if jesus died for our sins

[ToxicAvenger]

<very hollywood romantic btw>


exactly what sins has a baby just born commited?




<now..i dont suffer fools gladly...make sure ya word it in ways that this makes sooome kinda sence>




:sorry guys..i promise i pick on Islam just as much..but i do it at home..mum and dad for the most part ARE pissed at me...but i dont have christians at home to pick on so you suffice :

[Jeff Miller]

exactly what sins has a baby just born commited?

If you subscribe to the belief in Original Sin, then we are all born with sin that must be forgiven, from Adam and Eve succumbing to Satan's temptation (Romans (RSV) 5:12-21). 

[sandycoosworth]

If you subscribe to the belief in Original Sin, then we are all born with sin that must be forgiven, from Adam and Eve succumbing to Satan's temptation (Romans (RSV) 5:12-21). 

thats right, only mary was born free from original sin (immaculate conception)

this is the kind of fantasy talk that over a billion people dont know they believe in:

The Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic dogma that asserts that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved by God from the stain of original sin at the time of her own conception. Specifically, the dogma says she was not afflicted by the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, but was instead filled with grace by God, and furthermore lived a life completely free from sin. It is commonly confused with the doctrine of the incarnation and virgin birth, though the two deal with separate subjects. According to the dogma, Mary was conceived by normal biological means, but her soul was acted upon by God (kept "immaculate") at the time of her conception.

[Jeff Miller]

thats right, only mary was born free from original sin (immaculate conception)

this is the kind of fantasy talk that over a billion people dont know they believe in:

That was actually a very good catch -- a lot of people don't realize that the Immaculate Conception is about Mary, not Jesus.  The confuse it with the Virgin Birth.

[Necrosis]

well if anyone hear had actually read any arguments and thought about free will then youd have a decent answer or is this only for christian answers. like ive already said god creates seperation for it is the only way for true manisfestation of love, no control equals free choice. if he controlled us then life would be pointless and love or free will would not exist. because of free will and choice evil and good exist. that is why babies are born sick, storms occur, choices we make cause the effects such as sick babies etc.

i can elaborate if you want

[DK II]

thats right, only mary was born free from original sin (immaculate conception)

this is the kind of fantasy talk that over a billion people dont know they believe in:

monster idiocy again.

I hate christianity. How stupid can anyone be to believe this bs of the original sin because of what Adam and Eve did, who never existed in the first place. Also, that every one on this planet is a sinner from his birth on and the only way to overcome this is to pray pay to the catholic church or become a closet homo priest.

Christianity: Awarded most stupid religion of the world again 2006.

 

[Butterbean]

<very hollywood romantic btw>


exactly what sins has a baby just born commited?

Hi Toxy. 

From a biblical perspective in Genesis we see that Adam and Eve were created w/o sin.  Then when they sinned, sin entered the world and affected everything negatively.  Everything in the world has the taint of sin.  Even plants which we find incredibly beautiful today were probably once much, much more beautiful and food was much more delicious.

So when babies are born, there is sin present.  Now, do babies that die go to heaven?  I believe YES!  This is evidenced by King David's baby that died and 2 Samuel 12:23:  "...now that he is dead, why should I fast?  Can I bring him back again?  I will go to him, but he will not return to me."





As far as Mary being born free from sin, that is found nowhere in the bible.  It is one of the many things that the Catholic Church teaches that is not scriptural.



Donkey Kong, when you refer to the "catholic church" are you referring to the "Roman Catholic Church" or the "catholic church?"

[DK II]

The one and only church there is on this planet, with the pope in rome being God's secretary on earth, the Roman-Catholic church.

Biggest club of losers and mind-boggled idiots in whole human history.

[Necrosis]

just a simple observation, and im no christian. but what i find funny is so of the atheists talking about how noble and kind and moral they are yet, they call all others dumb and stupid, for there beleifs. and ridicule others. just a thought

[DK II]

just a simple observation, and im no christian. but what i find funny is so of the atheists talking about how noble and kind and moral they are yet, they call all others dumb and stupid, for there beleifs. and ridicule others. just a thought

If you are referring to me, i never called myself noble and kind and i'm not atheist.

I just hate monotheistic religions down to the core of my heart because they ruin this world. 

[ToxicAvenger]

just a simple observation, and im no christian. but what i find funny is so of the atheists talking about how noble and kind and moral they are yet, they call all others dumb and stupid, for there beleifs. and ridicule others. just a thought

athiests only go around caling people stupid...


religious zealots go around killing...

u decide which is worse..

[ToxicAvenger]

Hi Toxy. 

From a biblical perspective in Genesis we see that Adam and Eve were created w/o sin.  Then when they sinned, sin entered the world and affected everything negatively.  Everything in the world has the taint of sin.  Even plants which we find incredibly beautiful today were probably once much, much more beautiful and food was much more delicious.

So when babies are born, there is sin present.  Now, do babies that die go to heaven?  I believe YES!  This is evidenced by King David's baby that died and 2 Samuel 12:23:  "...now that he is dead, why should I fast?  Can I bring him back again?  I will go to him, but he will not return to me."





As far as Mary being born free from sin, that is found nowhere in the bible.  It is one of the many things that the Catholic Church teaches that is not scriptural.



Donkey Kong, when you refer to the "catholic church" are you referring to the "Roman Catholic Church" or the "catholic church?"

thanx for the answer Stells   still have trouble buying the whole deal..

if my dad does something wrong...i should be punished??

