Roman Catholicism versus Biblical Christianity

[Butterbean]

I am a practising roman catholic from ireland. if ne one interested post me questions on this and ill answer as best i can.

Thanks Goudy! 

1)  Is it true that Roman Catholicism (RC) teaches that when you are baptized with water as a baby, you have received salvation?

2)  If so, how do you reconcile this w/the biblical scriptures that teach that belief in Jesus Christ as Savior is salvation?

[Butterbean]

Just ask yourself who the first pope was..

-Hedge

Who was the first pope Hedge?  And why do you consider him so?

[Ursus]

Stella, the RC church teaches that the only person to be born without sin was jesus. born to a virgin. when we are baptised we are being cleansed from that original sin through the holy spirt. similarly at confirmation at age 10/11 we are being recleansed and anointed with the holy spirit.

[Hedgehog]

Disagree ...the Catholic church is just a variation of Christianity.The most popular variation  .As previous posts have pointed out they have doctrines that are nowhere to be found in the Bible.Stuff like worshipping the virgin mary,easter, and christmas have their origins in Roman pagan worship.Just another example is the fact that priests are supposed to be celibate.Im pretty sure thats just a man made rule.It isnt even natural!

And dont get me started on the Crusades,the Inquistions,and the roles the Catholic church had to play in various wars.Just because its popular ,doesnt make it right..

You disagree with me.

Yet, this is what I wrote:

Simply because Catholicism is a form of Christianity.

And this is what you wrote:

Disagree ...the Catholic church is just a variation of Christianity.

I don't understand? To me it seems like you're in agreement?

-Hedge

[Hedgehog]

All other Christian branches have come from Catholicism.

Greek Othordox after the Great Schism.

Church of England from King Henry wanting divorce...

etc, etc, etc

Great post.

Short, but very clarifying.

-Hedge

[Hedgehog]

Who was the first pope Hedge?  And why do you consider him so?

Simon Peter.

Why? 

He's widely considered the first pope and one of the founders of Christianity.

-Hedge

[Butterbean]

Stella, the RC church teaches that the only person to be born without sin was jesus. born to a virgin. when we are baptised we are being cleansed from that original sin through the holy spirt. similarly at confirmation at age 10/11 we are being recleansed and anointed with the holy spirit.

That's interesting.  I had always heard that the RC church taught that Mary was born w/o sin also.  Good to hear they actually don't.


As for the baptism, are you saying that people water-baptizing a baby cleanses it from sin?  Does RC believe that an infant that dies before it has a chance to be baptized goes to hell?


What are the requirements for "confirmation?"

[Butterbean]

Simon Peter.

Why? 

He's widely considered the first pope and one of the founders of Christianity.

-Hedge

That is another difference between RC and the Bible. 





from: www.biblestudylessons.co m/cgi-bin/gospel_way/peter_as_pope.php 
 
Was the Apostle Peter the first Pope, the earthly head of the church according to the Bible? Was he the Chief Shepherd, the Supreme Pontiff, and Vicar of Christ? Is the Roman Catholic church the true church as proved by a succession of the Papacy since Peter? Does the Bishop of Rome have authority to declare church law? Does the Bible teach that the Papacy is the foundation of the church? What about celibacy? Should we bow to honor the Pope as the Holy Father?
Introduction:

Several religious groups teach as fundamental doctrine that Peter was the first earthly head and Chief Shepherd (pastor) of the church, and modern church leaders are his successors. Others claim that the Papacy is the foundation of the church. Consider this quotation:

"The Pope ... is the bishop of Rome and the Vicar of Christ on earth. He is the visible head of the whole Catholic Church ... Who was the first Pope? St. Peter, who was made Pope by Jesus Christ Himself ... Did Peter's authority die with him? No, it was handed down to a man named Linus, and after he died, it was handed down to another, and so on, during the past 2000 years ... Does Jesus require us to follow the Pope in matters of religion? Yes, because obedience and loyalty to the Pope are among the chief requirements of the Lord's plan for unity in His church" (A Catechism for Adults, by William Cogan, 1975 ed., pp. 55,56).
In this study we want to see what the Bible says about this doctrine. If it is true, as important as it is, we will surely find it in the Bible.

