Anti-smoking law challenged

[Dos Equis]

Posted on: Wednesday, January 31, 2007
Anti-smoking law challenged

By Ken Kobayashi and Rod Ohira
Advertiser Staff Writers

The new state law banning smoking in bars, restaurants and other places to protect people from secondhand smoke is being challenged by a group of bar owners.

The Hawaii Bar Owners Association filed a Circuit Court lawsuit Tuesday contending that the law that went into effect Nov. 16 violates the state constitution by taking away business from the association's members without providing them "just compensation."

In addition, the suit said the law is too vague in violation of the constitution.

The suit is against the state and the Department of Health. It asks for a court order prohibiting the state from enforcing the law and a declaration that the statute is unconstitutional.

State Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said the state is not the first to enact such a law, which protects "everyone from the health risks of tobacco smoke."

"There have been challenges to this law in the past in other states, and none of them has been upheld," she said.

Fukino declined to comment further until she thoroughly review the lawsuit, health department spokeswoman Janice Okubo said.

Hawai'i's law, considered one of the toughest of its kind in the country, bans smoking in establishments where food and liquor are served, including bars and restaurants, and within 20 feet of their doorways or windows. The ban also covers workplaces and enclosed and semi-enclosed public areas.

Penalties include $100 for a first offense for a business; $200 for a second offense and $500 for each subsequent offense. Individuals will be fined $50.

The association is described on its Web site as a nonprofit organization comprised of owners of licensed liquor establishments in Hawai'i.

The lawsuit said association members relied heavily on customers who smoke. But after the law was adopted, the number of patrons "dropped off dramatically and (the members') resulting income has been drastically reduced," the suit said.

Bert Nishimura said in an interview Tuesday that he has cut back his visits to the Aku Bone Lounge & Grill in Kaka'ako from five times a week to twice a week because "basically, I can drink at home and smoke at the same time.

"Smoking and drinking just go hand in hand at a bar," said Nishimura, 49. "It's hard to go outside (to smoke), especially when it's raining."

Nathan Soong, 61, a maintenance worker at the lounge at 1201 Kona St., said he was cited recently for smoking inside after closing time, although he was the only person in the bar.

"Seriously, it's a great law but I believe it should be left up to the discretion of the owner whether or not smoking should be allowed in a bar," Soong said. "It's hard for a person to order and enjoy a beer and have to go outside to smoke. By the time he gets back, the beer is warm.

"Also women are afraid to leave their drinks for safety reasons. I think it has affected business, 20 to 25 percent."

Christy Miyashiro, manager of Exotic Nights on Halekauwila Street, said business is slower than usual but does not know how much the smoking ban has had to do with it. "It's too early to tell," she said.

Miyashiro said a lot of customers have complained about going outside to smoke. She added that most of the nightclub's employees and dancers smoke.

The lawsuit said the law is unconstitutional because it damages the private property of the association members without providing them with compensation.

The suit also said the law is invalid because "it does not give a person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited and has not provided explicit standards for the (Department of Health) to apply it to avoid arbitrary and/or discriminatory enforcement."

In addition, the suit said attempts to enforce the law against individuals who smoke in bars have not resulted in any arrests. The reason, the suit said, is that police require that a person be in the act of smoking before they issue a citation.

"Thus, enforcement attempts have been disruptive to plaintiff's members and have severely hampered business," the suit said.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070131/NEWS20/701310383/1001

[ToxicAvenger]

hear! hear!

if i own a buziness i wanna friggin decide how i wana run my own damn buziness..

if ya dont smoke..dont come to my bar...

[Hedgehog]

Trust me, the non-smoke law will be a blessing for those bars.

It has been great for every state or community that introduced it.

Here in Sweden, all the bars predicted big drops with the non-smoke law.

Instead, people just started to consume more alcohol, and their employees had better health. Everyone's a winner, since you don't smell like shit when you get home.

Hopefully, the Hawaii bar owners will come to their senses, or at least the legislators won't listen. Because the bar owners will get better business because of it.

