These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch

[headhuntersix]

I agree about balance. Also I'm going to heaven bro..12 year stretch in Catholic school ensures entrance

[Dos Equis]

Let me make things clear so nobody gets me wrong..I'm a US citizen..I wear the uniform of her Armed forces....I could give a shit less about the enemy or whats fair..i care about the United States.  I know we make mistakes...in most cases those who made them..such as in 240's last post will pay..but its war and things happen. And I only care about those mistakes in the context that they will put our soldiers in harms way, such as in Abu Garib. I really don't care we tortured these people beacuse I know they would do far worse to me or you. I want the war to end and I want the guys to come home..victorious..Iraq stable and the oil secured. I care about Iraq only in our stategic best interest as i do about any other country. Anything less would be naive.  I could care less about Iran or her people...Its like playing football and worriing about the other team..I care about my team....Jag unless u post facts don't say insurgents die all the time in our prisons because its not true. Not only that..these guys suck and if they die..well the only bad part is maybe they didn't give up enough intel that will save American lives.

*Applause* 

[headhuntersix]

Also 240 not one of these people are worth the lives of u or ur kids...and all the mil guys here will make sure u get to say what u want for a long time.

[Hedgehog]

Also 240 not one of these people are worth the lives of u or ur kids...and all the mil guys here will make sure u get to say what u want for a long time.

While I don't agree with jaguar, I still would like to ask you how you would justify torture of innocent people?

-Hedge

[headhuntersix]

Who says their innocent..these guys are all pretty much guilty of something and after 911 we will not take any chances.

[ieffinhatecardio]

Who says their innocent..these guys are all pretty much guilty of something and after 911 we will not take any chances.

HH, there's a whole group of people in the US that aren't comfortable with torture. They're not all liberals and they're not all socialists or commie pinko scum. Some of us still think that we're better than that. Still think that resorting to the methods of those that we condemn in this instance makes us no better than them. Perhaps we're all naive or perhaps we're clinging to some antiquated idea that doesn't hold much value but does that make us wrong or un-American?

9/11 changed our feelings of invincibility, getting attacked on our own land in such a vicious manner was devestating but I for one don't think that should change what we are and who we are. Again, maybe that's an antiquated notion but it's still one that many people believe in.

BTW, nice job admitting the oil agenda in Iraq. I'm sure a lot of posters here respect the fact that you can admit to it.

[240 is Back]

hh6,

I think many here are 'okay' with the US policy of pre-emptive attacks on oil-rich nations to keep us #1.

You don't mug a homeless guy, know what I mean?

But our problem lies in abuses.  You can have the war on terror without torture.  You can have it without letting Haliburton defraud the govt repeatedly.  You can have it without mailing anthrax to govt buildings to bypass debating the patriot act. 

They want to do what needs to be done, fine.  But seriously, what is a 21-year old idiot at Gitmo, whose only job was to fire a rifle at the northern Alliance, going to tell us in 2007 that matters?  It's the fraud and corruption that turn people off. 

[240 is Back]

I agree about balance. Also I'm going to heaven bro..12 year stretch in Catholic school ensures entrance

I think this point in an interesting one.  I've heard neoconservatives here say that liberals don't go to heaven, and I have to laugh.

Would any of you want to stand before St. peter and say that torture is cool?  That you're fine with a hundred thousand dead civilians over there because you wanted cheaper oil prices?

I mean, sure, maybe everyone really is okay with it, maybe not.  But when you put it into words, do you REALLY have the utmost confidence that the good Lord will just laugh it off and say "better you than them, dog!"?


I dunno.  Perhaps I retain this moral uncertainly because while I know what is best for nation is best for me - including global imperialism - I don't feel right telling others (or myself) that I have the moral high ground in this situation.

[Hedgehog]

hh6,

I think many here are 'okay' with the US policy of pre-emptive attacks on oil-rich nations to keep us #1.

You don't mug a homeless guy, know what I mean?

But our problem lies in abuses.  You can have the war on terror without torture.  You can have it without letting Haliburton defraud the govt repeatedly.  You can have it without mailing anthrax to govt buildings to bypass debating the patriot act. 

They want to do what needs to be done, fine.  But seriously, what is a 21-year old idiot at Gitmo, whose only job was to fire a rifle at the northern Alliance, going to tell us in 2007 that matters?  It's the fraud and corruption that turn people off. 

Are you a supporter of a conquering-type of policy, conquering whatever resources that USA has needs for?

-Hedge

[240 is Back]

Are you a supporter of a conquering-type of policy, conquering whatever resources that USA has needs for?

-Hedge

I don't know.


As a guy who grew up with 12 years of Catholic school, who sees the horrors we're inflicting, absolutely not.

