Author Topic: Whats Clen?  (Read 6733 times)

danielson

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Whats Clen?
« on: December 19, 2006, 01:17:09 PM »
The owner of my gym told me he was going to take Clen to shed some weight. He said it was strong. Is it a diet aid or a steroid?
E

El Diablo Blanco

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2006, 01:44:58 PM »
Neither.  It helps you breath.

Chevybigguns

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 01:45:17 PM »
Its one of the best pre-contest drugs that you can take. Yes, it is a controlled substance.

danielson

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 01:46:28 PM »
Its one of the best pre-contest drugs that you can take. Yes, it is a controlled substance.

He made it sound like it was so hard to get ahold of. I was just curious what the big deal was. Thanks.
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Chevybigguns

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2006, 02:00:50 PM »
Its not hard to get ahold of at all. But anavar and clen would be at the top of my list of dieting supplements.

Rimbaud

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 02:03:00 PM »

Princess L

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 08:08:01 PM »
http://www.steroid.com/Clenbuterol.php

Rim,
Did you read the stuff written on that site?  ::)

'cuse me  ;) but it is full of a lot of CRAP
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Arnold jr

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2006, 08:32:20 PM »

Rim,
Did you read the stuff written on that site?  ::)

'cuse me  ;) but it is full of a lot of CRAP

What part(s) do you disagree with? I usually like the web site and often recommend it to people when they want info on a particular substance. The profiles were written by Anthony Roberts, he goes by "hooker" on this board. Roberts has some good info on the various drugs...I do not always agree with every last thing he says about certain things, but he is well versed and well educated on drugs.

Rimbaud

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2006, 08:33:59 PM »

Rim,
Did you read the stuff written on that site?  ::)

'cuse me  ;) but it is full of a lot of CRAP


Some of it...I didn't feel like summarizing clen in my own words. I'm tired today.

Fury

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2006, 08:46:17 PM »
His description doesn't seem that bad.

Princess L

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2006, 09:18:59 PM »
Excerpts:
The things that stood out to me...
(admittedly, I did not read EVERYTHING that closely)


There´s still no doubt about it, in my mind Clen will help you lose fat and gain muscle.

the 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off schedule for clen dosing is far from optimal, and if you want the quasi-anabolic effect from the clen, it´ll take more than 2weeks on (6 weeks apparently). In addition, since clen alone is similar to clen+ exercise for those first 2 weeks...why would you ever use a 2on/2off protocol? Keep in mind that animal responses to beta-agonist/antagonists differ a bit from ours but I´m sure that you get the idea that 2on/2off is not a great dosing protocol. If I were using clen, I´d be using it for 6-12 weeks at a time, if I expected to get maximum results from it.

This may mean that clenbuterol can help blast you past "sticking points" in your training by circumventing the usual mechanisms by which anabolism is experienced!

Then he goes on to say…

In any case, Clearly the results you want to reproduce for yourself are those to be gained by clen + exercise, for 6 weeks or more. This type of dramatic anabolic effect hasn´t been confirmed in human studies (8), but the anabolic effects of clen in animal (specifically equine and rodent) studies are clearly quite astounding.

My recommendations are the same for both men and women. You´ll need to take 20mcgs upon rising, and then repeat that same dose again later in the day, and then once again in that day (if you find you can tolerate the effects). So you´ll start with 20mcgs, and then repeat that dose 2 more times that same day if you can tolerate it (side effects will determine this hand shaking, sweating, etc& classic stimulant sides). Then you can start increasing the dose gradually. Personally, I wouldn´t work my way up to more than 200mcg/day  :o  I should hope not!

:

Fury

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2006, 09:21:29 PM »
Yeah, his dosage paragraph stood out to me after reading through it.

BuffGoddess

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2006, 09:57:11 PM »
Excerpts:
The things that stood out to me...
(admittedly, I did not read EVERYTHING that closely)


There´s still no doubt about it, in my mind Clen will help you lose fat and gain muscle.

the 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off schedule for clen dosing is far from optimal, and if you want the quasi-anabolic effect from the clen, it´ll take more than 2weeks on (6 weeks apparently). In addition, since clen alone is similar to clen+ exercise for those first 2 weeks...why would you ever use a 2on/2off protocol? Keep in mind that animal responses to beta-agonist/antagonists differ a bit from ours but I´m sure that you get the idea that 2on/2off is not a great dosing protocol. If I were using clen, I´d be using it for 6-12 weeks at a time, if I expected to get maximum results from it.

