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Author Topic: Overdieting on a cycle??!  (Read 2084 times)
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« on: April 04, 2007, 07:55:24 PM »

is there such thing as overdieting on a cutting cycle???......a shitload of hormones, ECA,  currently at around 1800 cals a day(mostly from protein) and after 20lbs loss in a month i'm stuck at 250 for the past 3 weeks....was wondering how low can i go on the cal intake whithout worrying about overdieting/muscle loss......What's your thought on that, AJ?
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 08:21:55 PM »

You can go too low...there is a threshold as to where this limit is...if you go past it you will lose muscle mass. the body is going to get what it needs one way or the other, so when your calories get "too low" major muscle and strength loss will occur. However, this threshold is going to vary from person to person...weight, LBM, and genetics make up a large part of this.

I've made this mistake in the past, taking my calories much lower then I should have. I'd get to a point and hit a wall with my weight loss and lower my calories even more. Doing this I'd always experience a bit more weight loss, but more muscle loss then anything else. When you go into severe starvation mode, your body eats the muscle like there is no tomorrow and it seems to make losing fat even more difficult...I think it does this because the body is trying to save the fat because it's worried about not getting an adequate supply of nutrients.

Some things you might try to help your process:

*Don't rely on a strictly protein based diet. It's true, your muscle do require protein for growth and maintenance, but the body also requires some level of an energy source. Obviously fats and carbs are these two sources, without them your body will eat muscle for this energy purpose and hang on to the fat.

*I like the idea of high protein moderate fat diets, with little to no carbs. Now there are dieting methods that do include a limited amount of carbs and they can work, but the protein/fat diets seem to be more efficient.

*When following a diet like this your body becomes accustomed to not having a supply of glucose but it has an ample supply of fat to pull from for energy. When your body runs out of fat to feed on from the foods you ate, it will then go after stored bodyfat since that is the mode it's already in...this will spare your muscles from being attacked by the body in search of glucose.

*I'd follow a plan like the fat/protein guideline, but I'd also incorporate a heavy carb meal 1x per wk in order to trick the body...this will continue to aid in the entire process.

*Last off, and it's what no one wants to hear, do more cardio. However, I am not a propionate of high-intensity cardio. This requires large amounts of glucose to attempt and on this type of diet you don't have that to spare. Moderate speed long duration cardio is best, because it will only burn fat.

A lot of what I believe to be the most efficient way to do things, as many of you will be easily able to tell, comes straight from Dave Palumbo's dieting philosophies. To me, Dave's ideas make more sense then any other way one could diet, being that they are the most conducive to losing fat while maintaining as much muscle mass as humanly possible. Love him or hate him, when it comes to dieting and BB in general, Dave is the king.

I hope some of this helps and answerers your questions. If not, keep asking whatever you want.
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 09:09:20 PM »

....every 7th day i eat as much carbs as i want , the rest 6 days  - 6-8 meals of protein, 1 of the meals has 60 g of crabs, fats - 1-2 tbspoons of fish/flax oil.. Some say you have to be under 50g of carbs a day to reach ketosis, so i'll try to replace the 60 g of carbs with some fat, and eventually add a little bit more of a fat and see how it goes.......bottom line  - dieting sux!
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 09:33:52 AM »

....every 7th day i eat as much carbs as i want , the rest 6 days  - 6-8 meals of protein, 1 of the meals has 60 g of crabs, fats - 1-2 tbspoons of fish/flax oil.. Some say you have to be under 50g of carbs a day to reach ketosis, so i'll try to replace the 60 g of carbs with some fat, and eventually add a little bit more of a fat and see how it goes.......bottom line  - dieting sux!
If you decide to go this route, here are a few things to consider.

*First, if you're going to replace the carbs with fats, spread those calories evenly over all your meals...not just one meal

*To reach Ketosis you're going to have to be in the neighborhood of under 50g of carbs per day. Bare in mind that to do this, that means no foods with direct carb sources...any of the carbs you get will have to come sort of indirectly via other foods. For example, PB has a couple carbs, green vegtables have a few carbs, nuts have a few carbs, etc...and yes, on this type of diet the carbs in all these foods count...even the ones in green veggies.