We have no personal ill-will toward any, nor do we want to misrepresent anyone. But we do urge people to seek for truth with an open mind. "Put your own selves to the test, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves" (2 Corinthians 13:5). To do this we must "study the Scriptures every day to see whether these things are so" (Acts 17:11). No one should fear to examine his beliefs according to the Bible.

(Note: all Scripture quotations will be from the St. Joseph New Catholic Edition of the Holy Bible - Confraternity Edition. All other quotations are from officially recognized Roman Catholic sources.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part I. Did Jesus Establish the Office of Pope?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously Peter could be Pope only if Jesus authorized the existence of that office. So let us consider what Jesus' word says.

A. The Office & Qualifications of the Pope
Are Nowhere Mentioned in the Scriptures.
The Bible specifically names several offices in the church and describes the work and qualifications of those who hold that office.

Office  Named  Qualifications  Work 
Apostles  Eph. 4:11; Matt. 10:2-4;
Luke 6:13-16  Acts 1:21-26;
2 Cor. 12:11,12  Eph. 3:3-5;
Acts 10:39-41 
Elders or Bishops  Phil. 1:1; Acts 14:23;
Eph. 4:11  1 Tim. 3:1-7;
Titus 1:5-9  Acts 20:28;
1 Peter 5:1-3 
Deacons  Phil. 1:1  1 Tim. 3:8-13  Acts 6:1-6 

The Bible contains several passages where the office of Pope ought to be mentioned, if it existed. Ephesians 4:11,12 and 1 Corinthians 12:28 list various officers and workers in the church, but the office of Pope is not mentioned. Why not?

Paul wrote several letters to and from Rome, naming many people there (Rom. 16; Col. 4:7-14; 2 Tim. 4:9-22; Philem. 23,24). If Peter was Pope in Rome, surely Paul would have mentioned him. But Paul mentions neither Peter nor anyone else as being Pope.

Who can imagine someone today writing official letters to or from the church in Rome, listing the officers of the Catholic Church, giving all this information about the work and qualifications of lesser officers, but never mentioning the Pope? If the office of Pope was established by Jesus, why does the New Testament fail to mention it?

B. The Bible Says Jesus Is the Head of the Church.
The Pope is believed to be the head of the church, but note:

Ephesians 1:22,23 - Jesus is head over all things to the church (cf. Col. 1:18). What is there left for a Pope to be head of?

Ephesians 5:22-24 - A husband is head of his wife as Jesus is head of the church. But for a wife to submit to two husbands is adultery (Rom. 7:2,3). So for the church to submit to two heads (Jesus and the Pope) would be spiritual adultery.

Matthew 28:18-20 - Christ has all authority in heaven and on earth. He is the one lawgiver (James 4:12). To claim that the Pope may issue religious laws is to deny the unique power of Jesus.

The Bible plainly states that Jesus is Head of the church. He is the one Lord in the one body (church). There cannot be two Lords any more than there could be two Gods (Eph. 4:4-6). Bishops (even from Rome) are forbidden to lord it over the flock (1 Peter 5:1-3).

C. The Bible Says Jesus Is the Church's Foundation.
"The primacy of St. Peter was ... an essential part of Christ's church, the rock on which it was built ... The House of God will always need its foundation" (The Question Box, Bertrand Conway, 1929 Edition, pp. 153,154).

Hence, the authority of Popes is said to be the foundation of the Catholic Church. But the Bible says:

God's church has a divine foundation.
1 Corinthians 3:11 - There can be no foundation other than Jesus.

1 Peter. 2:3-8 - Peter himself taught that Jesus is the chief cornerstone on which the church is built. [Cf. Acts 4:10-12.]

Matthew 16:13-18 - This passage is often used to try to prove Peter is the foundation of the church (Catechism, p. 56; Question Box, p. 146). But the passages already studied prove that Jesus, not Peter or the Pope, is the foundation of the church. Matthew 16. actually confirms this truth.