This may mean that clenbuterol can help blast you past "sticking points" in your training by circumventing the usual mechanisms by which anabolism is experienced!

Then he goes on to say…

In any case, Clearly the results you want to reproduce for yourself are those to be gained by clen + exercise, for 6 weeks or more. This type of dramatic anabolic effect hasn´t been confirmed in human studies (8), but the anabolic effects of clen in animal (specifically equine and rodent) studies are clearly quite astounding.

My recommendations are the same for both men and women. You´ll need to take 20mcgs upon rising, and then repeat that same dose again later in the day, and then once again in that day (if you find you can tolerate the effects). So you´ll start with 20mcgs, and then repeat that dose 2 more times that same day if you can tolerate it (side effects will determine this hand shaking, sweating, etc& classic stimulant sides). Then you can start increasing the dose gradually. Personally, I wouldn´t work my way up to more than 200mcg/day  :o  I should hope not!




I did not know about the anabolic effects of Clen. I have exercise induced asthma and originally started using it to help with that since my prescription meds were so expensive. Therapeutic doses are pretty low. I then started using it in a stack to cut weight for shows and found it was awesome. Thanks for the info, I learn something new every day...

Princess L

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 10:02:03 PM »

I did not know about the anabolic effects of Clen. I have exercise induced asthma and originally started using it to help with that since my prescription meds were so expensive. Therapeutic doses are pretty low. I then started using it in a stack to cut weight for shows and found it was awesome. Thanks for the info, I learn something new every day...

That's the part of the point I was making in my original post.  Clen is NOT anabolic.
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Rimbaud

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2006, 10:08:22 PM »
That's the part of the point I was making in my original post.  Clen is NOT anabolic.

I've read it can be anabolic (but I can't remember where). If my memory serves you have to take it for 6-8 weeks. I could be wrong. If I can stay awake another hour or so maybe I'll try to find the article.

Princess L

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2006, 10:22:07 PM »
I've read it can be anabolic (but I can't remember where). If my memory serves you have to take it for 6-8 weeks. I could be wrong. If I can stay awake another hour or so maybe I'll try to find the article.

I think I have too, but only in animals - not humans  ??? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9049721&dopt=Abstract

Go to bed - sleep is more important and also anabolic  ;)
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Princess L

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2006, 05:40:17 PM »
As many of you know, I'm a woman of few words.  Usually, pretty straight forward and to the point.  Something got into me, I don't know, maybe a bug up my ass, but as I read this article on clenbuterol, I couldn't help but think that it was full of BS.   Since some of you appear to respect the guy, I decided to read closer to see if there was something I was missing.  I always try to read things with a scrutinizing eye and try to use trusted, reliable resources and scientific data.  Just because someone references XYZ study, doesn’t mean anything.  So much data can be skewed depending on the way the study was performed and who is “funding” the study, not to mention, the study could be totally meaningless as you will see.

He says that clen & ephedrine work by suppressing appetite. Really?   :o Clen does this?  He has a reference though.: "Relationship between food intake and metabolic rate in rats treated with beta-adrenoceptor agonists. From here it just gets worse.

Then he tries to explain the method of action, yet all it says is that clen increases lipolysis. Nowhere  does he mention fat mobilization. Reference 13 is to an interesting article that you can download for yourself entitled "Multiple actions of beta-adrenergic agonists on skeletal muscle and adipose tissue." I read it and it says nothing about humans. It's all about animal data. He says that it's unfortunate that clen decreases insulin sensitivity. Does he even know how clen works and why the insulin resistance is desirable? 

Next he talks about clen as a repartitioning agent. Okay, he says it may increase FFM, but the study that he references is on "chronic administration of therapeutic levels of clenbuterol acts as a repartitioning agent"... "in twenty-three unfit Standardbred mares!" (that’s adult female horses in case you didn’t know  ;)).

