HCG before/after...I now say after.

[Arnold jr]

We've debated this topic back and forth on here for a long time now. I once firmly stood on the side of "yes, use it on cycle" but since the first of this year I've changed my thinking...some of you know why.

I saw this on DP's thread, and this is what he said about using it on cycle...it cracked me up and I thought some of you might have something to say about it...either way, I agree.

"Sounds ridiculous. I've said this before, taking HCG while on Testosterone injections is analogous to throwing sand on the beach thinking it's adding a noticeable amount."

[2ND COMING]

never used hgh, or researched much

simply, i keep hearing 'reserve hgh, to stack with slin, while off an aas cycle

[delta9mda]

never used hgh, or researched much

simply, i keep hearing 'reserve hgh, to stack with slin, while off an aas cycle

he said hcg not hgh

[bassmaster]

We've debated this topic back and forth on here for a long time now. I once firmly stood on the side of "yes, use it on cycle" but since the first of this year I've changed my thinking...some of you know why.

I saw this on DP's thread, and this is what he said about using it on cycle...it cracked me up and I thought some of you might have something to say about it...either way, I agree.

"Sounds ridiculous. I've said this before, taking HCG while on Testosterone injections is analogous to throwing sand on the beach thinking it's adding a noticeable amount."

i see how that would be, but i still would use during as it makes for great money shots!lol

does dp suggest using it as part of pct for the first week?

[TNTBOOM]

After using it for 2 weeks durng my cycle i too say after.....
 

[HYDROLICS]

When AAS are put into a male body, the body's natural negative feedback loops cause the body to shut down its own production of testosterone via shutdown of the HPTA . High levels of AASs that mimic the body's natural testosterone trigger the hypothalamus to shut down its production of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. Without GnRH the pituitary gland stops releasing luteinizing hormone (LH). LH normally travels from the pituitary via the blood stream to the testes where it triggers the production and release of testosterone. Without LH, the testes shut down their production of testosterone, causing testicular atrophy ("shrunken balls").

 hCG mimics LH and helps restore / maintain testosterone production in the testes. As such, hCG is commonly used during and after steroid cycles to maintain and restore testicular size as well as endogenous testosterone production. However, if hCG is used for too long and in too high a dose, the resulting rise in natural testosterone will eventually inhibit its own production via negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary.

So if we take hcg for a "preservation" of leydig cells during a cycle you wouldn't see any results until you started PCT, and at that point you would be in great shape to make a speedy recovery IMO.

either way it is debatable and I honestly haven't looked into it enough to make any serious claims.

Anyone else??

[4thAD]

When AAS are put into a male body, the body's natural negative feedback loops cause the body to shut down its own production of testosterone via shutdown of the HPTA . High levels of AASs that mimic the body's natural testosterone trigger the hypothalamus to shut down its production of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. Without GnRH the pituitary gland stops releasing luteinizing hormone (LH). LH normally travels from the pituitary via the blood stream to the testes where it triggers the production and release of testosterone. Without LH, the testes shut down their production of testosterone, causing testicular atrophy ("shrunken balls").

 hCG mimics LH and helps restore / maintain testosterone production in the testes. As such, hCG is commonly used during and after steroid cycles to maintain and restore testicular size as well as endogenous testosterone production. However, if hCG is used for too long and in too high a dose, the resulting rise in natural testosterone will eventually inhibit its own production via negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary.

So if we take hcg for a "preservation" of leydig cells during a cycle you wouldn't see any results until you started PCT, and at that point you would be in great shape to make a speedy recovery IMO.

either way it is debatable and I honestly haven't looked into it enough to make any serious claims.

Anyone else??

^^Absolutely agreed! On top of that HCG is suppressive, so why would you want to use it after cycle? Your only suppressing your system even further. HCG for  PCT is old school thinking... Just my 2cc's, but even the good doctor(FreakfestMD) agrees with the use of HCG during cycle!

[Overload]

i only use it the last 4 weeks of the cycle and end it with that last shot of test...then i do PCT.

[freakfestMD]

"Sounds ridiculous. I've said this before, taking HCG while on Testosterone injections is analogous to throwing sand on the beach thinking it's adding a noticeable amount."

This represents flawed logic.

High levels of intratesticular testosterone, secreted by the leydig cells, are necessary for spermatogenesis. The exogenous administration of testosterone and its metabolite estrogen will suppress both GnRH production by the hypothalamus and LH production by the pituitary gland and subsequently suppress testicular testosterone production. High levels of testosterone are needed inside the testis and this can never be accomplished by oral or parenteral administration of androgens.

Through its effects on the HPTA, AAS-induced suppression of testosterone production by the leydig cells will result in a deficient spermatogenesis, and lead to an irreversible death of testicular cells.