The context (v13,15,16) is not discussing who Peter is nor what his position is, but who Jesus is and what His position is. The passage does not exalt Peter; it exalts Jesus. Jesus does not confess Peter; Peter confesses Jesus.

The verse is not saying Peter is the rock on which the church is built, but rather it contrasts Peter's name (Greek PETROS, masculine - a piece of rock) to the rock on which the church would be built (Greek PETRA, feminine - a solid ledge of rock).

Jesus often compared Himself to inanimate objects - a temple (John 2:18-22), a door (John 10:7), a vine (John 15:1-11). Here He compares Himself to a rock, a name often used for Deity in the Old Testament (Psa. 31:3; 71:3; 89:26ff; 18:2f,32f).

The foundation of the church is not Peter. It is the truth that Peter had just confessed - that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God (v16). This is confirmed by the context and by other Scriptures. To say Peter is the foundation would be to put a man in the place of Deity!

The lives of Peter and of the Popes make them entirely unfit to be the foundation of Jesus' church.
Consider some great sins in the life of Peter.

* Immediately after talking about the foundation of the church, Christ rebuked Peter saying: "Get behind me, satan, thou art a scandal to me; for thou dost not mind the things of God, but those of men" (Matthew 16:21-23).

* Peter denied Jesus 3 times, even with curses and swearing (Matthew 26:69-75).

* Jesus rebuked Peter's lack of faith (Matthew 14:22-31).

* Peter was hypocritical and disobeyed the gospel (Galatians 2:11ff).

[Hedgehog]

That is another difference between RC and the Bible. 

You can quote bible sites all you want.

Doesn't change the fact that Catholicism is the oldest form of Christianity, the original form if you will, and that all forms of Christianity developed from it.

You're trying to make a case of the fact that Peter wasn't suited to be Pope. It's not the issue. He was the Pope, whether you think he was suited for it or not. And the church you are a member of, as incredible it sounds, has roots from that very church.

Why?

Again, all Christian churches stems from Catholicism. That is a fact. The reason the churches are no longer Catholic, are because of differences.

A few interesting notes on Martin Luther, the man who created protestantism, the kind of Christianity you confess to:

Martin Luther had no problems with the Pope being head of the church to begin with, it was the sale of indulgences he had a problem with, and he thought only God could pardon sins.

Martin Luther was excommunicated. Had he not been, the protestant and reformist churches would probably not have surfaced.

Martin Luther was a very interesting character.

-Hedge

[Saxon]

That's interesting.  I had always heard that the RC church taught that Mary was born w/o sin also.  Good to hear they actually don't.

Actually the Roman Catholic faith does believe that Mary was also born free from original sin, it was declared by a Pope in the late 19th century.

[Ursus]

That's interesting.  I had always heard that the RC church taught that Mary was born w/o sin also.  Good to hear they actually don't.


As for the baptism, are you saying that people water-baptizing a baby cleanses it from sin?  Does RC believe that an infant that dies before it has a chance to be baptized goes to hell?


What are the requirements for "confirmation?"

it is true that our church teaches that mary gave birth when a virgin. there is a feast day known as the feast of the immaculate conception.

confirmation is one of the 7 sacraments it was the 4th i recieved after baptism, first confession, communion and confirmation. it is when u are recognised as a full member of the catholic church and the holy spirt is said to come uon us. sybloically these are represented by the catholic church as doves and tongues of fire.

www.catholic.org is a good site.

im not 100pc about the baby thing. however a child is christend a few eeeks after being born. this is typically done in the church and all as part of a service with water candles etc. however anyone full member of the catholic church (ie sumone who has been confirmed) can baptise a child in an emergency using if needs be thir thumb and spittle. this can often happen in hospital.

i enjoying this thread ne more questions stella. i doubt it teaches the child will not go to heavean.

