serious questions regarding the current judging standards

[natural al]

I was thinking about this last night after Alexxx asked a simple question about who's better than Jay Cutler.  Does Jay Cutler meet all the qualifications of what a mr. olympia should look like?  What are the official standards that a mr. o has to meet?

I posted something similar to this in alexxx's thread but I'll repost it here.  If we had a time machine and stuck Jay Cutler in it-right as he won the olympia and could magically put him onstage at the 91 or 92 olympia how would he do?  How many of the top names in the sport today could stand onstage 10 or 15 years ago?  In my mind very few guys today could get up onstage 15 years ago and be competitive with the standards that were in place then.  Ronnie Rockel, Dave henry and Mark Dugdale come to mind.  Ronnie and Dave were buried at the olympia and Mark could not even qualify.  What criteria is Mark not meeting?  he's in shape, has excellent presentation and has a very "classical" looking body.  why is this not being rewarded?  How can the current system reward a mess like kamali? 

think about this 2 guys who have survived from that era Gunter and Darrem Charles were also rans 10 years ago.  Are they better today?  Sure they are but even if they would have showed up in thier current shape they'd still be also rans.  Could Ronnie Coleman walk out onstage in his 2006 olympia condition and win the 98 olympia?  99?  No.  If you think he would there are problems.  I doubt he could walk out onstage looking like he did and be top 5 at the 91 olympia...what does that say?  Who fits the criteria that the IFBB is supposed to be following better a 91 Lee Labrada or a 06 Ronnie Coleman?  Ronnie is big but let's be honest is he what BB is all about?  Freaks have thier place don't get me wrong but compare Markus from last year to his pics from his pro debut.  In his debut he was big, hard as a rock, seperated and muscular as hell.  How much of that has he retained?  he's big that's it.  Put Markus next to Labrada in 91 and Lee would bury him.  Today Labrada would have a hard time even getting to the O stage.

Have the standards changed?  Waht are the official rules?  Am I nuts or am I making sense?

[MikeThaMachine]

It's all the judges fault, I have said before that BBing fans should vote for judges like people do for the House Of Representatives.

[SteelePegasus]

My friend, you are not being fair to Jay. Look at this way

if you took a baseball pitcher from the 30s' and put in the field today would he be able to post the same numbers?

if you put a basketball player from the 60 and put him on the court today would he be able to compete as effectively?

would the #1 song from 1965 be a #1 song if released today?


point being...times change, people's taste change, what sold yesterday may not sell today.


ummm...
I was making a good point until I realized that the pictures of BBs that I like are from 20-40 years ago.....I guess not all progress is good

[natural al]

I would like a judge to come on here and explain why Ronnie Rockel was not top 15 at the olympia, what criteria did he fail to meet and what criteria or area of judging did Dennis James beat him in?  They can't just say "Dennis was bigger" cause that's not the give all end all of BB.  Who had better seperation?  Who had a better taper?  Who was more muscular?  Who was harder?  Who posed better?  Who was more Complete?

[natural al]

My friend, you are not being fair to Jay. Look at this way

if you took a baseball pitcher from the 30s' and put in the field today would he be able to post the same numbers?

if you put a basketball player from the 60 and put him on the court today would he be able to compete as effectively?

would the #1 song from 1965 be a #1 song if released today?


point being...times change, people's taste change, what sold yesterday may not sell today.


ummm...
I was making a good point until I realized that the pictures of BBs that I like are from 20-40 years ago.....I guess not all progress is good

but if you put a top baseball player from today on a 1970's field would he succeed or fail?  he'd succeed cause the athletes are progressing in that sport, they exceed the standards that were set in the 70's.  BB today don't and I just want to understand why or at least explain the logic to me as to how the sport has progressed, cause I just don't get it.

[JasonH]

but if you put a top baseball player from today on a 1970's field would he succeed or fail?  he'd succeed cause the athletes are progressing in that sport, they exceed the standards that were set in the 70's.  BB today don't and I just want to understand why or at least explain the logic to me as to how the sport has progressed, cause I just don't get it.

