Author Topic: FAITH HEALING  (Read 5358 times)

Oldschool Flip

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FAITH HEALING
« on: April 26, 2007, 11:23:32 AM »
IMO, this has got to be one of the biggest scams that is NOT a criminal offense. Christians who are desperate for cures form ailments that are life threating or disabling, are lured into thinking that some shcmoe will lay his hands on you and cure you from your disease (I detest Benny Hinn the most). You even have Churches that reject medical help because they so believe that their faith will cure illness.

Of every story where someone "miraculously" was cured, there are hundred of thousands whom haven't. I would think that God would want to cure them all because then that would at least give some sort of evidence that there might be a God.

Thoughts?

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2007, 12:01:04 PM »
There is so much we really don't know about medicine.

Where science, medicine, religion, and positive human spirit/enthusiasm meet - that's a pretty complex place.

Wikidudeman

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2007, 03:01:36 PM »
Oldschool Flip

I want you to watch this Youtube video. This is a video of James Randi exposing "faith healer" Peter Popoff. He was a hugely famous "faith healer" during the 1980's until he was exposed by James Randi.

It's only about 4 minutes. Watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y&mode=related&search=



Oldschool Flip

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2007, 07:14:50 PM »
Oldschool Flip

I want you to watch this Youtube video. This is a video of James Randi exposing "faith healer" Peter Popoff. He was a hugely famous "faith healer" during the 1980's until he was exposed by James Randi.

It's only about 4 minutes. Watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y&mode=related&search=



Thanks for the clip! I've always wished that these "healers" would be tried as felons because of the BS that they do to people. Can you imagine if someone who had cancer refused treatment after being healed by one of these assholes?

Loco any thoughts?

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2007, 06:15:24 AM »
i would argue that psyic ability is real. if you consider remote viewing and telepathy psyic ability. if randi took stats then i think sheldrake would have the prize.

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2007, 07:19:21 AM »
Thanks for the clip! I've always wished that these "healers" would be tried as felons because of the BS that they do to people. Can you imagine if someone who had cancer refused treatment after being healed by one of these assholes?

Loco any thoughts?

I agree with you, and many Christians will agree with you.  These "healers" hurt people and give Christianity a bad name. 

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2007, 11:24:54 AM »
I agree with you, and many Christians will agree with you.  These "healers" hurt people and give Christianity a bad name. 

Agree. 



 
R

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2007, 11:34:22 AM »

Oldschool Flip

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2007, 01:44:57 PM »
i would argue that psyic ability is real. if you consider remote viewing and telepathy psyic ability. if randi took stats then i think sheldrake would have the prize.
But stats from one person is not proof. If it were true, he should take James Randi up on the million dollar offer. That would more than benefit his research.

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2007, 02:10:45 PM »
"There’s a problem here. The sample size was small on both trials, just 63 people for the controlled telephone experiment and 50 for the email, and only four of the subjects were actually filmed in the phone study and five in the email. This gives cause for some skepticism. In addition, until a completed paper has been thoroughly vetted, the actual protocol will need to be viewed with some doubt, as well.

Mark my words – next will be tom-toms, then ouija boards, followed by smoke signals… Sheldrake is the perennial new-farce originator of parapsychology."

sounds like some real solid, factual arguments there. read the research yourself, sample size was small, and results were much higher then chance, and what is normally accepted.

i like randi after reading through his website that you provided. i like his rational approach. however, what about stargate? government released documents, and controlled studies? im not saying you can talk to the dead but i beleive that telepathy and remote viewing are possible. also, in dean radins new book, many studies are discussed, from pear, and other research facilities with random number generators which defy chance.

also, quantum physics can account at least theoretically for telepathy and remote viewing.

i hate how they try to make everyone sound delusional, and being a quack, its cynacism not skepticism.

so the point of that post was to show that the power of the experiment was low(as would be expected due to the nature) and they offer no real alternate theory, not even super-psi which is admittance of ESP. also, the results still defy chance by a good margin with stringent alpha levels.