As a guy who understands global economics and the diminishing role of US influence (thanks to our own actions) and the advent of technology making making several second-tier nations threats to my way of life, then yes.


If we don't force iraq to sell us their oil, a harder-working, more efficient China will convince them to do so voluntarily.  And our economy will suffer, my family will suffer, and eventually, whether is be in 20 years or 50 or 100 years, China or india or Russia will do exactly what we're doing today, and bring imperialism to US soil.  THEY will be the ones using WMD bullshit to install regime change here. 


I don't know what I believe anymore.  I know 911 was their catalyst, and I believe it should have been a victimless attack on a US resource abroad instead of 2971 dead people who did nothing but go to work that day.  But as far as US imperialism, I am torn.  I know it's wrong.  but I know it's needed to maintain our way of life and global position.  It's a tough issue.

[headhuntersix]

In the short term i'm ok with doing what needs to be done to secure our stategic goals..IE oil..BUT I would much prefer that Bush gets up one day with some bespeckled nerd next to him and announces that we have found a better way to manufacture and produce ethenol and detroit and the oil companies have bought off on it...thus we are pulling out of the middle east....have a nice day..go back to farming dirt. 

[240 is Back]

In the short term i'm ok with doing what needs to be done to secure our stategic goals..IE oil..BUT I would much prefer that Bush gets up one day with some bespeckled nerd next to him and announces that we have found a better way to manufacture and produce ethenol and detroit and the oil companies have bought off on it...thus we are pulling out of the middle east....have a nice day..go back to farming dirt. 

Their oil WILL run out.  When it does, we treat em like any other African nation and let them kill each other.  They will be darfurs and we will not care about shit.

On a plus, this year's planted ethanol crop is the biggest since WWII.  Looks like they're putting the infrastructure in place to replace oil.  Maybe the lack of American support for these oil wars means iran's oil isn't on the menu after all?

[headhuntersix]

Look at Africa....EG or equitorial Guine (not spelled right) has about 1.8 bilion barrels plus in some of her off-shore oil fields and we have all the contracts..they won't deal with Europe. Its all sweet crude and its easier to get to the US. They are saying it will be the Kuwait of Africa in ten years.

[Hedgehog]

I don't know.


As a guy who grew up with 12 years of Catholic school, who sees the horrors we're inflicting, absolutely not.

As a guy who understands global economics and the diminishing role of US influence (thanks to our own actions) and the advent of technology making making several second-tier nations threats to my way of life, then yes.


If we don't force iraq to sell us their oil, a harder-working, more efficient China will convince them to do so voluntarily.  And our economy will suffer, my family will suffer, and eventually, whether is be in 20 years or 50 or 100 years, China or india or Russia will do exactly what we're doing today, and bring imperialism to US soil.  THEY will be the ones using WMD bullshit to install regime change here. 


I don't know what I believe anymore.  I know 911 was their catalyst, and I believe it should have been a victimless attack on a US resource abroad instead of 2971 dead people who did nothing but go to work that day.  But as far as US imperialism, I am torn.  I know it's wrong.  but I know it's needed to maintain our way of life and global position.  It's a tough issue.

Do you believe one country has the right to secure its future on the expense on other countries?

-Hedge

[Alex23]

Yep, ...that's pretty messed up, ...but I suppose it's better that they hang someone they have proof against, as opposed to some countries who jerk themselves off claiming to be civilized yet will condone and/or justify the murder of those someone merely suspects may be gay, ...or who will systematically, rape, torture and sodomize innocent liitle children in the name of freedom.

Why don't you stick at selling shit on ebay from your 1 bedroom instead of trying to antagonize?

 

[headhuntersix]

Do you believe one country has the right to secure its future on the expense on other countries?

-Hedge

Good question.......it has served us well as its served the all of Europe at one time or another. Its how its done....and bro I just don't have a problem with it. I won't hedge on this.....I feel that ur safety as well as most of the folks on this board is much more important then some of the folks we roll over..what country are u in?

[240 is Back]

Do you believe one country has the right to secure its future on the expense on other countries?

No.  But I understand that most nations do it.  They will try to use their available resources to secure strategic advantages.  The US' available resources include a propaganda/evidence mnfg machine capable of selling a WMD story, and the military might to enforce a fake solution to the fake problem.

It ain't right.

[240 is Back]

Good question.......it has served us well as its served the all of Europe at one time or another. Its how its done....and bro I just don't have a problem with it. I won't hedge on this.....I feel that ur safety as well as most of the folks on this board is much more important then some of the folks we roll over..what country are u in?

Hedge is from Europe.  He sees US imperialism for what it is: One country taking another country's shit.

We have an emotional attachment, as we are benefitting from this imperialism, living beyond our nat'l means and robbing oil rich suckers to stay afloat.

