Author Topic: adonis and calories  (Read 32490 times)

Krankenstein

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2007, 07:10:13 AM »
The only thing that fuels the brain and muscles are Carbohydrates.

Actually Adam.....thats not true....the brain can use ketones for fuel:

Barry A Groves,
Independent researcher
OX7 6LP, www.second-opinions.co.uk

Send response to journal:  BMJ 2005; 331: 925-c

Re: We don't need to spend more on research into Alzheimer's disease

The declines in mental faculties with old age, which are becoming increasingly common, are accepted as sad and heartrending, but ‘normal’: an inevitable consequence of old age. But this attitude is quite wrong as this decline need never happen and should never happen. Senility and its associated conditions are yet more examples of modern diseases which are very rare in primitive society and which are entirely preventable in ours.

Alzheimer’s disease, which only really appeared in the last century, is an increasingly prevalent, age-related degenerative brain disorder in Western societies. In Alzheimer’s disease, neurons in the brain regions that control learning and memory functions (hippocampus and basal forebrain) are selectively vulnerable.

Studies of postmortem brain tissue from Alzheimer’s have provided evidence that the condition has similar causes to other diseases classed together under the 'Metabolic Syndrome'. Recent data suggest that this disease can manifest systemic alterations in energy metabolism (increased insulin resistance and deregulation of glucose metabolism, for example). Evidence is emerging that dietary manipulation can prevent this devastating brain disorder.

It is argued by some that the recent growth in numbers of people succumbing to Alzheimer’s disease may be because it is a disease of the elderly and people are living longer. But there may also be other reasons: dietary reasons.

For example: NIDDM is associated with a range of serious conditions, such as heart disease, stroke and blindness. But diabetes is also associated with a deterioration of memory, cognition, speech memory, working memory and visual-spatial skills. Recent research suggests that it could also lead to Alzheimer’s disease and to a general decline in cognitive functions. NIDDM is caused entirely by a carbohydrate-based, 'healthy' diet.

For nine years a research team followed 824 Catholic priests and nuns, 127 of whom had diabetes. One hundred and fifty-one of them went on to develop Alzheimer’s.[1]The study team found that those who had diabetes were 65 percent more likely to develop Alzheimer’s.

Researcher Zoë Arvanitakis found that insulin in the blood stimulates a protein called ‘tau’ which tangles brain cells into Alzheimer knots. But the actual causal factor is likely to be our ‘healthy’ diet as that is what stimulates the production of insulin and is also, of course, the cause of diabetes.

The low cholesterol we are all supposed to strive for is another likely cause. Corrigan and colleagues writing in 1991 about the relief of Alzh­eimer’s Disease, ask that ‘strategies for increasing the delivery of cholesterol to the brain should be identified’. They recommend increasing fat intake.[2]

The Framingham Study gave confirmation to Corrigan’s work when it examined the relationship between total cholesterol and cognitive performance.[3] Four to 6 years after a 16- to 18-year surveillance period, cognitive tests were administered consisting of measures of learning, memory, attention, concentration, abstract reasoning, concept formation, and organizational abilities. The researchers found a significant linear association between the level of blood cholesterol and measures of verbal fluency, attention, concentration, abstract reasoning, and a composite score measuring multiple cognitive domains. Participants with ‘desirable’ cholesterol levels of less than 5.2 mmol/L (200 mg/dL) performed significantly less well than participants with cholesterol levels higher than 6.25 mmol/L (240 mg/dL). Dr. Penelope K. Elias from Boston University said that ‘It is not entirely surprising that lower cholesterol levels were associated with moderately lower levels of cognitive function, given [that] cholesterol is important in brain function.’

A third avenue also involves increasing fat intake. Two prospective studies reported that Alzheimer’s disease is less prevalent among those who consume fish; and other reports have linked low levels of omega-3 fatty acids in the blood with Alzheimer’s disease. In an epidemiological study, Morris and colleagues in Chicago, Illinois, USA, reported that the number of cases of Alzheimer’s disease was 60 percent lower in people who consumed fish once a week compared with those who rarely or never ate fish.[4] Although fatty fish is recommended as part of a ‘healthy’ diet, it is difficult to comply if one is already full up with starchy foods.

