These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch

[Camel Jockey]

Europe is not a country.

Seriously, it's not.

-Hedge

I talked to one british tourist at a bar and he said the european union was pretty much like one single country, with a lot of the laws being made in Belgium.

[headhuntersix]

Um..I ment which country in Europe.....anyway Jag..shut the hell up..thanks.

[Hedgehog]

I talked to one british tourist at a bar and he said the european union was pretty much like one single country, with a lot of the laws being made in Belgium.

Actually, if your country is part of the EU, you can move and live anywhere in the EU, and a lot of laws are made up in Brussels.

But the most important part, taxation, is for each and every country to decide.

But all in all, the European Union is an enormous success, the original idea was to prevent Germany and France from ever go into war again, and that goal has long been reached.

Economic prosperity for the EU members was for a long time a secondary goal, and the reason for including economically weaker eastern bloc countries isn't primarily to boost the economic strength of the EU, but rather to make sure the stability is further established.

But nobody can deny that the EU is an economic success. The former eastern bloc countries that has been included have revitalized their economies, and even such lost causes as Romania and Bulgaria have a good outlook in the next 10 years.

As far as I am concerned: I can't understand why there are US citizens opposing an North American Union with Canada, USA and Mexico. That could perhaps finally drag Mexico out of the hole, and make Canada, USA and Mexico an awesome trinity.

Well, actually I understand the resistance. But I urge anyone who is against a NA union, to see the success EU had with including very poor countries, and their extreme economical, democratical and educational rise.

-Hedge

[Hedgehog]

Um..I ment which country in Europe.....anyway Jag..shut the hell up..thanks.

My bad. I misunderstood.

Let me just comment on the topic title of this thread.

"These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch"

While I believe it's perfectly ok to critisize the USA and any other country in the Western Civilization, it's NOT ok to have double standards.

Double standards?

What I mean, is that Iran cannot even be remotedly described as a democracy for a number of reasons. The biggest obviously being that the religious leader is the HNIC.

To suggest that Iran are more humane and decent than USA? C'mon now, fcuk that. Cut. The. Fcuking. Crap.

So please jaguar: Stop glorifying whoever is against Bush. That's not making a serious argument.

Instead, lets have a serious discussion about the wrong choices that the most powerful man in the world, Bush, are doing.

No need for Bush to call Iran a part of the axis of evil either. That's just bullshit. That's not being serious. That only shows the level of intelligence at the White House currently.

I mean, WTF? What gives Bush the right to label all those people living in Iran as evil? How the fcuk does he know whether they are "evil" or not?

What a fcuking clown. That statement is well on par with anything Chavez spews about "Mister Bush".

There are big problems with Iran. And Iran obviously needs reform. How to best reach that?

By branding an entire nation as "evil"? And threatening to go to war with said nation?

Yeah, right.


USA is the most powerful nation in the world, and will be for a long time.

We need a President who can lead the world in the right direction.

Giuliani and Edwards are two guys who could do it.

My guess is that these two will fight for the Presidency, and both would make good world leaders IMO.

-Hedge

[Old_Rooster]

a nation is what it leader makes it so yes, Iran right now is a EVIL nation and one VERY dangerous to the united states of america.  We should cut its head off NOW instead of LATER.

I implore our leader, snuff this country out NOW!

[Decker]

Do you believe one country has the right to secure its future on the expense on other countries?

-Hedge

That's a great question.  Anyone supporting the commandeering of Iraqi oil is explicitly repudiating any claim to supporting a "free market."

[Hedgehog]

a nation is what it leader makes it so yes, Iran right now is a EVIL nation and one VERY dangerous to the united states of america.  We should cut its head off NOW instead of LATER.

I implore our leader, snuff this country out NOW!

Do you support democracy?

-Hedge

[Old_Rooster]

Do you support democracy?

-Hedge

i support bitch slapping these nations around until they learn what decent humane behavior is all about.