-Hedge

[youandme]

Can they show a measurable drop in revune from the smoking ban? I don't think I read that in there. But maybe they should accept when bar owners install one of those ventilation systems. I was at a bar, it had a ventilation system and it would purify the air, and drag up the cigg smoke.Nah just ban it

[Diesel1]

Trust me, the non-smoke law will be a blessing for those bars.

It has been great for every state or community that introduced it.

Here in Sweden, all the bars predicted big drops with the non-smoke law.

Instead, people just started to consume more alcohol, and their employees had better health. Everyone's a winner, since you don't smell like shit when you get home.

Hopefully, the Hawaii bar owners will come to their senses, or at least the legislators won't listen. Because the bar owners will get better business because of it.

-Hedge

The same happened in Scotland and Ireland. They thought they would lose trade, but infact just the opposite has happened since the ban began.

The ban in England starts in June or July. I don't think anyone really cares that much about it tbh. It's gonna happen so why bitch about it.

[Hedgehog]

The same happened in Scotland and Ireland. They thought they would lose trade, but infact just the opposite has happened since the ban began.

The ban in England starts in June or July. I don't think anyone really cares that much about it tbh. It's gonna happen so why bitch about it.

I wonder if these bar owners ever thought about: "gee, howz about we ask colleagues who's experienced this"?

Not the sharpest tools in the box, evidently.

-Hedge

[Diesel1]

I wonder if these bar owners ever thought about: "gee, howz about we ask colleagues who's experienced this"?

Not the sharpest tools in the box, evidently.

-Hedge

Nearly every fucker smokes in Scotland and Ireland so the landlords were right to fear the worst. As it happens it all turned out good for them

[Dos Equis]

Trust me, the non-smoke law will be a blessing for those bars.

It has been great for every state or community that introduced it.

Here in Sweden, all the bars predicted big drops with the non-smoke law.

Instead, people just started to consume more alcohol, and their employees had better health. Everyone's a winner, since you don't smell like shit when you get home.

Hopefully, the Hawaii bar owners will come to their senses, or at least the legislators won't listen. Because the bar owners will get better business because of it.

-Hedge

They will come to their senses when they lose this lawsuit, including the appeal. 

[Diesel1]

The French ban on smoking started today...

A ban on smoking in public spaces in France has come into effect, a major cultural shift in a country famous for its smoky cafes and cigarette-puffing intellectuals.

The country's 15 million smokers will be banned from lighting up in workplaces, schools, airports, hospitals and other "closed and covered" public places.

 
More than 175,000 agents will enforce the ban, handing out fines of £44 for smokers and £88 for employers who look the other way.

In a year's time, the ban will extend to cafes and restaurants.

Damning statistics, such as 66,000 smoking deaths per year in France, are snuffing out the romantic myth surrounding the cigarette.

"A world is collapsing," writer Philippe Delerm wrote in a front-page ode to the cigarette in Le Monde newspaper, referring to the alluring image of the chain-smoking intellectual.

"Those were good times. But nobody thought about the collateral damage."

[Dos Equis]

Amazing that we have to actually ban smoking in hospitals. 

[240 is Back]

Amazing that we have to actually ban smoking in hospitals. 

yeah, but families of the people being treated (seeing as one-third of people who enter will die of that ailment, excluding maternity), are probably under some serious stress, hence the need to smoke.

yes, it's a gross habit and yes, it doesn't belong anywhere near a hospital, but some do use it to relieve stress.

As for the bar thing, they banned smoking in bars down in FL and about a third of the local establishments in my county closed within a year.  It sucked.  We used to earn 600 to 1000 a night for playing, it dropped to 300 to 400, which totally completely sucks.  You've gotta recall that people who spend their nights at bars are usually smokers, and most of them CANNOT drink without a cigarette.  In extreme weather areas where a patio isn't a solution, people just leave.