[Necrosis]

athiests only go around caling people stupid...


religious zealots go around killing...

u decide which is worse..

well thats rational, how bout you do a census on all the murderers who are atheists, compared to each respective religion then decide which is worse. unless youve done this then your statement holds no water. moster stereotyping going on here. what about all the good christians and bad atheists. my statement was based on an observation about how stella, and loco and collossus never resort to name calling while some of the atheists on here bash the shit out of them. some dont, im just saying stella rarely seems to mouth off neither does loco.

[haider]

well thats rational, how bout you do a census on all the murderers who are atheists, compared to each respective religion then decide which is worse. unless youve done this then your statement holds no water. moster stereotyping going on here. what about all the good christians and bad atheists. my statement was based on an observation about how stella, and loco and collossus never resort to name calling while some of the atheists on here bash the shit out of them. some dont, im just saying stella rarely seems to mouth off neither does loco.

you're my hero bro

[ToxicAvenger]

moster stereotyping going on here.

you JUST noticed that...?


i salute your  powers of selective observation!

[Necrosis]

no never just noticed it, but when your trying to prove a point, using emotions and assumptions rarely makes for a good argument. your statement was not even worth typing. i gave you a logical answer, and then stella gave you a biblical answer. you never retorted i guess we answered your question. are you closer to the light

[sandycoosworth]

thanx for the answer Stells   still have trouble buying the whole deal..

if my dad does something wrong...i should be punished??

we get punished for the sins of our fathers but we also reap the rewards of what the jews and romans did to jesus(opening of the gates and all)


people actualyl believe this shit and live their "lives" accordingly

[ToxicAvenger]

well if anyone hear had actually read any arguments and thought about free will then youd have a decent answer or is this only for christian answers. like ive already said god creates seperation for it is the only way for true manisfestation of love, no control equals free choice. if he controlled us then life would be pointless and love or free will would not exist. because of free will and choice evil and good exist. that is why babies are born sick, storms occur, choices we make cause the effects such as sick babies etc.

i can elaborate if you want

so babies being born with sin is god giving us free will ¿

[Jeff Miller]

Stella is right.  Immaculate Conception is Roman Catholic dogma that came about in answer to questions about Christ's divinity, how he could be born without sin, etc.  It went that for Christ to be born without sin, his mother would need to be without sin, to include Original Sin.  So she had to be born without Original Sin.  Also, church leaders found biblical references to lend credence to this belief; she was hailed by the angel Gabriel as being "full of grace" (Luke 1:28) and she was assumed into Heaven without dying.

Eastern Orthodox Catholics and most Protestanst don't ascribe to this doctrine.  And it is unfair and foolish for anyone to broadly paint all Christians with the same brush.  There are HUNDREDS of different offshoots of Christianity.

And I'm failing to see where free will plays into this discussion.

[ToxicAvenger]

we get punished for the sins of our fathers but we also reap the rewards of what the jews and romans did to jesus(opening of the gates and all)


people actualyl believe this shit and live their "lives" accordingly

lotta people sitting around being punished and rewarded for nuttin...

[Necrosis]

so babies being born with sin is god giving us free will ¿

yes he doesnt give us free will, the world, the universe operates under laws etc he provides but he does not intervene. hence earthquakes are caused by natural forces or free will, they are also important for planetary health. but actions the mother and father make from free will effect the child, as does it grandparents etc. he does not choose what conditions you have, you have to fend for yourself, there is no purpose otherwise, or no experience.


your choces have outcomes, some can be labeled bad or good, but they are merely outcomes. our morality gives them pertinent labels. a baby born with an illness is a genetic mutation that happened by chance, or free will. if he controlled you, would he be just by giving someone more or less, also would real faith adn love be possible, no. if he made you love him then we are just robots, but we are not robots it is quite obvious we have free will. it is soft determined in terms of needs and wants but we can CHOOSE to override them.

[sandycoosworth]

this all boilds down to grasping for straws and $$

sheep (for instance teh xtians on this board) want to believe that they wont ever not exist, or that they will get to ssee their dead loved ones again, or that someone actually cares and more imprortantly forgives what a shit they have been for most of their lives(converts) ...

and religious authorities are there every step of the way to offer ear candy and collect $$

[ToxicAvenger]

yes he doesnt give us free will, the world, the universe operates under laws etc he provides but he does not intervene. hence earthquakes are caused by natural forces or free will, they are also important for planetary health. but actions the mother and father make from free will effect the child, as does it grandparents etc. he does not choose what conditions you have, you have to fend for yourself, there is no purpose otherwise, or no experience.


your choces have outcomes, some can be labeled bad or good, but they are merely outcomes. our morality gives them pertinent labels. a baby born with an illness is a genetic mutation that happened by chance, or free will. if he controlled you, would he be just by giving someone more or less, also would real faith adn love be possible, no. if he made you love him then we are just robots, but we are not robots it is quite obvious we have free will. it is soft determined in terms of needs and wants but we can CHOOSE to override them.

NOW THATS some good weed...i mean ya took the butterfly effect and really ran with it ...


god does not intervene but gives an innocent baby a sin for the hell of it 

[Necrosis]

And I'm failing to see where free will plays into this discussion.

becuase it is the correct critique based on logic. your story may be right but i dont believe it, although i am always open for change. i figure if it was the correct history and he gave us such open proof, why does everyone debate it, and why no more proof? so i like to use logic and philosophy to answer question, and free will applies strongly to the question of suffering.

[ToxicAvenger]

this all boilds down to grasping for straws and $$

sheep (for instance teh xtians on this board) want to believe that they wont ever not exist, or that they will get to ssee their dead loved ones again, or that someone actually cares and more imprortantly forgives what a shit they have been for most of their lives(converts) ...

and religious authorities are there every step of the way to offer ear candy and collect $$

how does it work in jewish faith?

r you pretty much guranteed a spot in heaven?