[headhuntersix]

No problem hedge.....I'm not convinced about Rudy..and Edwards......I would not truly mind 4 years of Hilary..i think she can be a mean bitch.

[240 is Back]

i support bitch slapping these nations around until they learn what decent humane behavior is all about.

LOL!

We torture people and hold them without charges.

You can justify our actions any way you wish, but to say we are a model of "decent humane behavior" is hilarioius.

[Hedgehog]

LOL!

We torture people and hold them without charges.

You can justify our actions any way you wish, but to say we are a model of "decent humane behavior" is hilarioius.

He's at least half-right.

USA is the land of the free. It is a bastion of freedom and democracy. Any large society will sooner or later face corruption or at least some problems IMO.

USA has a solid foundation, and will always self-cure. I'm positive that you'll see a couple of years with a more neutral president, be it Rep or Dem.

The balance of power has shifted to the Legislative branch, and will probably stay like that for a few years, just like in the end of the 70's.

-Hedge

[headhuntersix]

Thats the beauty of America......just wait and things will shift and as u said ..self cure.....more moderate one way or the other.

[Nordic Superman]

Jag really needs to get herself an education, Hedge has humbled her into submission, now all he has to do is unzip his fly.

Jag, is this how civilization should be:
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=iran

You're a women, why would you chose to glorify a nation to fuel your anti-American bias when their dire human rights records almost always gravitate to womens rights?

You're obviously a submissive type that likes to be "controlled" aren't yah?

[24KT]

Jag really needs to get herself an education, Hedge has humbled her into submission, now all he has to do is unzip his fly.

Jag, is this how civilization should be:
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=iran

You're a women, why would you chose to glorify a nation to fuel your anti-American bias when their dire human rights records almost always gravitate to womens rights?

You're obviously a submissive type that likes to be "controlled" aren't yah?

What nation have I glorified?

Many of you have no true knowledge of the countries or cultures you speak of.

I am all for women's rights, however, I do not believe aggressive wars waged against others has been conducted for that reason. You talk about islam being so backward, ...and I won't disagree, but I will say at one time, Islam was the most progressive and civilized when it came to women's rights for the longest time... far longer than western cultures. The brand of Islamic Fundamentalism that we see today, is a direct result of colonial empires messing around in the internal politics of those nations. I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.

[Nordic Superman]

What nation have I glorified?

Many of you have no true knowledge of the countries or cultures you speak of.

I am all for women's rights, however, I do not believe aggressive wars waged against others has been conducted for that reason. You talk about islam being so backward, ...and I won't disagree, but I will say at one time, Islam was the most progressive and civilized when it came to women's rights for the longest time... far longer than western cultures. The brand of Islamic Fundamentalism that we see today, is a direct result of colonial empires messing around in the internal politics of those nations. I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.

False false false.

Islamic "fundamentalism" was with islam from it's interception, research it.

When does the islamic calendar start? Muhammads birth? Muhammad's death? No, at the point when muhammad became a leader and islam became a political ideology.

Aah, jihadist tendencies of muslims only arose because of the empires... FALSE again. Read the koran, read your islamic history.

Womens rights respected for a duration longer than the wests'? Where's you evidence of this? Totally fictitious. I could start with the Romans, Greeks, you name it and produce an argument that would blow yours out of the water.

Slave girls being raped, polygamy etc all supported by the infallible law of god sounds like quite the life style to you. Maybe you should move to a country where sharia law is implemented? You can then see their great moral standards, their great foresight into why the west is so bad etc.

Now take a look at your post... the bad points you make about the middle east/islam are results of "meddling" by the west/Israel. Completely LAUGHABLE.

You're a joker, your posts are pseudo intelligent drivel with no substances having no support from historical FACTS, REFERENCES or anything else that actually supports your arguments.

Serious, get an education.

[Nordic Superman]

So jaguarenterprises are you going to accept the points you made previously are ficticious or are you going to provide some EVIDENCE? Let me guess... you'll just continue spreading false truths right?