Dietary treatment

The brain uses a disproportionately large amount of energy for its weight, and it normally needs to extract it directly from glucose as it is unable to use fatty acids or amino acids. However, the brain can use ketones which are derived from dietary fats. This is how it survives during periods of prolonged fasting and starvation.

During the 1990s, diet-induced high blood levels of ketones were found to be effective for treatment of several rare genetic disorders involving impaired use of glucose or its metabolic products by brain cells.[5] Another team also found that ketones protect neurons from a heroin analogue which induces Parkinson’s disease, and a protein fragment which accumulates in the brain of Alzheimer’s patients.[6] More than that, addition of ketones alone actually increased the number of surviving neurons from the hippocampus which suggests that ketones may even act as growth factors for neurons.

The low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet relies on ketone bodies to supply the bulk of the body’s energy needs. We know that ketogenic diets are very effective treatments for many other chronic degenerative medical conditions. The evidence is that Alzheimer’s disease may also be successfully treated and, more importantly, prevented with a low- carbohydrate, high-fat, ketogenic diet.


However, all current official dietary advice is that low- carbohydrate, high-fat diets are 'unhealthy'. That is demonstrably untrue, but until current dietary advice is seen for the disaster it really is, we can expect the incidence of diseases such as Alzheimer's to increase.

We don't need to spend more on research into Alzheimer's disease, just to consider the work already done -- and revise current dietary advice.

References

1. Arvanitakis Z, Wilson RS, Bienias JL, et al. Diabetes mellitus and risk of Alzheimer disease and decline in cognitive function. Arch Neurol 2004; 61: 661-6.

2. Corrigan FM, et al. Dietary supplementation with zinc sulphate, sodium selenite and fatty acids in early dementia of Alzheimer’s Type II: Effects on lipids. J Nutr Med 1991; 2: 265‑71.

3. Elias PK, Elias MF, D’Agostino RB, et al. Serum Cholesterol and Cognitive Performance in the Framingham Heart Study. Psychosomatic Medicine 2005; 67:24–30.

4. Morris MC, Evans DA, Bienias JL, et al. Consumption of fish and n- 3 fatty acids and risk of incident Alzheimer disease. Arch Neurol 2003;60:940-946.

5. VanItallie TB, Nufert TH. Ketones: metabolism’s ugly duckling. Nutr Rev 2003; 61: 327-41.

6. Kashiwaya Y, Takeshima T, Mori N, et al. D-b-Hydroxybutyrate protects neurons in models of Alzheimers and Parkinsons disease. PNAS 2000: 97: 5440-4.

benjamin pearson

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2007, 07:46:43 AM »
True but I think Adam is trying to point out the importance of carbohydrates.... they fuel more activity than protein but some bb eat 350 grams of protein a day...... its plain stupid

MisterMagoo

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2007, 07:51:44 AM »
i can't believe anyone would argue that the brain only uses carbs for fuel. ketogenic diets have been around for decades, i've done one myself. it's not great for getting shredded but for the first chunk of fat loss it's gold.

moreover, adam neglects all kinds of things in his BS "calorie is a calorie" theory. ignoring the fact that the macronutrients are treated VERY differently in the body (otherwise you could eat M&Ms all day and feel the same as if you stuck with lean hamburgers on wheat buns), he tosses out things like "insulin response" or "the difference between eating solids and liquids".

adumb has taken the hardline approach that nothing makes a difference, your body needs X calories in a day and as long as you eat 'em you're fine. try this experiment sometime. first thing in the morning, make an omelette with a few whole eggs, low fat cheese, veggies, then have a big glass of milk. count the calories and see how long it takes you to feel hungry again.

now do the same thing the next day, but drink pepsi for ALL those calories. caffeine free if you think that'll skew the results. see what happens.

dr.chimps

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2007, 07:55:52 AM »
Answer me Adonis. Why are carbohydrates not essential?
As a codicil to this, many cultures (Inuit & some South Pacific Islanders) whose diets were almost all protein have seen almost endemic pathologies with the introduction of carbs, albeit mostly shit foods.