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2007, 02:22:02 PM »
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/Dace_amazing3.htm

"Dawkins’ sleight-of-hand notwithstanding, according to the rules of Randi’s competition, if a psychic ability is proven, he must pay up. Randi stated to me that a preliminary test would have to yield a probability of one in a thousand that the results were due to chance. After passing the preliminary, the investigator could commence with the formal test, which would have to yield a probability against chance of one in a million. As Dr. Radin notes, a meta-analysis of all ganzfeld telepathy experiments up to 1997 revealed a probability of a million billion to one. So if Randi is true to his word, it ought to be possible to perform an experiment that would garner the prize. Of course, it would take a huge number of sessions to demonstrate such a high level of improbability. In the end, the million dollars might do nothing more than pay for the experiment. But it would be worth it for no other reason than to put an end to allegations that the unclaimed prize is itself evidence against psychic phenomena"



"Randi agreed he might have to pay up someday. But Dawkins had a trick up his sleeve. If a “psychic” phenomenon turns out to be real, then by definition it is physical and therefore not really psychic after all, and thus Randi still shouldn’t have to pay. "

there are also numerous other studies im not sure if you aware of that would win/pass the test but would take time and lots of money.


Wikidudeman

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2007, 02:32:25 PM »
however, what about stargate?

Terminated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project


also, in dean radins new book, many studies are discussed, from pear, and other research facilities with random number generators which defy chance.

Pear, Shut down by Princeton.

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/future.html

http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW06-07/
04-1108/notebook.html#Notebook8

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2007, 02:49:26 PM »
i dont understand the purpose of your posts ???. i know stargate was terminated, it still produced some good results.


also, pear produced some amazing results. i was not aware they shut down, but it seems they are trying to make it bigger, it also doesnt say why it was shutdown.perhaps due to lack of funding since due to  the edgy nature of the research(they were open for 30 years). neither of your posts have anything to due with the quality of the research or if these experiences, phenomenon exist.

they are also operating at a new facility according to your link. still, doesnt have anything to due with the topic at hand, nor is it evidence/argument either way.

adress my sheldrake post, and my link if you'd like.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19081

"In regard to the shutting down of the Stargate Project in the mid-1990s, Utts said, "I think the end of the Cold War changed our priorities. I think the scientific work should be funded by the government -- just like any other exploration into interesting scientific questions. We don't understand the mechanism yet, so I think it's difficult to justify continued use of operational remote viewing."

i assume that you know most research will end at sometime.

Wikidudeman

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2007, 02:56:27 PM »
i dont understand the purpose of your posts ???. i know stargate was terminated, it still produced some good results.

No it didn't. If it did it would never of been shut down. It would of had great benefits for fighting terrorism.


also, pear produced some amazing results.

No it didn't.



adress my sheldrake post, and my link if you'd like.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19081

"In regard to the shutting down of the Stargate Project in the mid-1990s, Utts said, "I think the end of the Cold War changed our priorities. I think the scientific work should be funded by the government -- just like any other exploration into interesting scientific questions. We don't understand the mechanism yet, so I think it's difficult to justify continued use of operational remote viewing."

i assume that you know most research will end at sometime.

What do you want me to address? Utts thinks psychics are real. So what?

Here is a study she did showing a small statistical anomaly slightly above chance.
http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/91rmp.html

Here are the critical comments from her peers.
http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/91a-menu.html

Let me say though that I won't get into an exchange with you about this. I know where that would lead based on my previous exchange with you, and the only thing that I would accomplish is wasting my time.

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 03:24:08 PM »
so your saying that pear laboratories remained open and funded for 30 years and produced no results? dude you are stuck in your ways, its obvious. i post an article with dawkins admitting it, with sheldrake showing it, and other sources and you post a critique about a study i never heard. the sheldrake "critique" wasnt a critique at all, and if you read pubmed, many studies have methodological flaws that are similar or more glaring. its impossible to make a perfect study, due to the nature of the beast.


also, what about the ganzfeld experiments?

i can also grab studies from radins book that have to published if you want to look through them.



i think its ignorant to read the research and not conclude that there is some basis to telepathy, even dawkins has admitted it.

how much have you actually read?

i would venture that the hesitation to accept this phenomenon is due to a lack of a mechanism by which it operates. however, i beleive quantum physics can account for it.