[Hedgehog]

What nation have I glorified?

Many of you have no true knowledge of the countries or cultures you speak of.

I am all for women's rights, however, I do not believe aggressive wars waged against others has been conducted for that reason. You talk about islam being so backward, ...and I won't disagree, but I will say at one time, Islam was the most progressive and civilized when it came to women's rights for the longest time... far longer than western cultures. The brand of Islamic Fundamentalism that we see today, is a direct result of colonial empires messing around in the internal politics of those nations. I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.

When Islam was introduced by Muhammed (PBUH), the situation for women was very much improved.

But, and here's the main thing, they were NEVER made equals.

No matter how much you argue how Islam improved the situation for women back then, it is still not a religion that have room for equality between the sexes.

You see, the Quran is the words of Allah, and thus infallible. Islam can't really change over time.

Let me address your points regarding the Ayatollahs and Israel: I think you are quite right. Sucking countries like Iraq and Iran dry for resources will move them towards some way to fight for independence, meddling in their internal affairs likewise.

That I think you're right about this analysis, doesn't mean I for one second support or condone a regime in a country like Iran eg.

Of course USA needs to attack Iran. But not with military means. The attack needs to be a democracy effort, over a longer period. Trying to influence Iran becoming more secular.

Once again, as I stated before: Just because someone is against USA, doesn't give them some carte blanche. Everyone is equally accountable.

I think G W Bush is a really bad president, he excells in mediocrisy.

Ahmadinejad is much more intelligent. But due to his ideological beliefs, he makes Bush seems like the best president in the history in comparison.

Just look at what Ahmadinejad has accomplished:
*He promised less corruption. Did it happen? No.
*Iran's economy is going to shit, despite the oil.
*Foreign relations are fcuking up. Of course the Iranians will vote him out of office.

Bush is shit. But Ahmadinejad, he's a liability. Lets all hope that the good Iranian people elects a good president.

-Hedge

[Thin Lizzy]

So jaguarenterprises are you going to accept the points you made previously are ficticious or are you going to provide some EVIDENCE? Let me guess... you'll just continue spreading false truths right?

Most left-wingers like Jag just parrot what they read on left-wing kook blogs. What you see on those blogs can be summarized in one sentence: Everything is America's and Israel's fault.

So, when someone like you confronts them with actual facts that contradict their bs, they crawl back into the closet.

[240 is Back]

Most left-wingers like Jag just parrot what they read on left-wing kook blogs. What you see on those blogs can be summarized in one sentence: Everything is America's and Israel's fault.

who the fck brought up israel?

i hate it when people try to discredit a speaker by just randomly throwing in israel to conjure up thought associations with the holocaust, then suddenly anyone who disagrees with you is a doubter and cricified in the media.

keep that israel shit out of debates.

[Dos Equis]

Most left-wingers like Jag just parrot what they read on left-wing kook blogs. What you see on those blogs can be summarized in one sentence: Everything is America's and Israel's fault.

So, when someone like you confronts them with actual facts that contradict their bs, they crawl back into the closet.

True, true. 

[Old_Rooster]

Most left-wingers like Jag just parrot what they read on left-wing kook blogs. What you see on those blogs can be summarized in one sentence: Everything is America's and Israel's fault.

So, when someone like you confronts them with actual facts that contradict their bs, they crawl back into the closet.

Sure feels nice inside to wake up in the morning loving your country instead of hating it and blaming it for all the worlds problems.  Heck, if i felt that way, i'd move.
But hell, the united states of america is like living in disney world compared to the rest of the world.

Wake up folks, you could be canadian! *shudder*

[24KT]

When Islam was introduced by Muhammed (PBUH), the situation for women was very much improved.

But, and here's the main thing, they were NEVER made equals.

