.

[garraeth]

.

[Dos Equis]

Do LDS let black people in heaven now?  Or was that just a wives' tale? 

[Dos Equis]

Black people could always go to heaven. They could not always hold the priesthood. Until '60's or '70's (can't remember the year).

Reasons I've heard for this (I'll be brutally honest here -- none are completely confirmed however -- these are just what I've heard from people and there is nothing about this in the LDS cannon of scripture):

--The majority of the church were white people, and they could not handle (had closed minds & prejudices) the idea of a black person being "as good" as them.

--(this is kinda long and requires background)...the belief is that black people are from a different "tribe" (kinda like the Jews are from a greater tribe), a lesser tribe...in fact, they are the children of Cain. As time goes on, and we get closer to the end of the world, the best spirits of all time start to come to the earth. The closer we get, the better the spirits (and the worse -- causing a polarizing effect, but this doesn't really relate to the black issue). So, basically the idea is that finally all the lesser black spirits had died off and only the more advanced black spirits were being born. So they were able/worthy(?) to have the priesthood.

--course there is always the: the church did it because of political correctness issues in a time when black people were becoming more equal. This kinda goes along w/ the first point where the general church populous were more open minded now.

Thanks for the explanation.  So could the "bad spirits" go to heaven? 

Also, another question:  I heard LDS can pray their deceased relatives into heaven.  Is that one of their beliefs? 

[Dos Equis]

How do you reconcile that with James 4:17:  "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."  In other words, a person cannot commit sin if they don't know what they're doing is wrong.  At least that's my interpretation.   

[Butterbean]

garreth thanks a lot for helping us understand what you believe.

Some questions:

1)  Do LDSs believe that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are equal in value?  Or is one to be taken over the other?

2)  What are LDS requirements for salvation?  Do LDSs believe you have to be water-baptized to be saved?

[Dos Equis]

I don't. I read that verse different: if you know what to do, and don't, you sin.

I agree with this.  But I don't see the connection between the "general sin" and ticket examples.  Re tickets:  secular law specifically says that everyone is on notice of all laws, whether you read them or not.  The Bible doesn't say this.  There is actually an out (in James).  To me it comes down to fairness.  There are a host of people could be affected:  those who have never heard "the truth"; mentally disabled people; kids. 

[Tre]

Do LDS let black people in heaven now?  Or was that just a wives' tale? 

Yes, but only if they've paid an adequate percentage of their wages. 

[Tre]

Black people could always go to heaven. They could not always hold the priesthood. Until '60's or '70's (can't remember the year).

Reasons I've heard for this (I'll be brutally honest here -- none are completely confirmed however -- these are just what I've heard from people and there is nothing about this in the LDS cannon of scripture):

--The majority of the church were white people, and they could not handle (had closed minds & prejudices) the idea of a black person being "as good" as them.

--(this is kinda long and requires background)...the belief is that black people are from a different "tribe" (kinda like the Jews are from a greater tribe), a lesser tribe...in fact, they are the children of Cain. As time goes on, and we get closer to the end of the world, the best spirits of all time start to come to the earth. The closer we get, the better the spirits (and the worse -- causing a polarizing effect, but this doesn't really relate to the black issue). So, basically the idea is that finally all the lesser black spirits had died off and only the more advanced black spirits were being born. So they were able/worthy(?) to have the priesthood.

--course there is always the: the church did it because of political correctness issues in a time when black people were becoming more equal. This kinda goes along w/ the first point where the general church populous were more open minded now.

1978

Right, that whole Cain thing.  Since there was no way to get away from its blatantly racist roots, they had to come up with a way to 'spin' the new doctrine because it directly contradicted what 'the prophets' (Joseph Smith/Brigham Young) had passed down to them. 

The timing of the change coincided not only with socio-political pressures here in the U.S., but also with the expansion of the church into South America where most of their members were dark-skinned peoples.  For any church - especially an aggressive one - more members = more money and allowing people of color into the 'priesthood' would provide a far greater cash benefit.  Making the green was far more important than keeping the church lily white. 

But don't expect to see a dark-skinned 'prophet' anytime soon.  They are very mindful of the numbers and dark-skinned individuals are only allowed to ascend but so far in the church's hierarchy. 