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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2007, 03:31:59 PM »


Let me say though that I won't get into an exchange with you about this. I know where that would lead based on my previous exchange with you, and the only thing that I would accomplish is wasting my time.

dude get a life seriously, what topic do you want to debate? what is your profession.


i can discuss, physics, medicine, psychology, religion, nutrition,natural health,neuroscience intelligently.

you wont get into an exchange because you clearly lose the argument everytime, to the point were you challenge me to post on other boards, because the other board i posted on was "advanced" enough. however, in actuality it is much more advanced then the jref site. post in the lyceum, see if you can keep up with some of the global mods there who have phd's or multiple degrees.

you presented no arguments in this debate, and think that because pear closed after 30 years it somehow means it never produced. when logically 30 years of research would indicate the opposite if you knew how research worked. no one is going to pay or fund nonsensical research, whether gov,university or self-sufficient. your afraid of people with alternate views.

why would dawkins agree with me, why is there thousands of articles saying the opposite of you. also, your critiques are common with much research, especially with something so controversial. you have again, not supported your position, nor have you offered alternate theories or suggestions.

so yes based on the above and the arguments you presented, unless you read some more you are wasting your time.

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2007, 03:41:30 PM »
OWNED HAHAHA

The trouble with Wiki
 
"The idea of a large, user-contributed encyclopedia is, in principle, a good one. But the implementation of the largest such effort to date, the Wikipedia, is an excellent example of how good ideas can go dreadfully wrong.

Authors of Wikipedia articles are anonymous in many cases, so expertise in the topic is not vetted for accuracy or depth. Worse, for controversial topics and for biographies of living persons, experts are specifically asked not to contribute to the articles. I discovered this when attempting to correct factual errors in the entry page on my name, and for the Institute of Noetic Sciences. I've been asked not to edit these pages, even though I am arguably the expert on me, and an expert on IONS, because it violates Wikipedia's guidelines.

The most persistent editors on Wikipedia, by the way, largely seem to be 20-something students who are riding high on arrogance, because like all kids, they're suffering under the delusion that they know everything. (I recall this state of mind quite clearly from when I was 20-something.) For you young folks out there, believe me, that grandiosity dissolves with life experience. The fact is that nothing is certain, especially what science pretends to know.

Wikipedia's absurd guidelines means that for topics of interest to many people, namely controversies, the articles are guaranteed to be of poor quality. What a ridiculous state of affairs this good idea has come to, one that very effectively does one thing well -- it perpetuates stupidity."

this also brings me back to the point when you posted a picture of true anus as a natural bodybuilder bwhahahahahahah. you definitly did your research in that area too. tell me do you research other topics as throughly? haha.

watch out everyone, "wikidudeman" is the sole proprietor of knowledge and information, and is wasting his time with us mere mortals who can only hope to view the edge of the universe or use faulty logic.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2007, 11:42:24 AM »
i didn't read all the responces...keep it short ya guys  >:(

anyhow...i forget whether i saw it on some science show or read about it but (i cant believe i'm saying this) but the power of prayer has been documented..people that have others praying from em seem to heal faster..

now this could be nothing more than the power of positive thinking knowing that people care about you..
carpe` vaginum!

Wikidudeman

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2007, 12:38:03 PM »
i didn't read all the responces...keep it short ya guys  >:(

anyhow...i forget whether i saw it on some science show or read about it but (i cant believe i'm saying this) but the power of prayer has been documented..people that have others praying from em seem to heal faster..

now this could be nothing more than the power of positive thinking knowing that people care about you..