Women have NEVER been made equals in ANY culture, ...including our own. We all have a long way to go.
The only possible exception I can think of from the annals of ancient history was the society of Crete

No matter how much you argue how Islam improved the situation for women back then, it is still not a religion that have room for equality between the sexes.

I completely agree with you

You see, the Quran is the words of Allah, and thus infallible. Islam can't really change over time.

{LOL} Who knows? ...perhaps one day they may even follow the Christian lead whereby the infallible word is subject to interpretation where conveniently expeditious. 

Let me address your points regarding the Ayatollahs and Israel: I think you are quite right. Sucking countries like Iraq and Iran dry for resources will move them towards some way to fight for independence, meddling in their internal affairs likewise.

That I think you're right about this analysis, doesn't mean I for one second support or condone a regime in a country like Iran eg.

My observation or understanding of the situation also does not necessarily mean I support or condone the regime either, ...however, I'm not about to swallow wholesale the preposterous lie that hostility is based on 'jealousy'.

I think potential problems can be averted by refraining to meddle in their affairs with such myopic and ill-thought strategies destined to fail, and produce repercussions of an even more unwanted nature.

Of course USA needs to attack Iran. But not with military means. The attack needs to be a democracy effort, over a longer period. Trying to influence Iran becoming more secular.

That would certainly be a wiser approach, ...however, I doubt the current leaders possess the wisdom to do this without creating even more problems for the region or it's own citizens

Once again, as I stated before: Just because someone is against USA, doesn't give them some carte blanche. Everyone is equally accountable.

I think G W Bush is a really bad president, he excells in mediocrisy.

Ahmadinejad is much more intelligent. But due to his ideological beliefs, he makes Bush seems like the best president in the history in comparison.

I don't know about that... I think the annals of history will not be kind to Bush

Just look at what Ahmadinejad has accomplished:
*He promised less corruption. Did it happen? No.
*Iran's economy is going to shit, despite the oil.
*Foreign relations are fcuking up. Of course the Iranians will vote him out of office.

Alot of that has to do with pressure mounted from the west, ...but what can one expect from a hard right leader?
We all know what colossal screw-ups hard right conservatives are. {lol} 

Bush is shit. But Ahmadinejad, he's a liability. Lets all hope that the good Iranian people elects a good president.

-Hedge

The challenge here is that whatever the west opposes for Islamic countries tends to be vigourously embraced by their populace. Iran was not fundamentalist until they rejected the wholesale corruption, and the brutal despotic dictator regime put in place by the CIA.

I believe allowing a society to develop on it's own without interference will lead to co-operation in everyone's overall best interests, ...unfortunately, some countries have been so mentally imprisoned by a legacy that dictates they must succeed on the backs of others and at the expense of others. Mutual co-operation is so foreign a concept to them, and the legacy of racism that victimizes them, creates a moral disconnect, when determining what is acceptable when dealing with other countries. And they unfortunately rally their populations accordingly in order to discourage or curtail any natural dissent from within their own population for any crimes that may be on the agenda. Then they're shocked to discover that not everyone wants to bow down and worship at their feet... imagine that! 

[militarymuscle69]

women aren't equal

[loco]

who the fck brought up israel?

What nation have I glorified?

Many of you have no true knowledge of the countries or cultures you speak of.

I am all for women's rights, however, I do not believe aggressive wars waged against others has been conducted for that reason. You talk about islam being so backward, ...and I won't disagree, but I will say at one time, Islam was the most progressive and civilized when it came to women's rights for the longest time... far longer than western cultures. The brand of Islamic Fundamentalism that we see today, is a direct result of colonial empires messing around in the internal politics of those nations. I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.

[Decker]

....But Ahmadinejad, he's a liability. Lets all hope that the good Iranian people elects a good president.

-Hedge

Ahmadinejad is not Iran's supreme leader.  He is second in command to Ali Khamenei.  That is the man we have to worry about.  Ahmadinejad answers to Ali Khamenei.  Iran has secular aspects to its political organization but the religious people still have final word.