/badly worded, and ignores the body's starvation instinct, i know, but you get my point

thisGuy

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2007, 08:57:17 AM »
Bump...

Can we have an answer that's not copied & pasted?

YoungBlood

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2007, 09:00:49 AM »
Actually, no I don't get your point. :-\

I simply asked Adam why carbs are essential. He's ignored or been unable to answer me. It's simple question, that I only want him to answer. If he can't answer it, it really throws the entire philosophy of "the Adonis Principles" out the window.

thisGuy

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2007, 09:03:07 AM »
Actually, no I don't get your point. :-\

I simply asked Adam why carbs are essential. He's ignored or been unable to answer me. It's simple question, that I only want him to answer. If he can't answer it, it really throws the entire philosophy of "the Adonis Principles" out the window.

Give him time to google for an answer.

This will help http://www.google.com/search?q=essential+carbohydrates

The Heckler

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2007, 09:20:51 AM »
Give him time to google for an answer.

This will help http://www.google.com/search?q=essential+carbohydrates

hahaha you have a whopping 15 posts and half of them make this joke about googling.  And all of them are anti-Team Adonis.  Monster gimmick account created for the sole purpose of stalking Team Adonis.  ::)

YoungBlood

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2007, 09:22:24 AM »
Heckler, you being one that was created by Adonis himself, for the sole purpose of being an Adonis Nut Hugger are accusing somebody of being on the other side?

That's rich. Or pathetic, depending on your take on it.

The Heckler

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2007, 09:27:02 AM »
Heckler, you being one that was created by Adonis himself, for the sole purpose of being an Adonis Nut Hugger are accusing somebody of being on the other side?

I am ???

thisGuy

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2007, 09:28:10 AM »
hahaha you have a whopping 15 posts and half of them make this joke about googling.  And all of them are anti-Team Adonis.  Monster gimmick account created for the sole purpose of stalking Team Adonis.  ::)

Taking the time to look at all my old post... Owned.

Why not answer the questions?

The Heckler

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2007, 09:30:17 AM »
Taking the time to look at all my old post... Owned.

Oh yes, it took SO MUCH time to glance at 14 posts.  ::)

natural al

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2007, 09:32:07 AM »
hahaha you have a whopping 15 posts and half of them make this joke about googling.  And all of them are anti-Team Adonis.  Monster gimmick account created for the sole purpose of stalking Team Adonis.  ::)

what's "team adonis"?
nasser=piece of shit

thisGuy

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2007, 09:33:43 AM »
Oh yes, it took SO MUCH time to glance at 14 posts.  ::)

I'm in your head like The Squadfather is in your colon.

Answer the questions adam....

MisterMagoo

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2007, 09:36:19 AM »
I'm in your head like The Squadfather is in your colon.

Answer the questions adam....

hahaha, heckler getting out-heckled. well done.  8)

YoungBlood

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2007, 09:42:27 AM »
what's "team adonis"?

The only people that back up that pathetic piece of shit we all know as "The True Adonis."
They're also one and the same, as Adonis. Gimmicks, in other words.

Rudee

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2007, 11:32:05 AM »
Protein "Thermogenesis" Myth

"Thermogenesis" or something that has a "thermogenic" effect on the body refers to anything that causes the temperature inside your body (sometimes your temperature on the skin is different from the temperature inside, your core temperature) to rise, to increase. Well, we all know from school that the average / normal core body temperature is 98.6 degrees. However, when your core temperature increases, even by just 1 or 2 degrees, it is said that this higher temperature causes the body to turn into a "furnace", raising the metabolism, which results in fat being burned.

Well, what does this have to do with building muscle mass and gaining weight? Well, one of the many reasons everyone and their mother seems to recommend eating a high protein diet is because of this "thermogenic" effect. People are under the misconception that you can gain a lot of muscle weight without gaining fat if you eat a high protein diet.

This is because protein DOES have a thermogenic effect on the body...........but not enough to make an impact! Here's where everyone is missing the point. Sure, protein causes the body to work harder to digest it, which causes the body's internal temperature to rise, but it is NOT enough to really make a dent in burning fat or preserving muscle mass.

