Author Topic: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs  (Read 8734 times)

knny187

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War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« on: May 11, 2007, 11:01:56 AM »
I always wanted to be a military dog handler.  I hold these handlers & their dogs in the highest respect.  The dogs especially, are amazing creatures & during times of war, have saved thousands of their comrade’s lives.

I just wanted to start a thread supporting their efforts, recognizing their importance,...& lastly....remembering those who gave the their lives.

knny187

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2007, 11:03:53 AM »
A Brief History: Vietnam.

Military Working Dogs have been used by the U.S. Military since WW I.

The dogs were originally enlisted by the Quartermaster Corps, and a
diversity of breeds where accepted

Once knowledge and experience was gained the dogs of choice became the German Shepherd Dog and the Doberman. Due to the nature of work to be accomplished the Labrador eventually replaced the Doberman.

The German Shepherd remained the most frequently used dog. These dogs are
commonly referred to as War Dogs; however, the correct term is Military Working Dogs. They have saved countless lives and casualties since the
beginning of their Military Service and they continue to do so today.

Dogs of Vietnam/Brief History:

There is a confirmed list of 3,747 dogs that were used in Vietnam
identified by Dr. Howard Hayes, Veterinarian (RET) of the National
Institute of Health as of March 1994, by "brand number" (a tattoo usually placed
in the left ear of the dog). However, it is estimated that approximately
4,900 dogs where used during the course of the war between 1964 and 1975.
Records of the dogs in Vietnam where not maintained by the military prior to
1968, thus the discrepancy.



How Many Dogs Returned Home?

Only 204 dogs exited Vietnam during the 10-year period. Some
remained in the Pacific, and some returned to the United States. None returned to
civilian life. So what happened to the dogs that remained? Most where
euthanized and the others where turned over to the ARVN (South Vietnamese
Army).

How Many Handlers Served in Vietnam and what Branch of Service?
All four branches of the military used dogs in Vietnam.
Approximately 10,000 handlers served. Vietnam was the largest concentrated effort of
the use of dogs and handlers in any Combat Era the United States has ever
undertaken. It is estimated that the dogs and handlers saved over 10,000 lives.



The following is a breakdown of handlers by Military Branch that
served in Vietnam. 65%Army 26%Air Force 7%Marine 2%Navy.

What Mission (duties) did the Dogs and Handlers Have in Vietnam?



Scout Dogs

A Scout Dog Team consisted of one German Shepherd and the handler.
Whenrequested the Scout Dog Team joined an infantry unit and served as
their"eyes and ears". The Scout Dog Team walked "point" (out front) for the
unit, looking for booby trap trip wires, ambushes, hidden caches of food or
weapons, snipers etc. When the dog alerted, the handler passed the
information to the patrol leader who then moved his troops forward.

Scout dogs and handlers where trained at Ft. Benning, Ga. Some Scout Dog
handlers were trained "In-Country" (OJT) or were originally trained as Tracker
handlers.)



Combat Tracker Teams (CTT)
The Tracker Team consisted of a Labrador Retriever (Sometimes
Shepherds) and handler, a cover man, a Visual Tracker and a Team Leader. Trackers
were called to duty when the unit wished to re-establish contact with the
enemy.
Tracker teams acted much like the old Indian Scouts (except for the
use of the dogs). They were called upon to "track" either visually or by
using a Labrador Retriever to follow ground (blood trails, body odor etc.) or
airborne scent in order to locate missing personnel, i.e., downed pilots,
wounded GI's, or the enemy. The Majority of Combat Trackers and
Tracker Dogs were trained in Malaysia at the British Jungle Warfare School (JWS) or
at Ft. Gordon, Ga. in the U.S.



Sentry Dog Teams:

Sentry Dog Teams were universal within every branch of the U.S.
Armed Forces in Vietnam to include the Air Force in Thailand; and were
normally an arm of Military Police Units (All Branches had police units-they just lcal
them different names). Sentry Dog Teams, "walked the wire" on the outskirts
of a location and their primary form of communication was via radio
after the dog alerted. Back up to the team was a tower or bunker guard, a
quick response team, or getting illumination (flares). Sentry Dog Teams (K9]
were comprised of one German Shepherd and one handler and generally worked at
night (about 99%). Their mission was to "Detect, Detain, and Destroy.


Sentry Dog Teams were the first line of defense on the perimeter of not only Bases in Vietnam but also ammo depots, supply areas, communications areas, > naval installations, camps, flight lines, and other sensitive areas.

The majority of Sentry Dog handlers and Sentry Dogs were trained at
Lackland Air Force Base, TX.


[All branches), however, some were trained in Showa(Tachikawa), Japan, and many handlers were trained "In-Country- (OJT)


Mine/Booby/Tunnel Dog Teams:

The Team was one German Shepherd and a handler in support of infantry
and combat engineer operations (Army and Marines). The mission was to
detect mines, booby-traps, trip wires, tunnel compiles and any other casualty
producing devices. They also assisted in searching villages or suspected
areas of enemy built up supplies, weapons and ammunition.

