Author Topic: More instead of less? (Read 1950 times)

thewickedtruth · « **on:** February 01, 2007, 08:03:17 AM »

With all these topics about arm size and training, I figured I'd throw in another thread. I've tried training my arms twice a month, only once a week, just one or two sets at a time, this and that. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Some people are telling me less is more. That doesn't seem right anymore. I'm going to start doing 6-8 sets twice a week for my biceps and triceps after chest and back days. By the end of the workout I should feel like I actually accomplished something.

pumpster · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:04:53 AM »

Agree with that, but i'd suggest doing bis/tris together by themselves at the start of a workout, when you're fresh. Try 6-8 intense sets, most to failure with no more than a minute between sets and moderate reps 8-12 for a while. Bottom line is to increase the reps or the weight in order to improve. Also try doing that three times a week for a while, and compare.

Also keep in mind that the general rule is 10 lb. weight gain = 1" arm gain. Protein supplements between meals.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:16:22 AM »

I like the feeling I get from doing them after chest and back. PLUS, I have work chest and back twice a week as it is, they just get the aftermath.

pumpster · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:18:12 AM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on February 01, 2007, 08:16:22 AM

I like the feeling I get from doing them after chest and back. PLUS, I have work chest and back twice a week as it is, they just get the aftermath.

Sure, but keep in mind that areas that you want to bring up have to be worked FIRST.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:41:01 AM »

Why first?

pumpster · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:48:44 AM »

Basic BB. Higher energy focused on the most important areas first. It's more effective to fully blast a couple of muscles per workout at most.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:49:15 AM »

Hit my tris' before I hit my back?

pumpster · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:50:22 AM »

No, arms done separately from torso.

bigguns175 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2007, 10:30:41 AM »

It looks more like you have a scheduling issue on your hands. If you could post what a typical week weightlifting schedule for you looks like, maybe we can be of more assistance.

For arms, I have found from experience, the more often you train them the bigger they get, 3 days being the most, but I typically only get in 2 times because I am hitting other muscle groups that stress them.

I think form for triceps is extremely inportant. When you do any tricep motion make sure to really squeeze and flex the muscle at the end of the range of motion.

For biceps the more exercises the better and a good pump. Wide arrange of exercises hit the barbell curls, to dumbbell alternate curls, to concentration, to dumbbells with hands pointed outward, to seated preacher, to one arm preacher, to ez curl on the cable...it goes on and on. I like to try and hit the bicep from as many angles and tensions possible, to really keep them guessing. Also, drop sets, supersets, and 21's seem quite benefitial in creating a great pump. So much variety with them have fun with it!

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2007, 10:59:36 AM »

Here is my typical week's split

Monday-chest/bi's
flat bench: 135x15x1,225x15x1,315x8x3,275x10x1
cable flyes: 60lbs for 3 sets to failure. I love the pump I get from cable flys after a good chest workout. I don't go heavy so I can really squeeze the muscles.

Dumbbell preacher curls: 60x10x3
Seated alternate hammer curls: 60x8x2
Low cable rope curls: 125x15x2

Tuesday-back/triceps
tbar rows: 90x12x1,225x12x1,315x10x1,225x12x1
hammer strength pull downs: 4 plates each side for 3 sets of 8
hammer strength high pulldowns: 3 plates per side for 3 sets of 10

closed grip benchpress: 135x10x1,315x10x3
french press: 225x10x2
overhead rope presses or whatever you call them: 125x10x2 is usually all I can handle

Wednesday-legs and shoulders
legpress: 450x15x1,900x10x1,1250x10x2,1100x10x1,900x10x1
hack squats: 3 sets of super slow 225 all the way to the floor for the stretch and burn
leg extensions: 3 sets of 100lbs per leg doing single leg raises until failure.

seated dumbbell raises all the way around: 35x10x2 for the front and side delts
seated military presses: 135x15x1,185x10x1,225x10x1 (all of these are to the top of my chest until the last heavy set which is a partial only past parallel) 275x6x1,185x12x1
rack shrugs: 135x10x1,315x10x1,405x10x1,500x8x1,405x10x1
low cable rope upright rows: 325x12x3
dumbbell shrugs: 125x10x3

