Who are the "bad guys"?

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

The ones who are fighting for their god and their country or the ones fighting for oil and money?

[Camel Jockey]

The ones who are fighting for their god and their country or the ones fighting for oil and money?

Both.

[240 is Back]

I'm confused.  Bush TOLD US that he didn't consult with Rumsfeld or Bush 41 before invading Iraq.

But he did as God for advice.

[AE]

I'm confused.  Bush TOLD US that he didn't consult with Rumsfeld or Bush 41 before invading Iraq.

But he did as God for advice.

So, did god give shitty advice or did bush misunderstand the hallucination vision. 

[Dos Equis]

The ones who are fighting for their god and their country or the ones fighting for oil and money?

The foreign terrorists who attacked us on our soil.  The terrorists we are fighting in Afghanistan.  The terrorists we are fighting in Iraq.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

The foreign terrorists who attacked us on our soil.  The terrorists we are fighting in Afghanistan.  The terrorists we are fighting in Iraq.

You really fell for that "terrorist" word.  The government/media propaganda machine did a good job getting you to believe that anyone who opposes the U.S. is a terrorist.  We're not fighting "terrorists" in Iraq, we're fighting people who believe in their religion and their right to get an invading enemy out of their country.  But we want their oil.

[Tre]

I knew it - God fucked up again!

[Dos Equis]

You really fell for that "terrorist" word.  The government/media propaganda machine did a good job getting you to believe that anyone who opposes the U.S. is a terrorist.  We're not fighting "terrorists" in Iraq, we're fighting people who believe in their religion and their right to get an invading enemy out of their country.  But we want their oil.

The insurgents are terrorists.  They don't belong to an Army, they aren't acting on behalf of any government, they murder innocent men, women, and children. 

[headhuntersix]

They would all change their minds had then been shot at.

[240 is Back]

The insurgents are terrorists.  They don't belong to an Army, they aren't acting on behalf of any government, they murder innocent men, women, and children. 

You didn't address the oil

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

The insurgents are terrorists.  They don't belong to an Army, they aren't acting on behalf of any government, they murder innocent men, women, and children. 

"Insurgent," there's another propaganda term you fell for.  Newsflash- there are no insurgents in Iraq.  Because there is no legitimate government there.  The U.S. occupiers are not a legitimate government to Iraqis.  Perhaps the definition will help you understand this:

in·sur·gent      1.   a person who rises in forcible opposition to lawful authority, esp. a person who engages in armed resistance to a government or to the execution of its laws


And as long as you're talking about the soldiers who do not belong to any army, that's the U.S. again!  How many private contractor mercenaries (Blackwater, DynCorp, etc) do we have their doing our killing without any law to oversee them or hold them accountable for their atrocities in killing Iraqi civilians?  Tens of thousands of these mercenaries are contracted by the U.S. government.

[headhuntersix]

And while thats true...the numbers are not tens of thousands. Most are contracted to private firms that need to defend themsleves in order to do business in Iraq. Some are working for Iraqi firms..some the Oil companies and some for the US military. Many of these firms are rebuilding iraq.

[Dos Equis]

"Insurgent," there's another propaganda term you fell for.  Newsflash- there are no insurgents in Iraq.  Because there is no legitimate government there.  The U.S. occupiers are not a legitimate government to Iraqis.  Perhaps the definition will help you understand this:

in·sur·gent      1.   a person who rises in forcible opposition to lawful authority, esp. a person who engages in armed resistance to a government or to the execution of its laws


And as long as you're talking about the soldiers who do not belong to any army, that's the U.S. again!  How many private contractor mercenaries (Blackwater, DynCorp, etc) do we have their doing our killing without any law to oversee them or hold them accountable for their atrocities in killing Iraqi civilians?  Tens of thousands of these mercenaries are contracted by the U.S. government.

There is a legitimate government in Iraq, so the definition of insurgent you provide accurately describes the terrorists who are blowing up Iraqi civilians.

I don't see much of a comparison between the insurgents/terrorists in Iraq and Blackwater et al.  Those guys (Blackwater) aren't murdering women and children.  

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

And while thats true...the numbers are not tens of thousands. Most are contracted to private firms that need to defend themsleves in order to do business in Iraq. Some are working for Iraqi firms..some the Oil companies and some for the US military. Many of these firms are rebuilding iraq.