The choice is, as always, yours to make.  You can protect your gonads throughout the cycle, or try to salvage what's left at the end.  The choice seems obvious to me.

[2ND COMING]

wow i thought i read hgh, not hcg

anyhow, whats the point of hcg on cycle?

discuss

[trab]

wow i thought i read hgh, not hcg

anyhow, whats the point of hcg on cycle?

discuss

It's become popular to use like, 200-500iu  2x wk   to PREVENT Atrophy (and it sounds like even actual "cell Death" via a starvation mechanism  'cording to FreakFestMD)

There has allways been a lot of diff ideas on use of this stuff. Ive read up to 6000iu shot in WAR '96.
ALso the 100iu every couple Hr protocol. (What a pain )

Big doses? IMO if you've run long and hard and see/ feel a need.

The stuff packs a punch.

[busyB]

High levels of intratesticular testosterone, secreted by the leydig cells, are necessary for spermatogenesis. The exogenous administration of testosterone and its metabolite estrogen will suppress both GnRH production by the hypothalamus and LH production by the pituitary gland and subsequently suppress testicular testosterone production. High levels of testosterone are needed inside the testis and this can never be accomplished by oral or parenteral administration of androgens.

Through its effects on the HPTA, AAS-induced suppression of testosterone production by the leydig cells will result in a deficient spermatogenesis, and lead to an irreversible death of testicular cells.

The choice is, as always, yours to make.  You can protect your gonads throughout the cycle, or try to salvage what's left at the end.  The choice seems obvious to me.


So, if I am running ((starting Monday  ))
wk 1-20 Test Cyp 600mg wk
wk 1-15 Deca 400mg wk
wk 14-20 T Bol 40 mg

...it would be best to run Hch while on? What would be the best dose/admin? I would be injecting something every day of the week, damn!

[trab]

I dont know how supressive T Bol is, but your runing it to the end? (14-20?) Is that common?
This is not like var or Primo?

HCG can go w/ a slin pin.  250-500ius  2x wk is whats most commonly discussed. Ive used anywhere from 250-2000iu shots.

I might back the Deca down. I just dont like more than 50%:Test. One time problem w/ that is enough.
If your not into sex, then you might experiment w/ high Deca doses, or add Dosinex (sp?)
No wood will change your feelings about deca.

[Luv2Hurt]

This represents flawed logic.

Agreed Dave seems out there on this one.  Wonder if he really thought the whole thing through?

[Ledd]

High levels of intratesticular testosterone, secreted by the leydig cells, are necessary for spermatogenesis. The exogenous administration of testosterone and its metabolite estrogen will suppress both GnRH production by the hypothalamus and LH production by the pituitary gland and subsequently suppress testicular testosterone production. High levels of testosterone are needed inside the testis and this can never be accomplished by oral or parenteral administration of androgens.

Through its effects on the HPTA, AAS-induced suppression of testosterone production by the leydig cells will result in a deficient spermatogenesis, and lead to an irreversible death of testicular cells.

The choice is, as always, yours to make.  You can protect your gonads throughout the cycle, or try to salvage what's left at the end.  The choice seems obvious to me.


So, if I am running ((starting Monday  ))
wk 1-20 Test Cyp 600mg wk
wk 1-15 Deca 400mg wk
wk 14-20 T Bol 40 mg

...it would be best to run Hch while on? What would be the best dose/admin? I would be injecting something every day of the week, damn!

I've read you want to inject 250-500iu every 5 days.  I would start with the lower end of that dosage since it seems the "more is better" way of thinking doesnt apply to hcg.

[busyB]

I dont know how supressive T Bol is, but your runing it to the end? (14-20?) Is that common?
This is not like var or Primo?

HCG can go w/ a slin pin.  250-500ius  2x wk is whats most commonly discussed. Ive used anywhere from 250-2000iu shots.

I might back the Deca down. I just dont like more than 50%:Test. One time problem w/ that is enough.
If your not into sex, then you might experiment w/ high Deca doses, or add Dosinex (sp?)
No wood will change your feelings about deca.

I meant that T Bol will be at the beginning, sorry....

As for Deca dick, we will wait and see but have a high sex drive as it stands but have used 400mg and had no problems. I have researched that 2:1 ratio test to deca.

As far as pins, thought most shot hcg intramuscular?? Wouldn't mind slin pins.

[conan1071]

Where can i get hcg without all the money for the doctors tests

[HYDROLICS]

the internet

[trab]

I meant that T Bol will be at the beginning, sorry....

As for Deca dick, we will wait and see but have a high sex drive as it stands but have used 400mg and had no problems. I have researched that 2:1 ratio test to deca.