[Dos Equis]

yeah, but families of the people being treated (seeing as one-third of people who enter will die of that ailment, excluding maternity), are probably under some serious stress, hence the need to smoke.

yes, it's a gross habit and yes, it doesn't belong anywhere near a hospital, but some do use it to relieve stress.

As for the bar thing, they banned smoking in bars down in FL and about a third of the local establishments in my county closed within a year.  It sucked.  We used to earn 600 to 1000 a night for playing, it dropped to 300 to 400, which totally completely sucks.  You've gotta recall that people who spend their nights at bars are usually smokers, and most of them CANNOT drink without a cigarette.  In extreme weather areas where a patio isn't a solution, people just leave.

It's not just a gross habit.  It's a deadly habit.  I think we all pay for it one way or the other, through tobacco subsidies, health care costs, lawsuits, etc. 

Bad news about the local establishments in your county, but I find it hard to believe that banning smoking will result in the closure of a significant number of businesses across the board.  Like someone said earlier, people will just drink more.  The bars here in Hawaii will get over it.  They'll be fine.   

[240 is Back]

Bad news about the local establishments in your county, but I find it hard to believe that banning smoking will result in the closure of a significant number of businesses across the board.  Like someone said earlier, people will just drink more.  The bars here in Hawaii will get over it.  They'll be fine.   

I've spent the last 12 years playing smoky bars nearly every weekend, I hate it.  I've never smoked once in my life and initially, I LOVED the ban, as bars were clear for the first time.

But you cannot change people.  "People will just drink more" just isn't true.  No, they leave.  They go to shithole bars who don't follow the law.  Soon, no one follows the law.  They stop serving food, put in a 4-foot screen and call the bar a "patio", they find all sorts of loopholes.  Or they just take the chance they won't get caught.  If it's a matter of dealing with a fine, or going out of business anyway, many take the chance.  I say this because I've seen it over the last few years.  Bar owners take the risk and take the hit. 

[body88]

yeah, but families of the people being treated (seeing as one-third of people who enter will die of that ailment, excluding maternity), are probably under some serious stress, hence the need to smoke.

yes, it's a gross habit and yes, it doesn't belong anywhere near a hospital, but some do use it to relieve stress.

As for the bar thing, they banned smoking in bars down in FL and about a third of the local establishments in my county closed within a year.  It sucked.  We used to earn 600 to 1000 a night for playing, it dropped to 300 to 400, which totally completely sucks.  You've gotta recall that people who spend their nights at bars are usually smokers, and most of them CANNOT drink without a cigarette.  In extreme weather areas where a patio isn't a solution, people just leave.

I was a gm of a few large nightclubs in Boston. In Boston where the weather is as extreme as it gets in the winter, The bars/clubs are always packed, no matter if you can smoke or not (which you cant anymore). I would say club attendance rose due to the ban actually. If a bar/club owners attendance depends on smoking then they might wanna get a new line of work. Goodclubs and bars are packed regardless. That comes from capable promotion,good looking women and a good experience at the establishment. I would think that has more to do with a shitty demographic rather then a smoking ban.

There is a complete smoking ban in the city and nothing has changed. Just an observation, maybe it is dif down south in a smaller city.


All I know, is some douche has no right to blow a cloud of smoke in my face, if I am in a club and do not smoke. I used to hate when you could smoke in clubs, it was a shitty atmosphere for sure. You have this awesome venu all clouded with smoke, feel like shit when you get home, smel, get burned etc etc.

[Dos Equis]

I was a gm of a few large nightclubs in Boston. In Boston where the weather is as extreme as it gets in the winter, The bars/clubs are always packed, no matter if you can smoke or not (which you cant anymore). I would say club attendance rose due to the ban actually. If a bar/club owners attendance depends on smoking then they might wanna get a new line of work. Goodclubs and bars are packed regardless. That comes from capable promotion,good looking women and a good experience at the establishment. I would think that has more to do with a shitty demographic rather then a smoking ban.

There is a complete smoking ban in the city and nothing has changed. Just an observation, maybe it is dif down south in a smaller city.


