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CALLER: Hi, Rush. Thanks for taking my call.
RUSH: Yes, sir.
CALLER: I wanted to ask you what you thought about the possibility of a presidential pardon for Scooter Libby.
RUSH: Well, that's another thing. I have no way of even giving you an indication. I have no gut sense on that myself. If there is to be a pardon of Scooter Libby, it won't happen 'til Bush's last week in office. He's not going to do it now. There's too much to do. He needs Congress on Iraq. He needs as much help as he can get with the war on terror. I wouldn't look for that any time soon. As to whether Bush would do this upon leaving office? Fifty-50 ods are the best I could give you. It's entirely possible.
CALLER: Thank you.
RUSH: You bet. Jack in Boston, you're next. The EIB Network and El Rushbo. Hello, sir.
CALLER: Yeah, Rush, I have one comment, and that's: and Sandy Berger goes free?
RUSH: Yep. The justice department didn't even pursue Sandy Burglar. He got community service and, I think, a fine. He also lost his security clearance, but guess what? Sandy Burglar gets his security clearance back just in time to rejoin the Hillary Clinton administration in 2009.
CALLER: What Sandy Burglar did was a thousand times, a million times more serious than the Scooter Libby thing.
RUSH: Well, yes, on the surface it is. The one thing that you should take away from this -- I make this comment regardless of the Scooter Libby verdicts here and what he did or didn't do -- is: if the feds ever come calling on you, if the FBI or anybody ever comes calling on you to ask you questions about something, do one of two things. Call a lawyer, and don't talk to them until you've gotten advice from a lawyer, or number two, do not lie to them. Prosecutors, like anybody else, will take the route of the least resistance in order to get a conviction. It's what these people are all about. Prosecutors don't go to court for any other reason, and they don't pursue people to find them innocent. They pursue people to find them guilty. Don't lie to them, because the same thing can happen.
It’s what Martha Stewart did. She didn't get a lawyer. She thought she was scoring points by cooperating. It turned out that they got her on lying, but that's not what she was convicted of if you listen to the jurors in her trial. Now, my reason for saying this is, because when you start lying -- when the FBI and the feds come calling and they're conducting an investigation into anything, you start lying -- and here comes that giant umbrella called obstruction of justice, and that basically means if you send them on a wild-goose chase, if you lie to them about things and it causes them to go investigate, they will bring the hammer down on you like you can't believe. You have true believers here, and some of these prosecutors -- some of these federal prosecutors, some of these US attorneys -- are some of the best lawyers in the country, and they come out of law school gung-ho.
They all believe in the sanctity of federal investigations. You lie to them, and they come get you. Now, I know you're saying, “Well, what about Clinton? Clinton lied under oath in grand jury testimony.” Yes, and he was found in contempt by a federal judge, and he lost his law license for a while. But he didn't get any jail time over it, which was probably because he's president of the United States. Don't forget that Ken Starr, the independent counsel there, didn't really bring any charges of any substance. So, that's a little piece of advice. That's what they got Libby on and that's what they were pursuing him on because they had nothing else in this case.
BREAK TRANSCRIPTRUSH: One of the questions the jury came out and asked this morning was, “Judge, is it a crime if Libby lied to Matt Cooper?” He's a journalist, a reporter for TIME Magazine, and the judge said, “Well, for better or worse, it's not a crime to lie to a journalist.” Yet that's one of the guilty counts, that he lied to the FBI about his conversations with Matt Cooper, and he also lied to the FBI about his conversations with Tim Russert.
Now, Libby's defense attorney, Ted Wells, took to the microphone mere moments ago and said they're going to do two things. They're going to make a motion for a new trial on the basis that these verdicts make no sense with what questions the jurors were asking and the testimony. Then when that fails -- and it will. I mean they gotta ask this judge to basically do a new trial, and the judge is not going to say, “Yeah, I agree with you. This thing is a travesty,” because then the judge is saying, “I should have stopped it earlier.” So that motion will fail, and they will go to the appeal. The idea they have a new trial and throw it out? That won't happen.
Of course, in this case, who knows? Obviously you get an appeal on this, the opportunity for an appeal, and the grounds here will be, “Those jurors had no clue what they were deciding. Based on the questions that they were asking, these jurors were spinning in there, and didn't even know what this case is about. It has to be retried.” They'll probably say something about the judge's jury instructions weren't good. They'll probably point out that Libby wanted a lot of documents that the government has entered into evidence, and the government wouldn't let 'em, and the judge sided with the government. There are some grounds here for an appeal, and the Libby lawyer said (as all lawyers who lose do) that he's totally confident that Libby, in time, will be vindicated. Peter in Rochester, New York. Welcome, sir, to the EIB Network. Hello.
CALLER: Oh, hi, Rush. Thank God you got your hearing. Listen, I believe that Scooter Libby got what he deserved, and I don't think that he's a good guy. If you remember, he was on the defense team who defended Marc Rich going way back, and Marc Rich was really kind of a disgusting person.
RUSH: Wait a minute! Wait a minute! Wait a minute. That's not how the justice system works! I'm not sure he defended Rich or if he represented Rich in his appeal to Clinton for a pardon, but that's not how the justice system works. See, you would have made a good juror in this case, because you're saying, “Okay, Libby is a scoundrel. He works for Cheney. He works for Bush, and he helped Marc Rich. Guilty.”
CALLER: The other thing --
RUSH: No, no, no, no. You need to be embarrassed about that. Peter, you really can't mean what you just said to me.
CALLER: Why?
RUSH: Well, because that's not how the justice system works. Sadly, I guess it does. But you, you want to convict Libby --
CALLER: Ever hear of karma?
RUSH: No, you want to convict Libby based on zero evidence in the case. You think Libby got what he deserved and you cited things that have nothing to do in this case.