There have been numerous studies dealing with the affects of prayer on the sick. Most modern studies that have less methodological flaws show no effect of prayer on the sick. A recent landmark $2.4 million study called the "Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer" which was published in 2006 in the American Heart Journal actually showed that prayer had a negative effect on those recovering from heart surgery.

Here's the study...
PMID: 16569567 (Just type that into google)
Quote
CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

Here's a link to the New York times article on it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/
31pray.html?ex=1301461200&en=4acf338be4900000&ei=5088



It's likely that the recorded 'negative' effects of prayer were some sort of statistical anomaly however it's pretty clear from this study that Prayer had no effect on those recovering from heart surgery. One important difference between this study and previous studies that have shown positive effects of prayer is that the people being prayed for who showed no sign of recovery didn't know they were being prayed for therefore the placebo effect had no bearing on it as in previous studies.

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2007, 03:09:12 PM »
what about all of dossey's studies.i guess that one study conclusively shows that no more research is needed in the area even though there are numerous studies stating otherwise. with the people that are actually prayed for(unknown to the prayers) recovered 10% faster. i would definitely agree that self prayer helps, i would relate it to optimism and the placebo effect.


praying for others may not.

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2007, 03:17:36 PM »
1. American Journal of Public Health. 1997.
Study reports the results of a 28 year follow-up study of 5,000 adults involved in the Berkeley Human Population Laboratory Scheme. Mortality for persons attending religious services once a week or more often was almost 25% lower than for persons attending religious services less frequently; for women, the mortality rate was reduce by 35%.

2. International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine. 1998.
The relationship between religious activities and blood pressure was examined in a 6 year prospective study of 4,000 older adults. Among those subjects who attended religious services once a week or more and prayed once a day or more, the likelihood of diastolic hypertension was 40% lower than among those who attended services and prayed only occasionally.

3. International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine. 1997. Findings suggest that persons who attend church frequently have stronger immune systems than less frequent attenders, and may help explain why both better mental and better physical health are characteristic of frequent church attenders.

4. American Journal of Psychiatry. 1998.
Found that depressed patients who had a strong intrinsic religious faith recovered over 70% faster from depression than those with less strong faith.

5. American Journal of Public Health. 1998.
In a 5 year study of 1,931 older residents of Marin County, California, people who attended religious services were 36% less likely to die during the follow up period.

6. American Journal of Psychiatry. 1990.
Reported that among 33 elderly woman hospitalised with hip fracture, greater religiousness was associated with less depression and longer walking distances at the time of hospital discharge.

7. My own somewhat amateurish bit of research. September 2002.
Scanning through the Methodist Hymns & Psalms one Sunday morning during the offering I happened to realise that Charles Wesley was 81 years old when he died. I began to wonder about the age of other hymn writers and how their ages might compare to the life expectancy of that period. So over the next few days I went through the 823 hymns in my own hymn book and discovered that the average age of all lyricists from 1600 to 1938 was 69. By researching further, I discovered that the overall average life expectancy during the same period was just 35. However, if you were to survive up to the age of fifteen then your life expectancy rose dramatically to 51. Excluding the fact that many hymn writers may have come from the better classes, it is still remarkable that this particular group of people should live, on average, eighteen years longer than was generally expected amongst the normal population of the time.

But what of so-called "distant prayer" -- often referred to as "intercessory prayer," as in Krucoff's studies?

"Intercessory prayer is prayer geared toward doing something -- interrupting a heart attack or accomplishing healing," says Krucoff, who wears numerous hats at Duke and at the local Veterans Affairs Medical Center. An associate professor of medicine in cardiology, Krucoff also directs the Ischemia Monitoring Core Laboratory and co-directs the MANTRA (Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Teachings) prayer study project at Duke. Long-time nurse practitioner Suzanne Crater co-directs that study.

Noetic trainings? "Those are complementary therapies that do not involve tangible elements," says Krucoff. "There are no herbs, no massages, no acupressure."