All I know, is some douche has no right to blow a cloud of smoke in my face, if I am in a club and do not smoke. I used to hate when you could smoke in clubs, it was a shitty atmosphere for sure. You have this awesome venu all clouded with smoke, feel like shit when you get home, smel, get burned etc etc.

This is how I see it too.  According to the article, several other states have passed this ban.  I haven't heard of massive declines in business or bars having to close shop.  I doubt the ban has a significant impact on the bar business here.

I actually quit going to sports bars to watch games, because the last time I went I must have inhaled about a pack of cigarettes.   

[body88]

If your bar relies on smoking to remain open , that prob means there is a weak demographic, or it is a small bar frequented by older patrons.

[240 is Back]

yeah - i'm talking rock band clubs.  Booty clubs and sports bars, the goal is to get laid or see a game and eat.  when you go to see a rock band in a dive, it's all about drinking, rocking out, then maybe hitting on the 3 hot girls in the place.

[Stark]

Okay fellas, some of you may have heard that they enforced a smoking ban in Ireland not so far back...

So I talk first hand how this worked out for us.

First as soon as they finally made it public that at a certain time nobody would be allowed to smoke in any public place (including taxis and so forth) people started complaining left center and right...

In 2 month time we can close pubs because people will no longer go drinking
Small shops will have an extreme decrease and may have to close.
People complained that nobody can tell them what they do in their free time

And so forth...

What happend at the end is, that nobody gives a flying fart anymore, everybody is aware of the smoking ban, everybody knows not to smoke in cinemas in airplanes, people simply go outside when to smoke... no pub had to be closed and funny thing... even the smokers say now it's a lot nicer in the pubs since they don't smell of smoke, it has become just the norm and nobody complaints about it.

Fact is: People created a lot of "smoke" (sorry for the pun) for nothing.... but that's human nature.

[Hedgehog]

I've spent the last 12 years playing smoky bars nearly every weekend, I hate it.  I've never smoked once in my life and initially, I LOVED the ban, as bars were clear for the first time.

But you cannot change people.  "People will just drink more" just isn't true.  No, they leave.  They go to shithole bars who don't follow the law.  Soon, no one follows the law.  They stop serving food, put in a 4-foot screen and call the bar a "patio", they find all sorts of loopholes.  Or they just take the chance they won't get caught.  If it's a matter of dealing with a fine, or going out of business anyway, many take the chance.  I say this because I've seen it over the last few years.  Bar owners take the risk and take the hit. 

Too bad to see the law not being enforced in your area.

Because I believe that to be the problem.

If no bars offer smoking, then there won't be a drop IMO.

But I would also guess that over time, the enforcing will get better, and fewer and fewer clubs will try to find loopholes.

Doesn't do the law abiding clubowners that lost business any good though. It's a dilemma, no doubt. Better enforcement of the law is what I think would be best, because the ban only has winners, except for the tobacco industry.

-Hedge

[Dos Equis]

Suit was tossed. 

Updated at 9:53 a.m., Wednesday, April 11, 2007

Anti-smoking ban lawsuit thrown out by state judge

By KEN KOBAYASHI
Advertiser Courts Writer

A state judge this morning threw out a lawsuit by a group of bar owners challenging the state law banning smoking in bars and restaurants and within 20 feet of their entrances and windows.
Circuit Judge Sabrina McKenna granted the dismissal request by state lawyers, who argued that the Hawaii Bar Owners Association did not establish a valid claim that the law is unconstitutional.

She noted that although the group contends the law is unconstitutionally vague, none of its members has been cited for violating the law.

The judge, however, said the group may later refile the lawsuit.

Paul Yamamura, the group's lawyer, said they may refile their challenge if one of the members gets cited for violating the law.

Deputy Attorney General John Molay said he's confident that the state will be able to prevail even if a new lawsuit is filed.

The law went into effect Nov. 16 and is aimed at protecting people from secondhand smoke. Penalties include $100 for a first offense for a business and $50 for a smoker who violates the law.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Apr/11/br/br9435780126.html