The beliefs they held and previously spoke about regarding the evil nature of Blacks are *still* talked about this day in their churches as they pertain to native Americans.  It's almost amazing that such tremendous ignorance can even exist in 2006.  Any reasonable person would be appalled by much of what these people are still preaching. 

[Tre]

How do you reconcile that with James 4:17:  "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."  In other words, a person cannot commit sin if they don't know what they're doing is wrong.  At least that's my interpretation.   

Despite their claims to the contrary, Mormons aren't really down with the Bible.  It's a tool of convenience they wield in order to gain more mainstream acceptance in the U.S. and Canada.

That said, I believe most western religions believe that people are held to a higher standard if they've been taught what sin is.

[Tre]

Pray their deceased into heaven:
Kinda. Sorta. More background. If you were born in Outer Mongolia and never heard of Christ (assuming Christianity is a requirement to get into heaven), and you die of old age and lived a wonderful, good life. Would it be fair if you were sent to hell (or the place for "bad" spirits) just because you were not baptised? No...you never had that opportunity.

So Mormons believe that we (the living) can get baptised (and other sacraments) for the people who have died but were not baptised. But even if a living person is baptised for you (being from Outer Mongolia), you still have the choice of accepting that baptism or not. You're not forced into it.

But you can't pray anyone into heaven...you just give them the missing pieces they didn't pick up while alive. And then they make the choice.

Just a point of clarification: the Mormons believe that *only* a 'physical body' can be baptized.  So, if you're already dead, but never chose to be baptized (into their church) while you were on earth, then the only way for you to get into their church - and therefore become eligible to ascend into 1 of the 3 'levels' of heaven - is for someone to be baptized for you here on earth.

Needless to say, their 'baptisms for the dead' is one of the creepiest beliefs/rituals I've encountered. 

Their other temple ordinances require a physical body as well, but you're not eligible for those until at least a year after your baptism and many people never get that far. 

[Tre]

Some questions:

1)  Do LDSs believe that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are equal in value?  Or is one to be taken over the other?

2)  What are LDS requirements for salvation?  Do LDSs believe you have to be water-baptized to be saved?

The Book of Mormon (BoM) definitely has trump in their church.  Go to a 'testimony meeting' sometime (held the first Sunday of every month, except for April and October when it's moved to the second Sunday) and listen for the following:

"I'm so thankful for the restored gospel."
"I'm grateful for the priesthood authority."
"I know this church is true."
"I know the book of mormon is true."
"I know Joseph Smith was a prophet."
"I know that Gordon B. Hinckley is our prophet today."

etc. etc. etc.

They repeat these things over and over and if you hear the same thing 50 Sundays a year for 15-20 years, there's a chance that you'll begin to believe it.  It's all about peer pressure with these folks - you aren't a part of the in crowd unless you have a 'testimony' of the gospel, and you can't have that unless you believe:

1) that Joseph Smith was a prophet
2) that the Book of mormon is 'true'
3) that the church is 'true' (and that it's god's ONE TRUE CHURCH on earth)

You have to have those 3 or you don't qualify, period.

Yes, only baptism by water is acceptable on their pathway to salvation.  And then there's a bunch of other stuff on their checklist as well.   

[Dos Equis]

I agree. There are a lot of holes. But those holes are filled the same as any religion does -- "it'll all work out in the end".

You could also argue that someone whose mentally retarded and kills someone in cold blood is not a murder because they are retarded...whose to say.

As a side note: I know a ton about the Mormon religion, but that's not to say there are not unanswered questions I have, and there are many things I disagree with. My biggest pet peeve is that no one asks critical, probing questions (this is probably the case w/ any religion tho). I'm telling you guys what they believe. I won't debate it because, imo, there is no point. I give you the fact (the belief/writings of the church) and you decide on your own.

Completely agree.  Debating religious doctrine is a waste of time for the most part.  The point of my questions wasn't to try and argue.  Although I use tongue-in-cheek a lot (probably too much), I am genuinely interested in different religious faiths.  Thanks for the responses.    

[Hugo Chavez]

“Monogamy, or restrictions by law to ONE WIFE, IS NO PART OF THE ECONOMY OF HEAVEN AMONG MEN. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire....Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this MONOGAMIC ORDER OF MARRIAGE, so esteemed by modern Christians as a HOLY SACRAMENT and DIVINE INSTITUTION, is nothing but a system established by a SET OF ROBBERS....
“Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practised it. 'And IS THAT RELIGION POPULAR IN HEAVEN?' IT IS THE ONLY POPULAR RELIGION THERE,...” Brigham Young

[Tre]

Mormons also recognize the fact that the bible has been tampered with. So it is missing stuff and has stuff changed to fit various kings and/or leaders opinions.