I disagree. Put Jay Cutler back to 1975 and he'd destroy Arnold.

[Palpatine Q]

I disagree. Put Jay Cutler back to 1975 and he'd destroy Arnold.

Or he'd be laughed off of the stage because of his big fat stomach.

NO ONE had a gut back then, having a trim waist was just as important as the rest.

[SteelePegasus]

I am just happy that the judges are finally following the X frame mandate that came out a few years ago.

look at the difference that it is making 

[natural al]

I disagree. Put Jay Cutler back to 1975 and he'd destroy Arnold.

what if you put jay onstage in the haney era?  Could he stand next to haney or Labrada or even a 1986 Rich Gaspari and beat them soundly using the standards of that time period?  I don't think so, like I said-and I like Jay-he's like a fridge with arms and legs, why is that being rewarded?

[natural al]

I am just happy that the judges are finally following the X frame mandate that came out a few years ago.

look at the difference that it is making 

magazine sales are down.  Attendence at shows is down.  No TV coverage...no nothing.  How can anyone involved in the sport think that it's moving in a positive direction?  If the IFBB went to ESPN and said "what do we have to do to get back on TV" what do you think they would say?

[Saxon]

If the IFBB went to ESPN and said "what do we have to do to get back on TV" what do you think they would say?

They would laugh them out of the building.

[natural al]

They would laugh them out of the building.

well let's pretend that they would give an answer what do you think that would be?

[Saxon]

well let's pretend that they would give an answer what do you think that would be?

In between fits of laughing, i'm sure they would say "get rid of the drugs, ugly bodies and pitch it to a channel that can market it to the gay audience

[natural al]

In between fits of laughing, i'm sure they would say "get rid of the drugs, ugly bodies and pitch it to a channel that can market it to the gay audience

they used to have a show on called american muscle which I think did well for them for awhile, there is an audience out there, BB was getting big back in the early 90's, would changing the judging standards to reflect the type of body that was successful in the early 90's help or hurt the sport?

[MikeThaMachine]

they used to have a show on called american muscle which I think did well for them for awhile, there is an audience out there, BB was getting big back in the early 90's, would changing the judging standards to reflect the type of body that was successful in the early 90's help or hurt the sport?

BBers back then were way more likely to appear in a t.v. show or movie cause they weren't grotesque mass monsters, I think they would have more market appeal if they still looked that way.

[GoneAway]

I would say size is the most important thing today. Jay has alot of that on a big frame. He also matches every other "criteria." His gut may be offputting, but he's got a champion physique and beats the hell out of alot of guys.

[onlyme]

I most imprtant criteria for a judge is to be able to do exactly what the boss tells them.  If he has someone he wants to win or place the judges better be able to make it happen.  Why do you think the same judges are used all the time (or most of the time) The have proven to be loyal and do what they are told.  Very simple.

[Disgusted]

Different judges, different winners. It's only an opinion.

[SteelePegasus]

Different judges, different winners. It's only an opinion.

disgusted that is a cop out answer from someone in the industry

btw, how is kamali's gut? you pulled miracle on that one good job

I truly believe that ronnie needs to dump chad and call you up

[GoneAway]

Should we judge shape only?  Or mostly put emphasis on it?  If so, Jay should not win.  However, I think any Mr. Olympia should have some degree of stature (let's say, minimum of 5'.  Note Lee Haney was 5'11 as was Ronnie and Dorian was 5'10.  Had Rich Gaspari been Lee's height, what do you think would have happened?

Saying a Mr. O should meet a certain height standard is not what the sport is about.

[GoneAway]

Stature goes hand in hand with shape though.  Proportions are generally the best for the medium height guys.  Gunter and Dave Henry both have flaws that they have no control over due to their height.  I think this is why historically, most of the Mr. Os have been in the medium range.

Some of the shortest guys have the best 'shape' and some of the tallest guys have been the longest reigning Mr. Olympias.