[Hedgehog]

Good question.......it has served us well as its served the all of Europe at one time or another. Its how its done....and bro I just don't have a problem with it. I won't hedge on this.....I feel that ur safety as well as most of the folks on this board is much more important then some of the folks we roll over..what country are u in?

I am totally against it.

And it's not only because it goes against all kinds of democratic values that the Western Civilization is built on, but also because I believe for to create the safest possible place to live in, all countries needs to be doing well, and to suck out resources out of other nations, will only make them poor, instable and a base for terrorism and potential enemies.

It's basic utiliarism on a macro level.

-Hedge

[Hugo Chavez]

Good post Jag... yea, like Bill Maher said the other day, it's not exactly like we have the moral high ground to talk anymore, "what are you going to tell us? We‚re doing it wrong?"



MAHER: Yeah, now that they have British hostages, you know. And, of course, they have the moral high ground with this because they can say, well, you know, if you accuse us of torturing these people, what are you going to tell us? We‚re doing it wrong? [laughter] [applause]

[240 is Back]

It's basic utiliarism on a macro level.

The decision makers here think on a micro level.  Partially because the leaders of other near-superpowers do it, and partially because they would rather have their 300 mil live "very" well, and 3 billion starving, than all 3.3 billion living "pretty" well.

[headhuntersix]

Hedge is from Europe.  He sees US imperialism for what it is: One country taking another country's shit.

We have an emotional attachment, as we are benefitting from this imperialism, living beyond our nat'l means and robbing oil rich suckers to stay afloat.

Oh Europe....which country that was once powerful but has lost all her COLONIES IN 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES and now has to take a backseat to America. Europe in drenched in the blood of Africa, Asia and South America...they responsible for genocides big and small on almost every continent. They wish they could do what we do....American imperialsim keeps them safe from Islam..it kept them safe from the Russian Bear..it helped defeat the Nazis and the Kaiser..it rebuilt economies and its been a stable economic power for them all to rely on. I value hedge and his opinions but please..nobody from Europe need lecture us on imperialism.

[Hedgehog]

Oh Europe....which country that was once powerful but has lost all her COLONIES IN 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES and now has to take a backseat to America. Europe in drenched in the blood of Africa, Asia and South America...they responsible for genocides big and small on almost every continent. They wish they could do what we do....American imperialsim keeps them safe from Islam..it kept them safe from the Russian Bear..it helped defeat the Nazis and the Kaiser..it rebuilt economies and its been a stable economic power for them all to rely on. I value hedge and his opinions but please..nobody from Europe need lecture us on imperialism.

Europe is not a country.

Seriously, it's not.

-Hedge

[24KT]

Let me make things clear so nobody gets me wrong..I'm a US citizen..I wear the uniform of her Armed forces....I could give a shit less about the enemy or whats fair..i care about the United States.  I know we make mistakes...in most cases those who made them..such as in 240's last post will pay..but its war and things happen. And I only care about those mistakes in the context that they will put our soldiers in harms way, such as in Abu Garib. I really don't care we tortured these people beacuse I know they would do far worse to me or you. I want the war to end and I want the guys to come home..victorious..Iraq stable and the oil secured. I care about Iraq only in our stategic best interest as i do about any other country. Anything less would be naive.  I could care less about Iran or her people

That was the original thinking that got us into this fukkackta mess to begin with. I just love how people are using Iraq & Iran interchangeably these days. Wasn't that the original strategy after 911. Repeating 911, bin Laden and Saddam Hussein often enough, that within 6 months the president was able to say "I don't know where he is and I don't give him much thought". The focus shifted off OBL, and increasingly went to Saddam. now that he's dead, now it's slipping Iran in there. Do you really have such low opinions of the American people's ability to figure out what you're doing? Wait... don't bother answering that... I think I already know the answer to it.

...Its like playing football and worriing about the other team..I care about my team....

This is NOTHING like a game of football. WAKE THE FVCK UP!
Football is a game. Afterwhich everyone goes home.
Is that how you live with seeing men die everyday?
...equating the destruction to a football game?         

Jag unless u post facts don't say insurgents die all the time in our prisons because its not true. Not only that..these guys suck and if they die..well the only bad part is maybe they didn't give up enough intel that will save American lives.

When did I say insurgents die all the time in your prisons?

I said PEOPLE are dying. You have a hell of a nerve talking about the "enemy"
YOU DON'T EVEN A FVCKING CLUE AS TO WHO THE ENEMY IS!!!!!

This I know, ...cause if you did, you'd have been on them like white on rice and stopped this insanity in a heartbeat.

[240 is Back]

Europe is not a country.

Seriously, it's not.

-Hedge

It's interesting when the military folks here make some of the most elementary of mistakes.

perhaps it is in the best interest of the military if those taking bullets and giving limbs for their cause are somewhat unaware.