Thursday-chest/bi's
incline benchpress: 135x10x1,225x10x1,315x8x2,225x10x1
cable flyes: 60lbs for 3 sets to failure and my chest is usually smoked by then.

seated alternating dumbbell curls: 60x8x3
seated alternating hammer curls: 60x8x3
hammer strength curls: 2 sets to failure with 80lbs per side. I work my arms unilaterally because from years of throwing a ball, i've developed one arm bigger than the other so I'm trying to keep them pretty even.

Friday-back and tri's
t-bar rows: same as tuesday
hammer strength bent over one arm rows: 3 sets of 8 with 5 plates per side
wide grip pull downs: 215x10x3

tri's-same as tuesday. All big, heavy movements so I can get my bench up and try to make them grow. :/

Saturday-shoulders and legs

I do the same things I did wednesday. It's mundane but all those exercises are the ones I can feel the muscles working the hardest with. $:-\$

bigguns175 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:46:42 AM »

My biggest concern here would be overtraining. I never train secondary antagonist muscles like chest/bi or back/tri, always stick to Chest/tri or Back/bi.

It just seems you blast your tris on chest as a secondary muscle being used and then before the muscle fibers are fully rebuilt you're breaking them down again with triceps the next day and then shoulders after that... Triceps never seem to get a rest. Biceps similar. You blast bi's and then do a back workout next day which requires a ton of bicep effort in contraction. It's counterproductive to your goal. Get an extra day of recovery in between or segment your workout plan so that you are not hitting them so often. It is like you are hitting your arms 4/5 times a week.

pumpster · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2007, 07:32:35 AM »

Quote from: bigguns175 on February 02, 2007, 06:46:42 AM

My biggest concern here would be overtraining. I never train secondary antagonist muscles like chest/bi or back/tri, always stick to Chest/tri or Back/bi.

It just seems you blast your tris on chest as a secondary muscle being used and then before the muscle fibers are fully rebuilt you're breaking them down again with triceps the next day and then shoulders after that... Triceps never seem to get a rest. Biceps similar. You blast bi's and then do a back workout next day which requires a ton of bicep effort in contraction. It's counterproductive to your goal. Get an extra day of recovery in between or segment your workout plan so that you are not hitting them so often. It is like you are hitting your arms 4/5 times a week.

As far as overtraining by hitting the same muscle on consecutive days, with a little thought you can configure the schedule to avoid that and still get enough rest. For example, by putting either a leg or rest day between related areas.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2007, 07:55:59 AM »

Okay that makes sense. I just don't ever seem to get a large enough pump on chest and back days. My arms never fill with blood or start to get sore the next day. The only problem is when I try to do bi's say after my back, I can't really ever work them with the weights I can when I do them on chest days. When I work them before my back, my back day suffers greatly. I set it up this way to give me the maximum amount of effort in each muscle. I get what you're saying about my split though. It does seem to be counter productive to a point. I could do chest/bi's, shoulders/legs, and back/tri's with a rest day after that and just start over right?

pumpster · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:03:59 AM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on February 02, 2007, 07:55:59 AM

Okay that makes sense. I just don't ever seem to get a large enough pump on chest and back days. My arms never fill with blood or start to get sore the next day. The only problem is when I try to do bi's say after my back, I can't really ever work them with the weights I can when I do them on chest days. When I work them before my back, my back day suffers greatly. I set it up this way to give me the maximum amount of effort in each muscle. I get what you're saying about my split though. It does seem to be counter productive to a point. I could do chest/bi's, shoulders/legs, and back/tri's with a rest day after that and just start over right?

Ya, whatever split works, is most effective in hitting the muscles hard as well as adequately recuperative. I would leave shoulders off of leg days though, if you really want a complete rest for other upper body muscles.