Then he goes on to give us the graphs of the horse data. Apparently he hasn’t heard clen doesn't have {significant} anabolic effects in humans.  It’s scary that he is using horse data to recommend full 6-12 weeks on. (because the mares who exercised only gained FFM (a whopping 4.4%) after week 6. You've got to be kidding.   ::)

This is good: "even though it is known that its effects on animals are typically much more dramatic than in humans….There’s still no doubt about it, in my mind…Clen will help you lose fat and gain muscle." In other words, "even though I know it doesn't work like this in humans, I'm sure it works the same."  WTF  ???

Now the ‘expert’ advice. "if you want the quasi-anabolic effect from the clen, it’ll take more than 2 weeks on (apparently 6 weeks)." Great advice. I'm sure it'll be much more anabolic at week 6 when your receptors are severely down regulated. He goes on, "Keep in mind that animal responses to beta-agonist/antagonists differ a bit from ours…(no f'g $h!t) but I’m sure that you get the idea that 2on/2off is not a great dosing protocol." Why do you even say to keep it in mind when recommending dosages based on a horses response?

He says, "The reasons for the further increase in FFM around week 6 despite no changes in % fat or fat mass is not easily explained." No? Well… let me explain it for you. No change in % fat BECAUSE THE RECEPTORS ARE FRIED!

He says that clen will increase muscle protein synthesis in your body. Oh really? This is based off of the study he references -  "Chronic effects of beta 2-adrenergic agonists on body composition and protein synthesis in the rat."

Next says that "clenbuterol can help blast you past 'sticking points' in your training by circumventing the usual mechanisms by which anabolism is experienced! It is of note that both muscle composition and fiber size has been shown to increase with administration of clen." That study: "The effect of the anabolic agent, clenbuterol, on overloaded rat skeletal muscle."

Finally he says something about humans -  "This type of dramatic anabolic effect hasn’t been confirmed in human studies." DUH!  ::) :o ::)

You can read the rest if you want.  For me, this confirms what I said earlier.  The article is full of CRAP.  This leads me to another observation (albeit speculative) – this guy probably shouldn’t be trusted since he uses random, inapplicable studies frequently.

OK, I’ll shut up now.
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BuffGoddess

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2006, 06:00:11 PM »
You go girl! And thanks for taking the time to clarify. I love it when supposed "studies" are picked apart in the light of day and exposed for the pile of crap they really are. Kudos !!!!

Rimbaud

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2006, 07:56:06 PM »

Go to bed - sleep is more important and also anabolic  ;)


I tried but RoboCop was last night.

Arnold jr

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2006, 08:04:06 PM »
I just emailed Roberts (hooker) and asked him to weigh in on this....we'll see what he says...should be interesting.

Fury

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2006, 08:31:52 PM »
I tried but RoboCop was last night.

I see that movie on Encore Action channel almost daily now.

Impressive post Princess L, you know your shit.

Princess L

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2006, 08:34:33 PM »
I just emailed Roberts (hooker) and asked him to weigh in on this....we'll see what he says...should be interesting.
  You trying to start a fight?
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Rimbaud

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2006, 08:35:42 PM »
  You trying to start a fight?

I think so...FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Arnold jr

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2006, 09:03:53 PM »
  You trying to start a fight?
No, not hardly. But I think the best person to answer to these claims in the clen profile would be the guy who wrote it.

hooker

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Re: Whats Clen?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2006, 07:05:12 AM »
Quote
He says that clen & ephedrine work by suppressing appetite. Really?   :o Clen does this? 



Yes. Really. Beta-2 stimulation is well known to slow gastric emptying, and activation of the sympathetic nervous system decreases hunger. Again, this is so well known and documented that it doesn't merit debate.

Quote
He says that it's unfortunate that clen decreases insulin sensitivity. Does he even know how clen works and why the insulin resistance is desirable?  ::)

Why is insulin resistance desirable? You've peaked my interest. Insulin resistance is linked with heart problems as well as obesity. Tell me why that's desirable. Diabetics are insulin resistant. Is being diabetic desirable? Elaborate.