[loco]

Catholic comes from the Greek, KATHOLIKOS, which means "throughout the whole, or universal," and was used as a general reference to the entire Christian church until the reformation period. However, as early as the fourth century, the Catholic church began adopting traditions and beliefs which were never a part of original Christianity as seen in the New Testament. It appears that many of these new ideas first emerged from the era of the Roman Emperor, Constantine who ruled from 313 to 337 A.D.


In contrast to his predecessor, Diocletian, who had vowed to destroy Christianity in 303, Constantine claimed a conversion to Christianity and virtually instituted it as the empire's religion by his Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. This proclamation of religious freedom brought about many positive changes for the church, and was certainly a much welcomed turnabout from the years of brutal persecution. But instead of converting completely from the old practices of paganism, this and the new Christian religion were somewhat mingled together. Since an Emperor was viewed as a god by pagan standards, and he already held the lifelong position of "Pontifex Maximus," chief priest of the pagan state religion, Constantine felt it only proper that he should also claim a high position of leadership in the church — he also authorized many of his secular officials as church leaders. This merger of a pagan, Christian and political hierarchy, produced a diluted spiritual leadership for the church, and its beliefs and doctrines thereafter became increasingly infected with a strange combination of traditions and pagan beliefs.


The Christian creed adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 (called for and presided over by Constantine) was theologically encouraging, but it was also in this era that the church first accepted such unscriptural ideas as praying for the dead, the veneration of angels and dead saints, the use of images, and the celebration of daily mass. This regression from scripture continued through the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., where the worship of Mary became an official doctrine of the church, referring to her as the "Mother of God." And only nine years later in 440, Leo, bishop of Rome was the first to declare himself the successor of St. Peter and laid claim to the role of Universal Bishop, a forerunner of papal authority. While this was widely disputed, Leo commanded that all should obey him on the false notion that he held the primacy of St. Peter.


Later, Leo's successor, Gregory I, was given the title of universal "Pope" (Latin "papas" or father) by the wicked emperor Phocas in 604. He refused the title, however his successor, Boniface III, did accept it and became the first in a long line of successors to be recognized as Pope. Under the new papal authority in the seventh century, many more new beliefs were added to the church, such as the unbiblical doctrine of purgatory (593), the required use of Latin in prayer and worship (600), and prayers said to Mary, dead saints and angels (600).


One reason many of these strange ideas gained accepted credibility was because the Bible was not readily available to the common people, either in print or in translation. They had no idea what the Bible really taught. It was restricted only to priests trained to interpret it as it pleased the church hierarchy. Further, the popes claimed the authority to speak under the unique utterance of "Ex Cathedria," which in effect meant divine inspiration. Their proclamations and decrees carried supreme authority to interpret or overrule Holy Scripture, and to invent whatever doctrines or practices they wished.


The next four hundred years saw many more new beliefs added to the church: The ritual kissing of the Pope's foot (709), temporal (political) power granted to the Pope (750), worship of the crucifix, images and relics (786), holy water mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest (850), the worship of St. Joseph (890), the establishment of the college of Cardinals to elect the popes (927), the baptism of bells (965), the canonization of dead saints (995), and prescribed fastings on Fridays and during lent (998).


A break in the church occurred in 1054 over a relatively trivial issue, when the eastern church condemned the western church for the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist. The dispute resulted in Rome's attempt to excommunicate Michael Cerulararious, the Patriarch of Constantinople, who in turn, sought to excommunicate Pope Leo IX of Rome. From that time, the western (Roman Catholic) church and the eastern (Greek Orthodox) churches developed separately — each with their distinct traditions. A classic example of a church split.


As the Roman Catholic Church continued with new independence, it added even more remarkable doctrines that were not taken from the Bible. In 1079, Pope Gregory VII declared the shocking decree of celibacy for the priesthood. Peter the Hermit invented the technique of praying with rosary beads in 1090. A few of the other beliefs and practices authorized by the church were: The inquisition of alleged heretics (1184), the sale of indulgences (1190), the doctrine of transubstantiation (1215), auricular confession of sins to a priest instead of to God (1215), adoration of the wafer (1220), the forbidding of Bible reading by laity (1229), the scapular (1251), the forbidding of sharing the communion cup with laity (1414), the establishment of purgatory as an irrefutable dogma (1439), and the composition of the "Ave Maria" (1508).