*I would change your high carb day. If you eat carbs all day on this day, then you'll be throwing your self off of the ketogenic diet. 1 meal is all you can really afford. Eat what you want on this meal, but limit it to this 1 meal...I recommend the last meal of the day 1x every wk, same time every wk.

*Supplement your diet with omega-3 fish oil and evening primose oil. 3-4 servings of fish oil 2 of primose per day. This will greatly benefit your process.

Last off, dieting can suck, but I believe you'll find this type of diet to be much easier and smoother on your body. There are no "crashes" like you might experience on a "low-carb" diet. Plus, it is far more efficient. When and if you start this, the first 3 or 4 days are going to be a little rough. Your energy levels will be a little low and you will experience a good deal of hunger. This is because it is a shock to your body to not be receiving its standard dose of carbs. After this time and once your body gets into ketosis, it should be smooth sailing from there on out. After this initial phase say after 2wks or so, you may or may not experience a slight drop in strength...although your body has by this time become accustomed to the diet in terms of carbs being absent, it's still sort of in the "acceptance" phase. Don't let this bother you, if this does occur, if your like most guys after a wk or so of that you should be OK.
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mmmmm....


« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 09:37:26 AM »

6-8 meals of protein, 1 of the meals has 60 g of crabs

Are shellfish good for fat loss???   Grin
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 09:42:53 AM »

Are shellfish good for fat loss???   Grin
Not sure if your being serious or not, but the answer is no.
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leonp1981
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mmmmm....


« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 09:47:24 AM »

Not sure if your being serious or not, but the answer is no.

G's post:

Quote
60 g of crabs

(...well I thought it was funny...  Cheesy)
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 09:52:55 AM »

G's post:

(...well I thought it was funny...  Cheesy)
Gottcha...I did not catch that.
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 11:59:00 AM »

Very well written and correct information Arnold.

I just printed that out.

I agree about Dave, he really does know dieting.

Cool
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 12:07:11 PM »

If you decide to go this route, here are a few things to consider.

*First, if you're going to replace the carbs with fats, spread those calories evenly over all your meals...not just one meal

*To reach Ketosis you're going to have to be in the neighborhood of under 50g of carbs per day. Bare in mind that to do this, that means no foods with direct carb sources...any of the carbs you get will have to come sort of indirectly via other foods. For example, PB has a couple carbs, green vegtables have a few carbs, nuts have a few carbs, etc...and yes, on this type of diet the carbs in all these foods count...even the ones in green veggies.

*I would change your high carb day. If you eat carbs all day on this day, then you'll be throwing your self off of the ketogenic diet. 1 meal is all you can really afford. Eat what you want on this meal, but limit it to this 1 meal...I recommend the last meal of the day 1x every wk, same time every wk.

*Supplement your diet with omega-3 fish oil and evening primose oil. 3-4 servings of fish oil 2 of primose per day. This will greatly benefit your process.

Last off, dieting can suck, but I believe you'll find this type of diet to be much easier and smoother on your body. There are no "crashes" like you might experience on a "low-carb" diet. Plus, it is far more efficient. When and if you start this, the first 3 or 4 days are going to be a little rough. Your energy levels will be a little low and you will experience a good deal of hunger. This is because it is a shock to your body to not be receiving its standard dose of carbs. After this time and once your body gets into ketosis, it should be smooth sailing from there on out. After this initial phase say after 2wks or so, you may or may not experience a slight drop in strength...although your body has by this time become accustomed to the diet in terms of carbs being absent, it's still sort of in the "acceptance" phase. Don't let this bother you, if this does occur, if your like most guys after a wk or so of that you should be OK.

well...switching from 60g of carbs to none is not too big of a deal, so i doubt it I'd feel any difference in hunger and energy levels......but  the good thing is that this diet would allow me to switch at least one of the disgusting boiled chicken breasts meals with a regular broiled  chicken(thigs, legs, wings breasts)...So let me see - basically unlimited protein intake and what maybe 50-100 g of fats a day + every 7th day one cheat meal, right? So how would you compare the effectiveness of this diet , compared to a regular high protein , low carbs/fat diet? 
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 12:59:51 PM »

i am pretty carb sensitive and i go down to around 50g of carbs a day at my lowest. cycle your carbs up and down and you will shed the bodyfat
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 01:18:17 PM »

Arnold,

When do you prefer cardio? morning on an empty stomach? after weight training? both?