The goal of prayer therapy is to accomplish healing, yet "there are a lot of questions about what healing means," Krucoff tells WebMD. "At this level of this work, there are many philosophical debates that can emerge. The basic concept is this -- if you add prayer to standard, high-tech treatment -- if you motivate a spiritual force or energy, does it actually make people better, heal faster, get out of the hospital faster, make them need fewer pills, suffer less?"

Roy L. and 150 other patients took part in MANTRA's pilot study. All suffer from acute heart disease, and all needed emergency angioplasty.

The stress of the procedure -- because it is done on patients who are awake -- has its own negative effects on the body, Krucoff tells WebMD. "The heart beats faster, beats harder, blood vessels are constricted, blood is thicker and clots more easily. All that's bad." But if an intervention could mediate that stress, it would potentially be a pretty useful adjunct for people coming in for angioplasty, he says.

In the pilot study, the patients were assigned to a control group or to touch therapy, stress relaxation, imagery, or distant prayer. A therapist came to the bedsides of patients in the touch, stress-relaxation, and imagery groups, but not to the bedsides in the control or distant-prayer groups. Like Roy, people in those two groups didn't know whether prayers were being sent their way or not.

Those early results "were very suggestive that there may be a benefit to these therapies," Krucoff tells WebMD.

Krucoff and Crater are now involved in the MANTRA trial's second phase, which will ultimately enroll 1,500 patients undergoing angioplasty at nine clinical centers around the country.

Dr Van der Does5 dismisses the effects of intercessory prayer because they would be indistinguishable empirically from the effects of clairvoyance and telepathy, which he implies are nonsense. (He presumably means not clairvoyance or telepathy, which are forms of anomalous cognition, but psychokinesis, the anomalous perturbation of distant events.) However, there is considerable evidence that neither telepathy nor psychokinesis is nonsense,6 in which case the indistinguishability between prayer and psychokinesis would not invalidate prayer.

Dr Sandweiss3 also refers dismissively to psychokinesis, apparently unaware of the evidence favoring this phenomenon. For example, in Foundations of Physics, one of physics' most prestigious journals, Radin and Nelson7 reported a meta-analysis of 832 studies from 68 investigators that involved the distant influence of human consciousness on microelectronic systems.

They found the results to be "robust and repeatable." In their opinion, "Unless critics want to allege wholesale collusion among more than sixty experimenters or suggest a methodological artifact common to . . . hundred[s of] experiments conducted over nearly three decades, there is no escaping the conclusion that [these] effects are indeed possible."

i cant find any of dosseys shit, but he found a positive effect of prayer, and positive effect of distant prayer on health.the study was repeated twice if im not mistaken, once and duke.




Wikidudeman

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2007, 07:19:39 PM »
Studies 1-7 of what you pasted are irrelevant to whether anonymous intercessory prayer helps.

Everything you posted seems to have been plagiarized from here...
http://www.ci-methodist.org.uk/Jersey/JerseyMethodist/healing_document.htm

and here...
www.theevidence.org/episodes/episode2-studies.php

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2007, 07:36:52 PM »
what do you mean plagiarized?

of course i didnt write that shit out, i was looking for dosseys shit and that came up. my point was that there have been positive experiments and yours doesnt rule it out.

it has nothing to do with god anyway. if distant prayer does have an effect it would likely be due to something similar to telepathy. there are a few studies at IONS(not positive) in which peoples thoughts correspond to eachs other measured via PET,EEG etc..


you think i would write this?

"Those early results "were very suggestive that there may be a benefit to these therapies," Krucoff tells WebMD."

again i dont see your point, i presented an argument and you presented rhetoric, again.

are you suggesting that all the previous studies are null due to this one study?

again i dont beleive its because of good, but mainly placebo, optimism and increased coping.

haider

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2007, 08:20:57 PM »
Hi Johnny.  ;)
follow the arrows

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Re: FAITH HEALING
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2007, 05:51:50 AM »
Hi Johnny.  ;)

god i hope not, ive read some of jonny's stuff and he was spot on about some things and could at least form an argument.

haider, look out and see the edge of universe ;) :D. even though there is or may be matter past our particle horizon and the universe is likely a torus.