Up to this point, the somewhat similar Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches were the two main institutions representing Christianity. But in the sixteenth century, events occurred which would bring a worldshaking reformation of Christian thought. A Catholic monk and professor of theology named Martin Luther, became convinced that the Bible was the only true authority in matters of spiritual instruction, and sought to reform the church with this new insight and to expose its errant doctrines...

...In 1529, at the Diet of Speyer, the Emperor Charles V attempted to smother Luther's movement by force, but some of the German state princes stood up in protest. Thus, because of their protest, the movement began to be known as the "Protestants." What had originally been intended to bring reform to Catholicism from within, was now an ousted reformation, forced to split from the original body...

..This is a brief explanation of the historical origin of Catholics and Protestants, and as you can see, the disparities are many. But in the simplest of terms, the basic difference between them is the authority they look to for their beliefs. The Protestant Church generally embraces the Bible as its sole source of authority and faith, while the Catholic Church views the post-biblical traditions of the church and its Popes to have more than equal authority with scripture.
http://www.victorious.org/chur40.htm

[Ursus]

a note of interest if for example if a catholiuc such as my self was in holiday in an orthodox country liek greece then we are able to attend an orthodox mass instead of a traditional catholic mass. similarly oif a greek was here on holiday then they could similarly attend a catholic service.

celibacy is reletively recent in the catholic church. also women not beinmg able to say mass is a concern here in ireland as there are a real shortage of priests. should nuns be ablke to perform mass etc.....? perhaps.

i think that the celibacy could perhaps be dropped however this may interfere with the job as he would have other commitments and is not soley married to god so to speak. also i believe nuns should be able tpo perfom mass etc. we can keep traditions the same and beliefs the same however it i smecessary to evole as society does too

[loco]

a note of interest if for example if a catholiuc such as my self was in holiday in an orthodox country liek greece then we are able to attend an orthodox mass instead of a traditional catholic mass. similarly oif a greek was here on holiday then they could similarly attend a catholic service.

celibacy is reletively recent in the catholic church. also women not beinmg able to say mass is a concern here in ireland as there are a real shortage of priests. should nuns be ablke to perform mass etc.....? perhaps.

i think that the celibacy could perhaps be dropped however this may interfere with the job as he would have other commitments and is not soley married to god so to speak. also i believe nuns should be able tpo perfom mass etc. we can keep traditions the same and beliefs the same however it i smecessary to evole as society does too

Goudy,
Thanks very much for your good attitude, feedback and input!  I'm so glad that this thread has not turned into a war between Roman Catholics and Protestants!  That's not what I want.

[a_joker10]

In our rural areas.
We have Orthodox Ukrainians that will attend Catholic services and vise versa. This is mainly due to to few Ukrainian tradition churches.

The movement of Ethiopian orthodox and gnostic Egyptian churches, where around earlier than the catholic church and were started through the first round of missionaries, by Paul.

As a protestant Lutheran, I have followed many traditions that are still included in the Catholic service were they have been dropped by other denominations. Anglicans also have their own rules as well.

[Ursus]

Thought id give a little insight into a typical vigil/sunday service in catholicism.

basically its 30mins long (well in my parish) most are longer our priest doesnt waffle and gets straight to the point.

At the start we are welcomed wioth very short prayers.
Then we have the first reading
followed by 3-4 prayers and a short response.
then a second reading
followed by the gospel acclimation (very short prayer)
then the gospel.
Then we would have a sermon or preaching this is the priests own choice. however i feel that many people lose interest if the priest is inconceise and waffles. in my church its maybe 5 mins max.
then we have the collection.
then the most sacred part of teh service the consecration...this is where transubstanbtiation happens and the bread and whine is blessed and mimics what happened at the last supper.
then we recieve communion
we get a final blesisng and thats it

any questions peeps

[Butterbean]

Goudy,
Thanks very much for your good attitude, feedback and input!  I'm so glad that this thread has not turned into a war between Roman Catholics and Protestants!  That's not what I want.