Thanks

Cool
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 05:26:38 PM »

well...switching from 60g of carbs to none is not too big of a deal, so i doubt it I'd feel any difference in hunger and energy levels
Except for the first 3 or 4 days of the diet, you should actually have more energy because your body will have an unlimited supply of energy via ketone's.


......but  the good thing is that this diet would allow me to switch at least one of the disgusting boiled chicken breasts meals with a regular broiled  chicken(thigs, legs, wings breasts)
Actually, for your chicken meal I'd stick with the breast. Although on this style of diet you are wanting to consume more fats, the key is the "right" type of fats.


...So let me see - basically unlimited protein intake and what maybe 50-100 g of fats a day + every 7th day one cheat meal, right?

40-50g protein per meal, 15-20 fat per meal, (this does not include fish oil fats, those are extra) One cheat meal per wk, correct


So how would you compare the effectiveness of this diet , compared to a regular high protein , low carbs/fat diet? 
Better all around. There will be no spikes in energy levels meaning that in turn there will be no days when your energy levels plummet. You will definitely spare a lot of muscle this way.


i am pretty carb sensitive and i go down to around 50g of carbs a day at my lowest. cycle your carbs up and down and you will shed the bodyfat

This is one way to do things and it will work...I've done it this way in the past. However, on this type of diet you experience a great deal of fluctuation with your energy levels...a lot of unnecessary insulin spikes. You also run a much greater risk of losing muscle you could have otherwise kept.

Arnold,

When do you prefer cardio? morning on an empty stomach? after weight training? both?

Thanks

Cool

Both have their place, but morning cardio on an empty stomach is a little more effective IMO. However, when I start a diet, my cardio starts out at one session per day right after training...I train in the afternoon...this is simply a time issue. Once I need to up my cardio to two sessions per day I will add in the morning session.
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 06:31:41 PM »

Seemed on the low carb diet that I did not need that much aerobics.  Just did 30 min post weight training ED, and walking the mut 30 min a day.


Looking back I think I did too much areobics.  I remember this one talented BB I knew who would always laugh as he walked by cause I was doing aerobics, dude would always say to diet the fat off.  But I feel better if I do it, feels like your slacking if you dont do it ED.
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2007, 01:14:33 AM »

How many weeks out to before contest day can i start this diet?

And do i need to carb load before the contest using this diet and if so how much?

Also regarding the healthy fat choice, is olive oil/sunflower oil suitable for this diet besides fish oil? Any other alternatives for natural peanut butter and raw almonds too? The choices of healthy fats as given by Dave Palumbo's diet below maybe a little costly in the country i live in.

I'm now currently maintaining a relatively clean diet before i start cruising into the contest prep diet mode as my contest is about 4 months away.

I may want to give this diet a try for my next contest prep as i have used the low carb approach in the past and then carb loading before a show and thus attaining a conditon not up to my satisfaction.

According to Dave Palumbo's diet plan:

Meal 1 6 whole Omega-3 eggs
Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds
Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter
Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil
Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB
Meal 6 6 whole eggs

Do appreciate AJ's input and info on this.
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2007, 05:42:09 AM »

bump AJ's info to a sticky, maybe their should be a dieting down sticky on the board?

going to diet down in a month so this info is gold.
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2007, 07:50:16 AM »

How many weeks out to before contest day can i start this diet?
16wks

And do i need to carb load before the contest using this diet and if so how much?
25g+- per meal starting either Fri or Thur afternoon

Also regarding the healthy fat choice, is olive oil/sunflower oil suitable for this diet besides fish oil?
No, fish oil, evening primose oil, macadamia nut oil, these are the choices on this diet.

Any other alternatives for natural peanut butter and raw almonds too? The choices of healthy fats as given by Dave Palumbo's diet below maybe a little costly in the country i live in.
Any natural butter will do, Dave actually prefers Almond Butter, I simply don't like the taste of it. As for subbing almonds, any nut or legume will be fine, just make sure it is raw and plain.