CALLER: Well, in a sense you're right. I’m talking in a general sense about karma. In the general term of karma, Scooter Libby defended a skunk, and now he himself got himself in jail -- and wouldn't it be ironic if just as Rich was pardoned by Clinton, Bush pardoned Libby, who defended Rich?
RUSH: I guess if it would be karmatic, it could be ironic, but you're getting into things metaphysical here.
CALLER: That's right.RUSH: And this case is about facts and so forth. Your call is fascinating to me because we could have had ten or 12 people or ten or 11 people just like you on this jury. You sound like a Martha Stewart juror. "He deserves to get this because karma needs to come in!” There are roots of this. Don't seek vengeance. Let higher powers take care of that for you. There are all kinds of rationalizations. Reno, Nevada. Hal, you're next. It's great to have you with us.
CALLER: Yes, Rush. During her, I think, '98 grand jury testimony, Hillary Clinton answered under oath, "I don't remember" at least 250 times. Where's the prosecution? Look at the difference here.
RUSH: Yeah, I know. I absolutely know. But there's some things about the criminal justice system you have to know, and it's --
CALLER: It's against the law to be a Republican.
RUSH: In Washington, it is. With a DC jury and a Bush administration and a Drive-By Media that's been trying to drive 'em out of office for four or five years you're damn right it's against the law to be a Republican in the eyes of many people. You know, Hillary had all kinds of protection. Libby didn't testify. I wonder if they're rethinking that. Libby did not testify in this case, but it boils down here that the jury was made to believe that there was some giant cover-up here to protect people higher up in the Bush administration, and this is as close as they could get. As I mentioned earlier, if Fitzpatrick wants to, he could take this verdict and look at it as red meat and say, "Man, I've got all kinds of possibilities and potential here," if he thinks that there are other things to pursue. Vero Beach, Florida. Hi Jim, welcome to the program.
CALLER: Hello?
RUSH: Yes, sir, Jim, you're on the EIB Network. Your big show biz break.
CALLER: Yes. Thanks. Hey, I've got a problem with all this. This whole case is costing us millions of dollars. I love the president. I truly do. Why doesn't anyone stand up and say hey, and just come out and say, like you do, and say the truth, say, Well, you know, this is all about nothing. It's costing you the taxpayers a fortune for absolutely nothing."
RUSH: I'll tell you why. That's a great question. You're asking why the administration didn't pipe up and say something?
CALLER: Yes.
RUSH: They're scared of the prosecutor.
CALLER: Why?RUSH: Because he could come after 'em. This guy could do anything. These guy have limitless power. Federal prosecutors have more money than the people in this administration combined. If this guy gets his nose out of joint by something that Cheney or Bush might say, or anybody else in the administration, I'll guarantee you people inside the administration have been itching to go public with a whole bunch of things, but they don't dare because there is a natural fear of prosecutors, particularly federal prosecutors.
CALLER: Who hired him?
RUSH: Bush did -- the justice department did -- but Bush can't come out and fire the guy. I mean, he could, but there are too many political ramifications, and Bush has other agenda items that he wants to get done.
CALLER: Well, I understand the agenda items. Rush, I just don't get it sometimes. I have great respect for the president, but there are so many times it's like he doesn't stand up and say, “This is how it is.” Just tell us. I think people would believe him. And the Democrats say some of the dumbest things --
RUSH: Look, as I've said before: the president is not leading a movement. He's a Republican. He's not a conservative. He's conservative on certain things, but he doesn't view himself as leading a movement, and you consider yourself conservative, correct?
CALLER: Yes.
RUSH: You consider yourself a movement conservative, and it's what I said yesterday. One of the reasons so many people are supporting Ann Coulter is because she fights. She stands up and she responds to some of this stuff that the left throws out.
CALLER: Yes.
RUSH: She's got a lot more defenders than she does detractors, as do I, but the people -- the conservatives in this country -- are hungering for just the kind of fight you're talking about. But when you're talking about a legal case and a federal prosecutor, Jim, it ain't going to happen. There's morbid fear of these people.
CALLER: How does he lose his power eventually, this prosecutor? At what point is he taken off and no longer is a prosecutor?
RUSH: It's all different, but this is a great argument. The independent counsel law, the Democrats wanted to get rid of it after the Clinton administration, and Bush gets in office, now they love the independent counsel law. In this case, James Comey, who was the acting attorney general when John Ashcroft retired, or resigned, granted unlimited authority and gave Patrick Fitzgerald the unlimited authority of the justice department to pursue anything he thought relevant to this case. When a prosecutor has that much power over and above what he normally has in the federal system, people who want to speak up and say things cower, especially after the indictments have come down -- or come up, depending on your legal preference -- and you're not part of it, you shut up. You circle the wagons and protect everybody, protect yourselves.
CALLER: What can we do about it?
RUSH: Nothing.
CALLER: What can we as people?
RUSH: The judicial system's not up to a vote.
CALLER: I know.
RUSH: Just like science isn't. There's not a whole lot you can do. You could write justice department letters. It's not going to matter a hill of beans. In this case, I know that you want to do something about it because you think there's gross injustices going on. The best thing to do is understand the judicial system. You know, people say it's about justice. In many cases, it's not about justice at all. It's about politics. This is purely a political case. Scooter Libby is as high as Fitzgerald could get. He wanted Cheney. He wanted Rove. This is as high as he could get. This is an indictment against the Bush administration, and this is going to be portrayed as a guilty verdict against the Bush administration for criminalizing policy. Fitzgerald is still talking. I have no clue what he's saying. I've gotta take a break. I'm going to listen in to a little bit of it. Jim, thanks for the call. I appreciate it.