Ditto that.

followed by the gospel acclimation (very short prayer)
then the gospel.


any questions peeps

Thanks Goudy 

Could you please post the "gospel acclimation" prayer?

And when your church presents the gospel, what all does that involve?  Specifically, do they mention Christ dying for our sins and then living again and believing on Him brings salvation?  Is Mary mentioned during the gospel message?

[benjamin pearson]

Stella,

Some of those arent true, Pergatory was done away with years ago. Its no longer true that only a priest can grant forgiveness of sins, although Catholics are encouraged to go confession regularly. An it is believed that Mary is devine since she was the only one (other than Christ) with out sin.

XOXOX

your buddy

Humungous

Untrue.... purgatory is still a belief of the catholic church

[benjamin pearson]

Thanks Goudy 

Could you please post the "gospel acclimation" prayer?

And when your church presents the gospel, what all does that involve?  Specifically, do they mention Christ dying for our sins and then living again and believing on Him brings salvation?  Is Mary mentioned during the gospel message?

A common misconception of the Catholic church is that it worships mary...... This is untrue...... When we "pray to Mary" as some call it we are asking mary to interceed for us and ask Jesus for what we are praying for

[loco]

A common misconception of the Catholic church is that it worships mary...... This is untrue...... When we "pray to Mary" as some call it we are asking mary to interceed for us and ask Jesus for what we are praying for

Hey benjamin!  Can you answer some questions about that?

Do Catholics believe that Mary is just like GOD, almighty, knowing all, being everywhere at the same time?  Can she hear and understand millions of prayers in many different languages from all over the world at the same time?  How does that work?

[Butterbean]

A common misconception of the Catholic church is that it worships mary...... This is untrue...... When we "pray to Mary" as some call it we are asking mary to interceed for us and ask Jesus for what we are praying for

How do you feel about these scriptures:

1 Tim 2:5  

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."



Deuteronomy 18:10-12

'Let no one be found among you ... who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord'

[benjamin pearson]

Hey benjamin!  Can you answer some questions about that?

Do Catholics believe that Mary is just like GOD, almighty, knowing all, being everywhere at the same time?  Can she hear and understand millions of prayers in many different languages from all over the world at the same time?  How does that work?

Mary is not seen as a God but rather a mediator between man and God....... When I was first being brought up in the church it was explained to me this way...... Would Jesus be more inclined to do the will of you a sinner, or of his own mother??? So when you think about it we are asking Mary to ask God something which is important to us and askiung her to join us in prayer for our intention

[loco]

Mary is not seen as a God but rather a mediator between man and God....... When I was first being brought up in the church it was explained to me this way...... Would Jesus be more inclined to do the will of you a sinner, or of his own mother??? So when you think about it we are asking Mary to ask God something which is important to us and askiung her to join us in prayer for our intention

Yes, I was told that too at school, by friends, etc.  But they never answered the question that I asked you.  How does Mary go about hearing millions of prayers in different languages from all over the world at the same time, day and night.  Only GOD can do that.  Did they ever explain that part to you?

[benjamin pearson]

IMO Mary was afforded these graces from God...... Jesus said to St. John Behold thy son which symbolizes Mary as the mother to mankind......

[loco]

IMO Mary was afforded these graces from God...... Jesus said to St. John Behold thy son which symbolizes Mary as the mother to mankind......

Ask a priest the same questions I've asked you.  A Catholic priest said that only GOD has those characteristics, only GOD is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.  Only GOD can hear and answer all those prayers in all those different languages, all at the same time.  When asked how can Mary do this, the priest said that GOD receives the prayers to Mary, then translates them, one at a time, so she can understand them.  The priest was then told "If that's they case, then we should go straight to GOD and skip Mary."  The priest had nothing to say to that. 

Ask and see if you get a different answer.