Researchers at Arizona State University examined individuals that ate a high protein diet and compared them to another group that ate a high carb diet. What they found was that eating a high protein diet resulted in an average of 30 calories per meal being burned in digestion.

Read that again.......30 calories per meal. Whoop-tee, doo!!! 30 calories! Okay, then let's say you eat 5 meals a day. 30 calories per meal, 5 meals a day, that equals 150 calories. So, you would only be burning an extra 150 calories a day if you were to go on a high protein diet. Big deal!!!! 150 calories is 1 cup of milk. It's 2 eggs. It's half a candy bar. 150 calories isn't going to make any difference whatsoever in helping you gain weight, build muscle mass, or burn fat.

Everyone keeps saying, "Oh, but you can eat more protein and not gain any fat because of the thermogenic effect". Give me a break........150 calories.....I rather just cut out 1 can of soda a day and get the same effect!

Don't be fooled by the "high-protein" fans. They just want you to go out and spend your hard-earned money on their bucket of protein. If you are looking to gain weight and build muscle, concentrate on the overall calories.















CALORIES BURNED BY TALKING:Sitting while talking
Including talking on the phone  46 an hour.

hahahahahah


Adam

It's possible (most probable actually) that the study group who consumed protein got their protein via liquid supplementation (protein shakes).  If this was indeed the case I can understand the minimal thermogenic benefit.   Solid foods are far more thermogenic then liquid foods as the body does not require a lot of energy to break down a liquid protein drink compared to a piece of steak, or a chicken.   Solid foods produce a far better thermogenic benefit then liquids.

chainsaw

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2007, 11:39:28 AM »
I'll say this:  I was in the hospital for a digestive issue over the summer.  i was told that I was not to eat Red Meat for awhile cause it is so much harder to digest and your digestive system has to work very hard.  How can this not equate to the burning of calories during the digetive process?

Yes you are exactly right! 
Most are all show no go!

The True Adonis

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2007, 11:59:35 AM »
Actually, no I don't get your point. :-\

I simply asked Adam why carbs are essential. He's ignored or been unable to answer me. It's simple question, that I only want him to answer. If he can't answer it, it really throws the entire philosophy of "the Adonis Principles" out the window.

Such a poor argument.

Ok, lets do this then.

All Medicines are "Non-Essential", so lets stop the whole pharmeceutical production of drugs because they aren`t necessary to live.


How dumb can you really be?   Can you tell me why All Medicine is Non-
Essential?  See how dumb your question is?

The True Adonis

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2007, 12:00:51 PM »

Adam

It's possible (most probable actually) that the study group who consumed protein got their protein via liquid supplementation (protein shakes).  If this was indeed the case I can understand the minimal thermogenic benefit.   Solid foods are far more thermogenic then liquid foods as the body does not require a lot of energy to break down a liquid protein drink compared to a piece of steak, or a chicken.   Solid foods produce a far better thermogenic benefit then liquids.
The calories burned by consuming protein is minimal.  You would do better to watch TV for a few hours.

The True Adonis

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2007, 12:03:29 PM »
Actually Adam.....thats not true....the brain can use ketones for fuel:

Barry A Groves,
Independent researcher
OX7 6LP, www.second-opinions.co.uk

Send response to journal:  BMJ 2005; 331: 925-c

Re: We don't need to spend more on research into Alzheimer's disease

The declines in mental faculties with old age, which are becoming increasingly common, are accepted as sad and heartrending, but ‘normal’: an inevitable consequence of old age. But this attitude is quite wrong as this decline need never happen and should never happen. Senility and its associated conditions are yet more examples of modern diseases which are very rare in primitive society and which are entirely preventable in ours.

Alzheimer’s disease, which only really appeared in the last century, is an increasingly prevalent, age-related degenerative brain disorder in Western societies. In Alzheimer’s disease, neurons in the brain regions that control learning and memory functions (hippocampus and basal forebrain) are selectively vulnerable.

Studies of postmortem brain tissue from Alzheimer’s have provided evidence that the condition has similar causes to other diseases classed together under the 'Metabolic Syndrome'. Recent data suggest that this disease can manifest systemic alterations in energy metabolism (increased insulin resistance and deregulation of glucose metabolism, for example). Evidence is emerging that dietary manipulation can prevent this devastating brain disorder.

It is argued by some that the recent growth in numbers of people succumbing to Alzheimer’s disease may be because it is a disease of the elderly and people are living longer. But there may also be other reasons: dietary reasons.

For example: NIDDM is associated with a range of serious conditions, such as heart disease, stroke and blindness. But diabetes is also associated with a deterioration of memory, cognition, speech memory, working memory and visual-spatial skills. Recent research suggests that it could also lead to Alzheimer’s disease and to a general decline in cognitive functions. NIDDM is caused entirely by a carbohydrate-based, 'healthy' diet.

For nine years a research team followed 824 Catholic priests and nuns, 127 of whom had diabetes. One hundred and fifty-one of them went on to develop Alzheimer’s.[1]The study team found that those who had diabetes were 65 percent more likely to develop Alzheimer’s.

Researcher Zoë Arvanitakis found that insulin in the blood stimulates a protein called ‘tau’ which tangles brain cells into Alzheimer knots. But the actual causal factor is likely to be our ‘healthy’ diet as that is what stimulates the production of insulin and is also, of course, the cause of diabetes.

The low cholesterol we are all supposed to strive for is another likely cause. Corrigan and colleagues writing in 1991 about the relief of Alzh­eimer’s Disease, ask that ‘strategies for increasing the delivery of cholesterol to the brain should be identified’. They recommend increasing fat intake.[2]

The Framingham Study gave confirmation to Corrigan’s work when it examined the relationship between total cholesterol and cognitive performance.[3] Four to 6 years after a 16- to 18-year surveillance period, cognitive tests were administered consisting of measures of learning, memory, attention, concentration, abstract reasoning, concept formation, and organizational abilities. The researchers found a significant linear association between the level of blood cholesterol and measures of verbal fluency, attention, concentration, abstract reasoning, and a composite score measuring multiple cognitive domains. Participants with ‘desirable’ cholesterol levels of less than 5.2 mmol/L (200 mg/dL) performed significantly less well than participants with cholesterol levels higher than 6.25 mmol/L (240 mg/dL). Dr. Penelope K. Elias from Boston University said that ‘It is not entirely surprising that lower cholesterol levels were associated with moderately lower levels of cognitive function, given [that] cholesterol is important in brain function.’

A third avenue also involves increasing fat intake. Two prospective studies reported that Alzheimer’s disease is less prevalent among those who consume fish; and other reports have linked low levels of omega-3 fatty acids in the blood with Alzheimer’s disease. In an epidemiological study, Morris and colleagues in Chicago, Illinois, USA, reported that the number of cases of Alzheimer’s disease was 60 percent lower in people who consumed fish once a week compared with those who rarely or never ate fish.[4] Although fatty fish is recommended as part of a ‘healthy’ diet, it is difficult to comply if one is already full up with starchy foods.

Dietary treatment

The brain uses a disproportionately large amount of energy for its weight, and it normally needs to extract it directly from glucose as it is unable to use fatty acids or amino acids. However, the brain can use ketones which are derived from dietary fats. This is how it survives during periods of prolonged fasting and starvation.

During the 1990s, diet-induced high blood levels of ketones were found to be effective for treatment of several rare genetic disorders involving impaired use of glucose or its metabolic products by brain cells.[5] Another team also found that ketones protect neurons from a heroin analogue which induces Parkinson’s disease, and a protein fragment which accumulates in the brain of Alzheimer’s patients.[6] More than that, addition of ketones alone actually increased the number of surviving neurons from the hippocampus which suggests that ketones may even act as growth factors for neurons.

The low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet relies on ketone bodies to supply the bulk of the body’s energy needs. We know that ketogenic diets are very effective treatments for many other chronic degenerative medical conditions. The evidence is that Alzheimer’s disease may also be successfully treated and, more importantly, prevented with a low- carbohydrate, high-fat, ketogenic diet.


However, all current official dietary advice is that low- carbohydrate, high-fat diets are 'unhealthy'. That is demonstrably untrue, but until current dietary advice is seen for the disaster it really is, we can expect the incidence of diseases such as Alzheimer's to increase.

We don't need to spend more on research into Alzheimer's disease, just to consider the work already done -- and revise current dietary advice.

References

1. Arvanitakis Z, Wilson RS, Bienias JL, et al. Diabetes mellitus and risk of Alzheimer disease and decline in cognitive function. Arch Neurol 2004; 61: 661-6.

2. Corrigan FM, et al. Dietary supplementation with zinc sulphate, sodium selenite and fatty acids in early dementia of Alzheimer’s Type II: Effects on lipids. J Nutr Med 1991; 2: 265‑71.

3. Elias PK, Elias MF, D’Agostino RB, et al. Serum Cholesterol and Cognitive Performance in the Framingham Heart Study. Psychosomatic Medicine 2005; 67:24–30.

4. Morris MC, Evans DA, Bienias JL, et al. Consumption of fish and n- 3 fatty acids and risk of incident Alzheimer disease. Arch Neurol 2003;60:940-946.

5. VanItallie TB, Nufert TH. Ketones: metabolism’s ugly duckling. Nutr Rev 2003; 61: 327-41.

6. Kashiwaya Y, Takeshima T, Mori N, et al. D-b-Hydroxybutyrate protects neurons in models of Alzheimers and Parkinsons disease. PNAS 2000: 97: 5440-4.

Your brain can survive on just water for extended periods.  Would you recommend that as well?

Using Ketones for the brain is a poor choice.  AT least you can be assured no airline pilot or NASA employee would be allwed to use ketones to fuel the brain.   :)

The True Adonis

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2007, 12:07:17 PM »
i can't believe anyone would argue that the brain only uses carbs for fuel. ketogenic diets have been around for decades, i've done one myself. it's not great for getting shredded but for the first chunk of fat loss it's gold.

moreover, adam neglects all kinds of things in his BS "calorie is a calorie" theory. ignoring the fact that the macronutrients are treated VERY differently in the body (otherwise you could eat M&Ms all day and feel the same as if you stuck with lean hamburgers on wheat buns), he tosses out things like "insulin response" or "the difference between eating solids and liquids".

adumb has taken the hardline approach that nothing makes a difference, your body needs X calories in a day and as long as you eat 'em you're fine. try this experiment sometime. first thing in the morning, make an omelette with a few whole eggs, low fat cheese, veggies, then have a big glass of milk. count the calories and see how long it takes you to feel hungry again.

now do the same thing the next day, but drink pepsi for ALL those calories. caffeine free if you think that'll skew the results. see what happens.

As long as you get the USRDA you are fine.

Krankenstein

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2007, 01:01:59 PM »
Your brain can survive on just water for extended periods.  Would you recommend that as well?

Using Ketones for the brain is a poor choice.  AT least you can be assured no airline pilot or NASA employee would be allwed to use ketones to fuel the brain.   :)

Your brain may survive.....but its not the H20 thats fueling it.  I was merely pointing out that the brain has the capability of utilizing other sources for energy rather than carbohydrates.

As far as NASA or airline pilots being allowed....thats not true.  I do have patients in my office who are pilots with Southwest, NWA, and United who do follow a low carb approach to eating.  They are not getting 'keto-stripped' every now and then to make sure they are not using ketones for energy.

In any event...just wanted to point that out about the brain.

thisGuy

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2007, 01:18:57 PM »
Such a poor argument.

Ok, lets do this then.

All Medicines are "Non-Essential", so lets stop the whole pharmeceutical production of drugs because they aren`t necessary to live.


How dumb can you really be?   Can you tell me why All Medicine is Non-
Essential?  See how dumb your question is?

Are carbohydrates need or not?

YoungBlood

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Re: adonis and calories
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2007, 01:26:13 PM »
Such a poor argument.

Ok, lets do this then.

All Medicines are "Non-Essential", so lets stop the whole pharmeceutical production of drugs because they aren`t necessary to live.


How dumb can you really be?   Can you tell me why All Medicine is Non-
Essential?  See how dumb your question is?

You still have yet to answer the question you queer elf..... >:(