As I view the world, all religious texts were written by men and therefore, *must* be in some way flawed or imperfect.  Of course, that opinion assumes that God/god is 'perfect'...which seems less and less true each day.

That's said as someone who has a 'good faith' belief that some 'greater-than-man' entity does indeed exist.  I'm incapable of ever being a true atheist.

[Tre]

You are correct.

But by your tone I can tell you don't like Mormons, and/or have had a bad experience. I can answer your questions (if you have any), but can't change your opinion. You also know that nearly all churches believe the same -- if you aren't one of us, you're of of heaven. Find one that doesn't, and join it.

I love the Mormons!  I mean, who doesn't?

They've run a carefully scripted PR campaign for at least two decades and there are countless examples of non-members absolutely loving the Mormons 'just because'. 

If there's a reasonably faithful and true Mormon family with kids on your block (flawed like everyone, but fairly good members with respect to the laws of chastity and the word of wisdom, etc), then chances are other parents in the neighborhood appreciate the fact that their kids get to be around kids who have generally good values.  Even many bad parents want their kids to have 'good' friends. 

As to my own beliefs, yes, I believe that the Mormons are just as full of junk as the next church when it comes to matters of the 'gospel'.  BUT the fact that I'm a non-believer doesn't mean that I don't support many of the values that the Mormons hold in high esteem.  The importance of family and clean living are values that no one should fault.  I also like the food storage initiative and the amount of support they offer one another in certain areas that might go overlooked.  For example, last night, my daughter's mom made dinner for another family whose mother had just undergone surgery at the hospital.  For the next couple of weeks, other church members will deliver meals and it'll happen like clockwork.  K didn't know the family, however, so she was a little caught off guard when she showed up with enough food for 4-5 people and discovered that they actually have *6* kids, so we're talking a family of 8. 

I attend the meetings, but don't pray or partake of the sacrament, of course.  I occasionally go to Sunday school and I'm a pretty active part of the class.  (I don't do the priesthood thing, though...I've been maybe once in 4-5 years)  My daughter's mom insists on raising M 'in the church' and even though I think the church is full of nutters, I'm willing to allow that.  There are enough positives in what is taught to outweigh much of the wackiness.  It's important that I be around for as much of the indoctrination as possible, though, because when my kid gets older and begins to question the Mormon reality, I need to be able to educate her from a perspective that takes into account what's been drilled into her through the years in church.

 

[Dos Equis]

Black people could always go to heaven. They could not always hold the priesthood. Until '60's or '70's (can't remember the year).

Reasons I've heard for this (I'll be brutally honest here -- none are completely confirmed however -- these are just what I've heard from people and there is nothing about this in the LDS cannon of scripture):

--The majority of the church were white people, and they could not handle (had closed minds & prejudices) the idea of a black person being "as good" as them.

--(this is kinda long and requires background)...the belief is that black people are from a different "tribe" (kinda like the Jews are from a greater tribe), a lesser tribe...in fact, they are the children of Cain. As time goes on, and we get closer to the end of the world, the best spirits of all time start to come to the earth. The closer we get, the better the spirits (and the worse -- causing a polarizing effect, but this doesn't really relate to the black issue). So, basically the idea is that finally all the lesser black spirits had died off and only the more advanced black spirits were being born. So they were able/worthy(?) to have the priesthood.

--course there is always the: the church did it because of political correctness issues in a time when black people were becoming more equal. This kinda goes along w/ the first point where the general church populous were more open minded now.

I just watched a clip about Mormons and their views on blacks.  Shocking.  Ten minutes long. 

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There is also this representative excerpt, which talks about their pre-Civil Rights Movement views on blacks:

Elder MARK E. PETERSON
Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church
Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level,
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death....

The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. "No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood" (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a "Nation of Priesthood holders"....

The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded by some of the arguments that have been put forth....We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not to be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject....

I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace"....

Now let's talk about segregation again for a few moments. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation....

When he told Enoch not preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation....

Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them....

The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse -- as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there....

Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, "what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Only here we have the reverse of the thing -- what God hath separated, let not man bring together again."

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml