honor killin in britain: famly was getting too "westernized" for father

[Deedee]

Most do, however it is their culture... Are we to simply go around telling other complete societies how to live?

I think not... I don't think it's at all right, however, if that's the way the culture is, I have to respect their beliefs... I would think that those in Western societies should just be happy that they are not living there.

Well, you don't have to respect their beliefs at all, even if nothing can be done about it. But as a wise person once said, "the west has every right to defend her hardwon right of equality." This behavior doesn't have to be condoned in the west, just because it belongs to a culture that encourages the abuse of women in other, less enlightened countries.

Edit: I was paraphrasing. The correct quote is... "The West has every right to defend its character, including its hard-won principle of equality."

[BRUCE]

Most do, however it is their culture... Are we to simply go around telling other complete societies how to live?

I think not... I don't think it's at all right, however, if that's the way the culture is, I have to respect their beliefs... I would think that those in Western societies should just be happy that they are not living there.

I've got bad news for you - if you haven't seen the influx of Muslims into Western civilisations - that still believe they can treat women as such.

[tu_holmes]

Well, you don't have to respect their beliefs at all, even if nothing can be done about it. But as a wise person once said, "the west has every right to defend her hardwon right of equality." This behavior doesn't have to be condoned in the west, just because it belongs to a culture that encourages the abuse of women in other, less enlightened countries.

Edit: I was paraphrasing. The correct quote is... "The West has every right to defend its character, including its hard-won principle of equality."

Hey, I'm not saying it should be... If someone migrates to another area, they should do what is done THERE. When in Rome and all that.

If someone moves across the street from me and he beats his wife, he should go to prison or whatever, it should not be tolerated... I'm simply saying that if I move to Saudi Arabia and everyone beats their wives there, while I may not, I certainly have no right to tell them it's wrong.

[BRUCE]

I'm simply saying that if I move to Saudi Arabia and everyone beats their wives there, while I may not, I certainly have no right to tell them it's wrong.

You don't have a right to tell them that's wrong when in Saudi Arabia.  That's because they would execute you for not being Islamic.  Where you are right now, you can, and you should.

[tu_holmes]

You don't have a right to tell them that's wrong when in Saudi Arabia.  That's because they would execute you for not being Islamic.  Where you are right now, you can, and you should.

First off, I'm not defending them, nor their culture (as you seem to be alluding to), because it's not mine... but it IS theirs. You may not like it, but that's the way it is... you nor any other person has any right to say that their way is worse than yours.

You "believe" it to be worse, but in reality, that's just your opinion and there's millions of "alalalalalalalalala"s running around who say otherwise.

Now, the point I'm making is not about who has "rights" or what have you... It's simple... when you go to other countries in general, you assimilate. You should... If you move to France for a job, learn French... Germany, German and so on.

If anyone who is of a culture that disrespects women moves to a civilization that does not, then they need to learn to deal with it and assimilate... that's my point. Don't make this about Islam, because it's not.

You could be in a tribe in Africa and they could be the same way, but they don't fly airplanes into buildings... So, my point IS if you move to another area whose culture is different from yours, you should assimilate to that culture, or what's the point of moving in the first place.

Even if it's about money... it's about the money that being in that culture provides you.

[Debussey]

So, my point IS if you move to another area whose culture is different from yours, you should assimilate to that culture, or what's the point of moving in the first place.

What is teh funny here:

Objective analysis of the cause and effect of different cultural aspects can to some degree determine the optimal building blocks for the culture.

For example: We can analyze and determine that cultures that circumcise young girls is worse off than cultures that does not support such acts.

The same is true for the negative aspects of certain Arabic cultures (hitting women++).

Battling different moral opinions = usually pointless, because measurement can never show what is truly best since an opinion is ... just that.

But by carefully analyzing the actual effects different moral opinions and cultural attributes have on a society, one can determine certain principles that should be applied everywhere.

An Arabic (or any other culture for that matter) that supports violence and suppression of women does not follow such principles. Thus, assimilating into it is in certain way best in a narrow point of view, but it does not make it right when seen against measurable reason and logic.

In other words, if your statement holds true, moving to an Arabic state must have pretty huge benefits for the individual to justify moving there.

[Debussey]

What is teh funny here:

Objective analysis of the cause and effect of different cultural aspects can to some degree determine the optimal building blocks for the culture.

For example: We can analyze and determine that cultures that circumcise young girls is worse off than cultures that does not support such acts.

The same is true for the negative aspects of certain Arabic cultures (hitting women++).

Battling different moral opinions = usually pointless, because measurement can never show what is truly best since an opinion is ... just that.

But by carefully analyzing the actual effects different moral opinions and cultural attributes have on a society, one can determine certain principles that should be applied everywhere.

An Arabic (or any other culture for that matter) that supports violence and suppression of women does not follow such principles. Thus, assimilating into it is in certain way best in a narrow point of view, but it does not make it right when seen against measurable reason and logic.

In other words, if your statement holds true, moving to an Arabic state must have pretty huge benefits for the individual to justify moving there.

This post explains why us in the west in many areas are the most highly developed moral societies on the planet, because the morals our societies = built on = in many areas the result of reason and logic, while less developed cultures still operates on morals based on the opposite: Irrational and unreasonable cultural heritage (how can anybody defend circumsition of 2 year old girls? ) that leads to more pain. For example, hitting and suppression of women, lack of religious freedom, things like circumsition of women and so on are all irrational social heritage that leads to more pain than good. Some people have the guts to claim that such acts can be justified because tradition = a unifying force for a population, yet this "advantage" pales in comparison to the pain it creates.

This also explains why strong religious beliefs never should be the basis for the morals in any society with certain modern traits. Morals found in religion is not automatically bad, the opposite is often true, but it should never be applied until it has been judged by reason and logic.

Long live the freedom we have in the west.

[BRUCE]

First off, I'm not defending them, nor their culture (as you seem to be alluding to), because it's not mine... but it IS theirs. You may not like it, but that's the way it is... you nor any other person has any right to say that their way is worse than yours.

You "believe" it to be worse, but in reality, that's just your opinion and there's millions of "alalalalalalalalala"s running around who say otherwise.

Now, the point I'm making is not about who has "rights" or what have you... It's simple... when you go to other countries in general, you assimilate. You should... If you move to France for a job, learn French... Germany, German and so on.

If anyone who is of a culture that disrespects women moves to a civilization that does not, then they need to learn to deal with it and assimilate... that's my point. Don't make this about Islam, because it's not.

You could be in a tribe in Africa and they could be the same way, but they don't fly airplanes into buildings... So, my point IS if you move to another area whose culture is different from yours, you should assimilate to that culture, or what's the point of moving in the first place.

Even if it's about money... it's about the money that being in that culture provides you.

I'm not alluding to that, and I'm not talking about you moving there.  Criticise from the sweet air of freedom. These men are scum and should be called out as such.

[BRUCE]

This post explains why us in the west in many areas are the most highly developed moral societies on the planet, because the morals our societies = built on = in many areas the result of reason and logic, while less developed cultures still operates on morals based on the opposite: Irrational and unreasonable cultural heritage (how can anybody defend circumsition of 2 year old girls? ) that leads to more pain. For example, hitting and suppression of women, lack of religious freedom, things like circumsition of women and so on are all irrational social heritage that leads to more pain than good. Some people have the guts to claim that such acts can be justified because tradition = a unifying force for a population, yet this "advantage" pales in comparison to the pain it creates.

Long live the freedom we have in the west.

Amen to that.

[tu_holmes]

What is teh funny here:

In other words, if your statement holds true, moving to an Arabic state must have pretty huge benefits for the individual to justify moving there.

Absolutely... which I why I sure am not moving there anytime.

[tu_holmes]

I'm not alluding to that, and I'm not talking about you moving there.  Criticise from the sweet air of freedom. These men are scum and should be called out as such.

I never said they were not scum... I deplore what he did. My point was that even if it is OK in his former society, that's not his society now... well, at the time he did that deed.

Of course I criticize from the "air of freedom" as you put it... I'm fortunate enough to live HERE.

If I was not, then I would not know any better as I would have been conditioned to believe that what I was doing at the time was indeed "right".

I have never said that I do not enjoy my freedoms... I certainly do... enough to fight tooth and nail to keep them, even though some would say that makes me for "them", and not "us".

How does my critique in "free air" have anything to do with the subject?

The fact you can retort is also a symbol of the freedom we share.

[Debussey]

Amen to that.

Debussey must stop writing here. You might get a hunch of Debusseys argumentative style. = you can exploit it.

Do not worry: Debussey can be a chameleon. 

[BRUCE]

I never said they were not scum... I deplore what he did. My point was that even if it is OK in his former society, that's not his society now... well, at the time he did that deed.

Of course I criticize from the "air of freedom" as you put it... I'm fortunate enough to live HERE.

If I was not, then I would not know any better as I would have been conditioned to believe that what I was doing at the time was indeed "right".

I have never said that I do not enjoy my freedoms... I certainly do... enough to fight tooth and nail to keep them, even though some would say that makes me for "them", and not "us".

How does my critique in "free air" have anything to do with the subject?

The fact you can retort is also a symbol of the freedom we share.

I'm asking you to condemn Muslim men that believe in treating women like they are filth.  Will you do so?

[tu_holmes]

I'm asking you to condemn Muslim men that believe in treating women like they are filth.  Will you do so?

Not if they are in a Muslim country, I will not... because that is the only way they know... abuse is taught.

However, if they are in a western country which has different rules and guidelines for existing in its society, then yes.

Does that answer your question?

[Debussey]

I'm asking you to condemn Muslim men that believe in treating women like they are filth.  Will you do so?

There exist one problem here: Muslim men = brought up with irrationality. Their whole reality is built on teh worship of ze irrational. Only when they truly embrace logic and reason will the Muslim world grow up. That will not happen in the near future.

[tu_holmes]

There exist one problem here: Muslim men = brought up with irrationality. Their whole reality is built on teh worship of ze irrational. Only when they truly embrace logic and reason will the Muslim world grow up. That will not happen in the near future.

I'm gonna be generous and say... oh... 500 years give or take a century and they'll be able to embrace teh logic and reason.

[BRUCE]

Not if they are in a Muslim country, I will not... because that is the only way they know... abuse is taught.

However, if they are in a western country which has different rules and guidelines for existing in its society, then yes.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, it does - you support people in Saudi Arabia abusing women in the name of Islam.

[tu_holmes]

Yes, it does - you support people in Saudi Arabia abusing women in the name of Islam.

Put whatever spin you want to on it Bruce... If you were born there, you'd be doing the same thing.

[haider]

Muslim men are not taught to abuse their wives. Education is the biggest factor here (teh logic and reason). No educated muslim will tell you it is okay to beat your wife. This applies to all human beings.

[BRUCE]

Muslim men are not taught to abuse their wives. Education is the biggest factor here (teh logic and reason). No educated muslim will tell you it is okay to beat your wife. This applies to all human beings.

Haider, does the government in Saudi Arabia do anything to stop Muslim men beating their wives or circumcising young women?

[tu_holmes]

Haider, does the government in Saudi Arabia do anything to stop Muslim men beating their wives or circumcising young women?

Watch out Haider... Next thing you know, it'll be you're either with him, or you're with them!

The government there is very tied to the religion... Of course they don't do anything about it... Their religion and culture has that as fundamental rule.

If you think it's so bad Bruce... feel free to go over to Saudi and tell them to stop it... I'll be looking for you on the evening news.

[BRUCE]

Watch out Haider... Next thing you know, it'll be you're either with him, or you're with them!

The government there is very tied to the religion... Of course they don't do anything about it... Their religion and culture has that as fundamental rule.

If you think it's so bad Bruce... feel free to go over to Saudi and tell them to stop it... I'll be looking for you on the evening news.

You're a fool, you won't even condemn such acts from the safety of your computer room.  Now let others speak.

[haider]

Haider, does the government in Saudi Arabia do anything to stop Muslim men beating their wives or circumcising young women?

I'm not the best person to ask but I'm sure they have strict punishment for domestic crime. As to how well it is enforced is a different story and not something I know very much about. I've never heard of the practice of female circumcision in Saudia arabia. In fact I don't think very many muslims practice this at all.

[tu_holmes]

You're a fool, you won't even condemn such acts from the safety of your computer room.  Now let others speak.

No Bruce, I just realize that the world is much bigger than the little teeny neighborhood you must feel comfort in staying in... Whether you like to believe it or not, the world and the people in it are much more complex than you seem to be able to grasp... If that makes me a "fool" as you put it, then I'm ok with that... Your lack of approval of what I believe to be right in the world will not keep me from sleeping at night...

Back to your backwoods shack you go.

[tu_holmes]

I'm not the best person to ask but I'm sure they have strict punishment for domestic crime. As to how well it is enforced is a different story and not something I know very much about. I've never heard of the practice of female circumcision in Saudia arabia. In fact I don't think very many muslims practice this at all.

I've heard of it in Africa on numerous occasions and while Saudi Arabia is an African nation, I doubt it's common place...

Oh wait... I'm supposed to stop typing because Bruce told me too... silly me.