Yes, it is in the tens of thousands.  "Rebuild Iraq" is code for making as much money as possible for themselves at the expense of the Iraqis.  These aren't humanitarian groups we're taking about.

[headhuntersix]

No..i was refering to contractors..as in Blackwater..private security sense.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

There is a legitimate government in Iraq, so the definition of insurgent you provide accurately describes the terrorists who are blowing up Iraqi civilians.

I don't see much of a comparison between the insurgents/terrorists in Iraq and Blackwater et al.  Those guys (Blackwater) aren't murdering women and children.  

The government is legitimate to U.S. interests, not to Iraqis.

Blackwater guys aren't murdering Iraqi's with impunity?  What law do they follow?  U.S. civial law?  Nope?  Do they face court martial?  Nope.  Those guys are mercenaries who want to live the high action lifestyle of killing people for money.  Here's a nice little Blackwater story for ya:
http://stlawu.typepad.com/theweave_tracy/2007/03/christmas_eve_m.html

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

No..i was refering to contractors..as in Blackwater..private security sense.

"Private security" is the sanitized term for hired killer or mercenary. 

[headhuntersix]

Allegedly..anyway, there has been one guy prosecuted for violations over there. I have read everything i can get my hands on about the private security busniness because they are mercenaries working within a corporate framework and its fascinating.

[AE]

The insurgents are terrorists.  They don't belong to an Army, they aren't acting on behalf of any government, they murder innocent men, women, and children. 

Seems to work both ways.  

CAMP PENDLETON, California (AP) -- A Marine squad leader who led an attack that killed 24 Iraqi civilians shot five men as they stood with their hands up and told comrades to lie about it, a Marine sergeant testified.

Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz said that in the moments after a roadside bomb hit a Humvee in his convoy November 19, 2005, killing a comrade, he saw five men standing by a white car with their hands interlocked behind their heads. The squad leader, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, then fired about six to eight rounds at the men, Dela Cruz testified.

"They were just standing, looking around, had hands up," Dela Cruz said. "Then I saw one of them drop in the middle. I didn't know what was going on, sir. Looked to my left, saw Staff Sergeant Wuterich shooting."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/10/iraq.haditha.ap/index.html

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Allegedly..anyway, there has been one guy prosecuted for violations over there. I have read everything i can get my hands on about the private security busniness because they are mercenaries working within a corporate framework and its fascinating.

A fine example of unchecked "free market" capitalism.  Gives a new meaning to making a corporate killing.

[Dos Equis]

Seems to work both ways.  

CAMP PENDLETON, California (AP) -- A Marine squad leader who led an attack that killed 24 Iraqi civilians shot five men as they stood with their hands up and told comrades to lie about it, a Marine sergeant testified.

Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz said that in the moments after a roadside bomb hit a Humvee in his convoy November 19, 2005, killing a comrade, he saw five men standing by a white car with their hands interlocked behind their heads. The squad leader, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, then fired about six to eight rounds at the men, Dela Cruz testified.

"They were just standing, looking around, had hands up," Dela Cruz said. "Then I saw one of them drop in the middle. I didn't know what was going on, sir. Looked to my left, saw Staff Sergeant Wuterich shooting."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/10/iraq.haditha.ap/index.html

Oh please.  He's being prosecuted.  That's the difference between us and them.  If he was a terrorist he'd be a hero, assuming he didn't kill himself in the process.   

[ieffinhatecardio]

Is there any kind of oversight for these "private security" groups or are they free to do whatever they want? This seems like a frightening prospect if they are allowed total freedom.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Is there any kind of oversight for these "private security" groups or are they free to do whatever they want? This seems like a frightening prospect if they are allowed total freedom.

No oversight, no code of law to follow.  Truly a wild west show for ex-Seals, Special Ops and other assorted killers who want real action.

[240 is Back]

private contractors kick ass.  major ass.  unchecked and hghly trained and funded, they're fcking badasses - we all agree to that, I think.


But, um, why can't they kill the 2500 pricks doing all the damage?

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

But, um, why can't they kill the 2500 pricks doing all the damage?

Why would they attack the U.S. military?