Quote
Next he talks about clen as a repartitioning agent. Okay, he says it may increase FFM, but the study that he references is on "chronic administration of therapeutic levels of clenbuterol acts as a repartitioning agent"... "in twenty-three unfit Standardbred mares!" (that’s adult female horses in case you didn’t know  ;)).

In the case of clenbuterol, animal data is basically all we have to go on.
Quote
Then he goes on to give us the graphs of the horse data. Apparently he hasn’t heard clen doesn't have {significant} anabolic effects in humans.  It’s scary that he is using horse data to recommend full 6-12 weeks on. (because the mares who exercised only gained FFM (a whopping 4.4%) after week 6. You've got to be kidding.   ::)

If that study or my comments on it are invalid, please give a better reason than "you've got to be kidding me".
Quote
In other words, "even though I know it doesn't work like this in humans, I'm sure it works the same."  WTF  ???

No. That's not what is says at all. Your creating a strawman, and an informal fallacy.

Quote
Now the ‘expert’ advice. "if you want the quasi-anabolic effect from the clen, it’ll take more than 2 weeks on (apparently 6 weeks)." Great advice. I'm sure it'll be much more anabolic at week 6 when your receptors are severely down regulated. He goes on, "Keep in mind that animal responses to beta-agonist/antagonists differ a bit from ours…(no f'g $h!t) but I’m sure that you get the idea that 2on/2off is not a great dosing protocol." Why do you even say to keep it in mind when recommending dosages based on a horses response?

Again, animal data is what we have to go on, with regards to references in medical journals. Oh...and the literally hundreds of members of steroid.com who have tried things my way and found it to be optimal and anabolic. And my dosing protocol is based on anecdotal human data (the members I surveyed and polled on steroid.com)...not just animal data. You should at least learn what kind of data I have/had access to before you attempt to dispute my conclusions.

Quote
He says, "The reasons for the further increase in FFM around week 6 despite no changes in % fat or fat mass is not easily explained." No? Well… let me explain it for you. No change in % fat BECAUSE THE RECEPTORS ARE FRIED!

Hence my reccomendations to include benadryl.

Quote
He says that clen will increase muscle protein synthesis in your body. Oh really? This is based off of the study he references -  "Chronic effects of beta 2-adrenergic agonists on body composition and protein synthesis in the rat."


Ha ha. Again, beta-2 agonists are well known to have this effect. Your lack of understanding and research is showing.

Quote
Next says that "clenbuterol can help blast you past 'sticking points' in your training by circumventing the usual mechanisms by which anabolism is experienced! It is of note that both muscle composition and fiber size has been shown to increase with administration of clen." That study: "The effect of the anabolic agent, clenbuterol, on overloaded rat skeletal muscle."

See comment above.

Quote
Finally he says something about humans -  "This type of dramatic anabolic effect hasn’t been confirmed in human studies." DUH!  ::) :o ::)

Now you criticize me for agreeing with you. At least you don't need to be consistent in your terrible rambling asessment of my work.

Quote
You can read the rest if you want.  For me, this confirms what I said earlier.  The article is full of CRAP.  This leads me to another observation (albeit speculative) – this guy probably shouldn’t be trusted since he uses random, inapplicable studies frequently.

I use the best data available within the limitations of what the medical field has to offer, combined with extensive polls and surveys on steroid.com, added to literally hundreds of data from athletes I interact with.



Quote
OK, I’ll shut up now.


Please don't. I'd like to see a valid refutation of my article, and not just "give me a break" and "duh" offered as your critique. If my references are invalid, please prove them so by counterexample or other studies. If you've ever researched clen (which you haven't), you'd know that human data is very scarse, and animal data is all we have to go on. In light of this, I suppose a detailed theory of why animal reaction to beta-2 stimulation would differ from the human reaction to it would be appropriate. I'll wait for your reply. But honestly, since your post shows an almost complete lack of understanding of the beta-2 system, I doubt anything you come up with will be sound...like the rest of your post.

Most interestingly, I'd like to learn how insulin resistance is desirable. Cardiovascular problems, increased risk of cancer, diabetes, shorter life spans, and obesity is desirable? That's the first thing I'd like explained, because I think that it's the thing that most accurately displays your total lack of understanding of...anything.