As far as pins, thought most shot hcg intramuscular?? Wouldn't mind slin pins.

Unless you got real thick skin everwhere, you ought to be able to find a spot to IM a 1/2" slin pin.
Regardless, it can go subcut (just Under the skin) also. So save the big needle shots for juice .

[Peptide Wizard]

We've debated this topic back and forth on here for a long time now. I once firmly stood on the side of "yes, use it on cycle" but since the first of this year I've changed my thinking...some of you know why.

I saw this on DP's thread, and this is what he said about using it on cycle...it cracked me up and I thought some of you might have something to say about it...either way, I agree.

"Sounds ridiculous. I've said this before, taking HCG while on Testosterone injections is analogous to throwing sand on the beach thinking it's adding a noticeable amount."

Surprising coming from you AJ. I  allways said both; one week low dose every 4 weeks; and high dose PC.

Allways worked for my "athletes"....


"... mom, look post-protocol bignuts".

[Arnold jr]

This represents flawed logic.

High levels of intratesticular testosterone, secreted by the leydig cells, are necessary for spermatogenesis. The exogenous administration of testosterone and its metabolite estrogen will suppress both GnRH production by the hypothalamus and LH production by the pituitary gland and subsequently suppress testicular testosterone production. High levels of testosterone are needed inside the testis and this can never be accomplished by oral or parenteral administration of androgens.

Through its effects on the HPTA, AAS-induced suppression of testosterone production by the leydig cells will result in a deficient spermatogenesis, and lead to an irreversible death of testicular cells.

The choice is, as always, yours to make.  You can protect your gonads throughout the cycle, or try to salvage what's left at the end.  The choice seems obvious to me.

Dave's reply

"Actually, sometimes when bbers take HIGH levels of TESTOSTERONE, their circulating test levels are so high that the TESTOSTERONE "IN THE TESTES" is actually high enough to stimulate spermatogenesis. What's my evidence? How many guys do you know that got their gf or wife pregnant while "ON GEAR". TOO MANY!"

[Peptide Wizard]

Dave's reply

"Actually, sometimes when bbers take HIGH levels of TESTOSTERONE, their circulating test levels are so high that the TESTOSTERONE "IN THE TESTES" is actually high enough to stimulate spermatogenesis. What's my evidence? How many guys do you know that got their gf or wife pregnant while "ON GEAR". TOO MANY!"

Yup. Also heard many times of an intra cycle testicular shrunkage which somewhat "resolved" after a good test injection (bad cycle with peaks and valleys but fact remains)


Personally never beleive in that "permanent Apotosis" theory. Unless you go crazy on doses and timespan, androgen "therapy" is all comparable to contraception theory for women, no more, no less. How many women became "sterile" from Ortho?

[freakfestMD]

How many guys do you know that got their gf or wife pregnant while "ON GEAR". TOO MANY!"

In med school, I used gear without knowldege of hcg, anti-'e or PCT (this is 20 years ago).

At that time, I worked as a sperm donor to make extra cash to support my massive food intake (no sh*t--I got $100 bucks cash per load, 1 load per week).  Anyway, I started a cycle, and the lab called me to tell me my last sample showed ZERO sperm.  This was at about 4-6 weeks into the cycle.

Again, if you're going to be in this for a long time, and chances are that you will be, I would be concerned about the cumulative effects on the testes over time.

[Luv2Hurt]

I have to agree with freak here.  Better safe than sorry, I just wish the great Marble was still here he would shoot soooooo many holes in Dave's stance it would be sickening.  And I like Dave.  Man that dude marble was all over this issue like you would not believe. 

Would also love to get Big_O's thoughts on this.  Maybe he will jump in I hope. 

Dave said large doses of test will cause this sperm to be produced while on test, what about a more average dose like 95% of the usual gearheads use?  He used pro BB's as an example, I think we all know that their doses are much higher, not saying they all use a ton but Im sure most use more than the average person would.  For crying out loud Dave still recomends clomid?

[!@#$%]

The only study I've seen says that HCG simulates LH. By injecting large quanitities post-cycle you can shock your HPTA into functioning again. The problem while on cycle and post-cycle is not that you are not producting any LH, but that your body is desensitized to it. A large quanitity post-cycle will shock it. All of this is available from Llewllyn and backed by studies. Hypogonadism is a real disease which has been studied like any other disease, especially with respect to using HCG to combat it.

"Doctors have discovered that when HCG is taken too long or at too high a dose, it can further desensitize the LH receptor". I can't understand why someone can't post a study to back their claims, that HCG protects the testicles during a cycle. I would have to see a study before I would take a chance in further desensitizing my LH receptors during a cycle before I will try it and so far I haven't found one.