According to Dave Palumbo's diet plan:

Meal 1 6 whole Omega-3 eggs
Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds
Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter
Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil
Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB
Meal 6 6 whole eggs

Do appreciate AJ's input and info on this.

Yep, that's the diet, and a little side not, all the meals are interchangeable. For example, some days I just can't stomach eating salmon, so I'll simply sub it with a repeat of one of the other meals...works this way with all 6 meals.

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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2007, 10:21:52 AM »



Yep, that's the diet, and a little side not, all the meals are interchangeable. For example, some days I just can't stomach eating salmon, so I'll simply sub it with a repeat of one of the other meals...works this way with all 6 meals.



  I'd guess you adjust the protein/calorie intake according to the person's size , right? In my case I need 2 more protein meals and 50-60g of protein per meal , so i dont starve....
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2007, 11:33:42 AM »

  I'd guess you adjust the protein/calorie intake according to the person's size , right? In my case I need 2 more protein meals and 50-60g of protein per meal , so i dont starve....
The diet is based on 6 evenly spread meals...6 meals, no more no less, regardless of the person. After that the key is to adjust the fat intake as needed to suit the particular BB...the basic sample diet is more or less a guideline. Dave starts all of his male clients on this diet and then adjust from there based on progress and need. BTW, for any females who happen to read this thread, this diet works for them as well, but in a female's case it is based on 5 meals and the portions are arranged a bit differently...same foods though.

G, there is no way you'll "starve" on this diet...there is enough fat in there to prevent that from happening. This is the exact diet Dave uses for his client Tony Freeman, and as most of us know, Tony is absolutely huge.
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« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2007, 11:35:45 AM »

All the basics of Dave's diet can be found here:

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2915
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2007, 05:03:01 PM »

If you followed Dave Palumbos diest, you would be the most irritable, moody persons on the planet, but you would probably be very defined. I just cant focus and function without the carb energy.
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2007, 05:35:40 PM »

If you followed Dave Palumbos diest, you would be the most irritable, moody persons on the planet, but you would probably be very defined. I just cant focus and function without the carb energy.
I know at first glance it seems that it would be this way, but the truth is in fact the exact opposite. Like I've mentioned already, the first 3-4 days of the diet can be very difficult because of the initial shock of zero carbs, but after that your good to go. Once your body goes into ketosis you have an unlimited supply of energy to pull from, ketones. As far as being able to focus or what not, you should find that your thinking is much clearer then ever before. I've been folowing this way of dieting now for a bit and I can honestly say that I've never been able to think as clearly as I do now..I've actually been shocked at the difference.
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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2007, 10:15:54 PM »

yeah....2nd day without carbs and i definitely have the mood swings, but i do enjoy the whole eggs and the peanut butter Smiley. One thing i've noticed on Palumbo's board - he says 0g carbs , which is not true according to the sample diet he gave - the 2tbl spoons of PB, the protein shake, the almonds  - each one of those would probably add  to 20-40 g of carbs by the end of the day...
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2007, 12:02:46 AM »

yeah....2nd day without carbs and i definitely have the mood swings, but i do enjoy the whole eggs and the peanut butter Smiley. One thing i've noticed on Palumbo's board - he says 0g carbs , which is not true according to the sample diet he gave - the 2tbl spoons of PB, the protein shake, the almonds  - each one of those would probably add  to 20-40 g of carbs by the end of the day...
He does recognize this, but you're still low enough in carbs to be in ketosis.

BTW, 1 or 2 more days and you should be feeling good.
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2007, 04:16:41 AM »

After that the key is to adjust the fat intake as needed to suit the particular BB...the basic sample diet is more or less a guideline. Dave starts all of his male clients on this diet and then adjust from there based on progress and need.

Thanks for the earlier advice AJ, appreciate it.  Smiley

Btw, out of curiosity, is the fat intake of the diet i listed above too much or just ok for a 95kg person preping for a show?

How do i adjust the fat intake based on the progress & need throughout the entire length of the diet?

And also in the forum link you gave, Dave Palumbo mentioned a cheat meal once per week to reload glycogen stores. Is this necessary to be done?

Lastly, What do u think of Bodybuilding.com's Power butter a natural butter source? http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/pb/peanut.html  Is it suitable?
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