As far as getting sore, you should be able to get that at least some of the time. Reconsider the exercises you're doing, try new variations of what you're doing or new exercises until the most effective ones are found. Also ensure you're going to failure most of the time, to push the envelope and challenge the muscles. At other times try supersets, negatives, rest-pause reps, cheats, etc. to find what works.

Jeff Miller · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:08:00 AM »

I found I made good gains when I dedicated one day to arms. Started with triceps, then did biceps. Arms are about 19 inches now.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:24:10 AM »

I'm in the process of losing weight right now and finally adjusting to not having any carbs in my system. It's making the lifting more difficult at times but at the same time, I don't want to neglect anything. Why cut out the shouldes? Because they get hit on back and chest twice already? Isn't that the same thing we're discussing for the arms? This could be a good read for alot of people. I just don't feel, even after years of lifting, that my body responds well with working each body part once a week. It's the human body. It's capable of adapting and changing in spectacular ways. I look thicker and am stronger when I hit each body part twice a week instead of just once.

pumpster · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:37:47 AM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on February 02, 2007, 08:24:10 AM

I'm in the process of losing weight right now and finally adjusting to not having any carbs in my system. It's making the lifting more difficult at times but at the same time, I don't want to neglect anything. Why cut out the shouldes? Because they get hit on back and chest twice already? Isn't that the same thing we're discussing for the arms? This could be a good read for alot of people. I just don't feel, even after years of lifting, that my body responds well with working each body part once a week. It's the human body. It's capable of adapting and changing in spectacular ways. I look thicker and am stronger when I hit each body part twice a week instead of just once.

What i'm saying is, if you're concerned about resting the muscles some days, can always move the shoulder work to one of the other upper body days so that on leg days there's a complete rest of the upper body. Use the leg day just for thighs, calves, abs, etc.

For gains i've always believed in 2-3 times a week for each muscle.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:47:05 AM »

I could do front delts and side delts on chest day as well since they get hit during the chest work and do the rear delts and traps on back day.

Thinking about it now sounds like a great idea. It would give me a good days rest like you mentioned prior to my next benching day instead of going heavy on the shoulders and turning around the next day and trying to have another good chest day. It wrecks any kind of heavy pressing the second time around. Does that look better? Or should I just throw in a rest day after legs and keep going? I think If I drained the targeted areas of the shoulders on their respective days, I might see some good gains that way and still stay on my schedule.

Good idea or bad?

pumpster · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2007, 09:34:33 AM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on February 02, 2007, 08:47:05 AM

I could do front delts and side delts on chest day as well since they get hit during the chest work and do the rear delts and traps on back day. Thinking about it now sounds like a great idea. It would give me a good days rest like you mentioned prior to my next benching day instead of going heavy on the shoulders and turning around the next day and trying to have another good chest day. It wrecks any kind of heavy pressing the second time around. Does that look better? Or should I just throw in a rest day after legs and keep going? I think If I drained the targeted areas of the shoulders on their respective days, I might see some good gains that way and still stay on my schedule. Good idea or bad?

Either way; including them with chest/back sounds good since they're already being worked.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #19 on:** February 05, 2007, 07:09:39 PM »

today's routine went exactly like this.

chest: flat bench-135x10x1,225x8x2,315x8x3,365x1x1
standing cable flyes-60x15x3
biceps: seated dumbbell hammer curls-65x6x3
dumbbell preacher curls-60x10x2,65x8x1
reverse grip barbell curls-100x12x2
front/side deltsseated military presses- (After all that prior was actually easier than anticipated.)135x10x1,185x10x1,225x8x1
seated dumbbell front raises-45x8x2
cable laterals-70x10x2

I feel fantastic and strong even after all of that. I still even have a little bit of a pump. I'm going to try this for awhile and keep this thread going to see if I notice much increase doing it this way. The shoulders surprisingly had ALOT of strength in them prior to having done all the chest work. Unless I start drastically losing strength, I'm going to stick with it. Comments? For once I felt like I actually worked hard.