hedgehog]

I must admit, I too don't think you're making much sense here Hedge

What planet are you living on seriously?

What is the purpose of punishing him?

YIP
Zack

[Nordic Superman]

What is the purpose of punishing him?

YIP
Zack

It's simply the best option and gives deserved pleasure to those he hurt.

Ok.

The kid commits a horrible crime.

He's locked up for 22 years.

If, through using lots of therapy and medication (chemical castration? ) and whatnot, experts are able to change this kid into a decent young man, why not put him back into society?

YIP
Zack

I certainly believe he shouldn't be allowed to procreate. Castrate the son of a bitch I say.

What about you Zackarius? Do you think he should be allowed to raise children when his time is up?

[The Squadfather]

What is the purpose of punishing him?

YIP
Zack

it has nothing to do with emotion Hedge, people who commit violent crimes need to be locked away from society because they are no better than animals, civilized society needs to be protected from violent criminals, plain and simple.

[YoungBlood]

Ok.

The kid commits a horrible crime.

He's locked up for 22 years.

If, through using lots of therapy and medication (chemical castration? ) and whatnot, experts are able to change this kid into a decent young man, why not put him back into society?

YIP
Zack

Prison is supposed to be a way to deter people from committing the crime in the first place. Over time, it's almost because a way to get through life.
Here is this 15 year old kid, knows nothing but school, eating video games, and he kills someone. He's going to the big house in order to teach him the correct way to live. If he even serves his 22 years (when is he up for parole, probably eligible in a couple of years compared to his sentence of 22), and he is rehabilitated, sure. Put him back in society. That's IF he is rehabilitated.
But do you think killing another person at 15 years old, being a fat slob (and yes this does have relevance) and being obese at such a young age, pleading guilty to murder and subsequently asking to be let out after EIGHT MONTHS... do you feel this shows somebody even having potential let alone the ability to function normally in society?

[YoungBlood]

So should we put Charles Manson back in society?  I'm pretty sure he killed for fun...  .

I'm pretty sure Manson never even killed. He just instructed his followers to kill.

[Hedgehog]

It's simply the best option and gives deserved pleasure to those he hurt.

I certainly believe he shouldn't be allowed to procreate. Castrate the son of a bitch I say.

What about you Zackarius? Do you think he should be allowed to raise children when his time is up?

The second argument I can definitely understand, about not being allowed to breed, although I don't necessarily agree with it.

The first one makes no sense, it's the reason of a barbaric civilization, much like the ones that Islamists are in favor of.

YIP
Zack

[Hedgehog]

it has nothing to do with emotion Hedge, people who commit violent crimes need to be locked away from society because they are no better than animals, civilized society needs to be protected from violent criminals, plain and simple.

Some people are like that, definitely. And they need to be locked away forever.

I have no idea if this kid is that way.

I do know that our society can't afford having lots of people in prison. If possible, as many as possible need to get some kind of college or similar edu.

YIP
Zack

[sandycoosworth]

Punishment has 4 main facets:

Punitive IE when someone does something bad they deserve something bad to happen to them. This is the loss of freedom, services, torture or perhaps death.

Rehabilitative IE to modify the offender in order to make sure he or she  does not repeat his or her transgressions.

Liability IE reparations for the victims (note this can include the punitive aspect)

Disincentive/Precedent IE you want any other shithead kids to know if they kill a homeless man they will getthe book thrown at them

Basically this kid is asking that we ignore the first and third to focus on the second thereby helping accomplish the fourth... In layman's terms: he made his bed and does not want to lie in it.

[Fury]

If he's having this much trouble with prison this early into his sentence, he'll probably end up offing himself.

[Hedgehog]

I'm pretty sure Manson never even killed. He just instructed his followers to kill.

Sidenote: The Manson case is interesting. It's weird how he can be in jail for life without ever murdering anyone.

YIP
Zack

[Fury]

Good thing I'm not in Sweden. Do you guys let serial killers out because they say they're sorry and ready to contribute to society?

[Camel Jockey]

Ok.

The kid commits a horrible crime.

He's locked up for 22 years.

If, through using lots of therapy and medication (chemical castration? ) and whatnot, experts are able to change this kid into a decent young man, why not put him back into society?

YIP
Zack

What the hell? I don't understand your stance on this issue. Why should a killer be put back into society? He is clearly wreckless, his murder of a homeless guy is testament to that.

Bottom line is that you don't want this kid to be punished for his crime. I agree that the sentence of 20+ years is a little harsh, maybe 10-15 would be better. The thing is that if you cut this kid some slack, then you have to do the same for the ghetto gang members who'll never be of any benefit to soceity. 

[Hedgehog]

Good thing I'm not in Sweden. Do you guys let serial killers out because they say they're sorry and ready to contribute to society?

Nope. They're sentenced to life, and may get out after 30-40? if they're lucky. Not sure though.

Or the unlucky ones, they gets classified as insane, and gets put in the soul asylum indefinite.

Some people have been in soul asylum for ages and are never coming out, they could be put there on manslaughter or rape or whatever, but the doctors will keep anyone who's unfit for society locked up.

YIP
Zack

[Fury]

What the hell? I don't understand your stance on this issue. Why should a killer be put back into society? He is clearly wreckless, his murder of a homeless guy is testament to that.

Bottom line is that you don't want this kid to be punished for his crime. I agree that the sentence of 20+ years is a little harsh, maybe 10-15 would be better. The thing is that if you cut this kid some slack, then you have to do the same for the ghetto gang members who'll never be of any benefit to soceity. 

10-15? If this kid was 3 years old he'd be getting the chair. I'm shocked he didn't get life. He's basically showed no remorse over the fact that 4 kids beat an innocent homeless guy to death, he deserves nothing less than what he got to begin with.

[Hedgehog]

What the hell? I don't understand your stance on this issue. Why should a killer be put back into society? He is clearly wreckless, his murder of a homeless guy is testament to that.

Bottom line is that you don't want this kid to be punished for his crime. I agree that the sentence of 20+ years is a little harsh, maybe 10-15 would be better. The thing is that if you cut this kid some slack, then you have to do the same for the ghetto gang members who'll never be of any benefit to soceity. 

My point is what really matters, is to make this kid fit for society again.

So if he has to be in prison, doing therapy and other stuff for 20 years, or 30 years, then so be it.

Or 3 years.

The point I am trying to make is, that the only thing that matters, that the kid changes into a contributing member of our society. As soon as possible.

The goal with imprisonment and sentencing has been lost IMO, and the opportunity that the lock up gives, to force therapy on the inmates and such, is lost.

Due to society not wanting to spend money on prisons, and also wanting the prisoners to suffer, for emotional reasons.

Understandable, but I doubt that it will produce the best results.

YIP
Zack

[YoungBlood]

Jeffrey Dahmer?  Ted BUndy?  OJ ? Oh wait...

Just pointed out that he never killed, but your point was understood.

[buffbodz]

In allot of states the kid would walk after he turned 21.  Thankfully that has been changed by most.  We have the Craig Price law.  A 13 year old, like this kid, huge for his age, goes on a killing spree and kills 6 neighbors in 2 years.  When he was caught he was to be released on his 21st. birthday!  The courts invented all kinds of ways to keep him locked up, like for refusing a physiological test, told not to take by his defense lawyer.  Then their were guards who said he assaulted them.  In the meantime a law was passed that transfers minors out of juvi court into the real court system.  He's still doing 30 years for the assaulting charge and I'm sure he'll do something to keep him their for life. 

It would be much easier and better for all to go back to the days of an eye for an eye.  You kill, we kill you.  Jails too hard.  Bullshit.