Luv2Hurt

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2007, 07:35:15 PM »
Cool idea Reminds me of my uncle Bob's police dog King.  He was a Chicago cop in the 60's and I remember it was around the time of the race riots in 1968.  King was a BIG very dark German Shep and I remember thinking as a little boy how huge he was.  My uncle had to keep the dog on leash and we could only see him from across the kitchen, cause I think he may have been concerned what the dog might do.  I just remember that was the biggest, scaryest dog I have ever seen.


knny187

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2007, 08:02:22 PM »
Cool idea Reminds me of my uncle Bob's police dog King.  He was a Chicago cop in the 60's and I remember it was around the time of the race riots in 1968.  King was a BIG very dark German Shep and I remember thinking as a little boy how huge he was.  My uncle had to keep the dog on leash and we could only see him from across the kitchen, cause I think he may have been concerned what the dog might do.  I just remember that was the biggest, scaryest dog I have ever seen.



Yeah, they can be big & scary.....but being a former Marine...i appreciate them as warriors, comrades in arms.

They probably saved thousands of lives in combat.  Even today in Iraq they are on duty.  So many times they become targets or are high priority targets for the enemy to eliminate.  The dogs themselves...live for their handler.  Devoted till the day they die.

Luv2Hurt

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2007, 08:59:25 PM »
Yeah, they can be big & scary.....but being a former Marine...i appreciate them as warriors, comrades in arms.

They probably saved thousands of lives in combat.  Even today in Iraq they are on duty.  So many times they become targets or are high priority targets for the enemy to eliminate.  The dogs themselves...live for their handler.  Devoted till the day they die.

Yep no doubt.  Being just about 4 YO when I saw King made him seem bigger and scaryer too.

Another G Shep story from me:  as a kid like 1st grade or so i remember walking to school I had to walk by this house that had a big Germ Shep and it would always bark its ass off at me.  So I was a little scared of it.  Well one day walking by to school somehow the dog got out the front door and charged me as i walked on the side walk, I was about 6.  I froze and was facing the dog, it jumped up and put its paws on my chest knocking me down.  Then it turned and went back in the house, the owner was yelling at it to come back when it got out.  Im just glad it did not bite me.

knny187

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2007, 09:06:29 AM »
Yep no doubt.  Being just about 4 YO when I saw King made him seem bigger and scaryer too.

Another G Shep story from me:  as a kid like 1st grade or so i remember walking to school I had to walk by this house that had a big Germ Shep and it would always bark its ass off at me.  So I was a little scared of it.  Well one day walking by to school somehow the dog got out the front door and charged me as i walked on the side walk, I was about 6.  I froze and was facing the dog, it jumped up and put its paws on my chest knocking me down.  Then it turned and went back in the house, the owner was yelling at it to come back when it got out.  Im just glad it did not bite me.

Telling you right now....you did the smartest thing by not running.  It may have been fear that stopped you (or froze you) in your tracks....but if you ran....you probably would have been attacked/mauled.

Shepherds are smart...real smart.  First of all....being a child he knew this.  Instilling fear & domination was what he was trying to achieve.  If you ran or fought back, he would of bitten you.

Luv2Hurt

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2007, 01:07:12 PM »
Telling you right now....you did the smartest thing by not running.  It may have been fear that stopped you (or froze you) in your tracks....but if you ran....you probably would have been attacked/mauled.

Shepherds are smart...real smart.  First of all....being a child he knew this.  Instilling fear & domination was what he was trying to achieve.  If you ran or fought back, he would of bitten you.

Yes I agree.  I just knew even at that early age that even if I tried I would not get away.  But yes I think fear is what stopped me for the most part.


I gotta add this in the pics I posted check out the smiles on that black lab and on the black and grey German Shep on the pic above  :)     

Nothing better than to see a dog smile.

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2007, 05:22:16 PM »

he served the military honorably ;D


*edited*
X Board. Integrity is what we do

Luv2Hurt

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 03:55:54 AM »
Some more

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 07:36:56 AM »
http://www.brotherhood-of-wolf.com/html/wardogs.html


  I remember something about we were going to leave the dogs behind instead of bringing them back(Gulf War??) and there was a big uproar over it.  I haven't located info on that yet, I think the dogs might have ended up being brought home.  Was very sad to think that they were willing to give their lives and we would just leave them their to die after it was over.   :(

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2007, 08:43:58 AM »
It's the American way ....there are still pow held in vietnam... ::)

Rambo said so so it must be true... :D
?

knny187

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2007, 08:46:45 AM »
In my inital post....almost 4,900 dogs served in Vietnam & only 204 returned.  I've read a lot of stories where the US government refused to pay the expense of sending these dogs back after service & recommended they needed to be put down.  The ones that returned was not an easy task.  If I'm not mistaken, the handlers had to pay out of pocket but because of the rush evacuation of leaving Vietnam, they had little or no options.

If it was me in that situation, I would have went AWOL & brought the dog out through different countries to bring them back.  One of the reasons if I am not mistaken why the government refused to bring them back was for quarantine/disease reasons.

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2007, 09:25:38 AM »
It was a more recent "war" than that that this happened, that I am thinking of.  One soldier in particular was trying to get his dog back that had saved his life on more than one occasion.  I think he was able to finally do it, partly due to the outcry from the people.

  Great thread knny, I think service dogs (military, search and rescue, police, for the handicapped, etc) are under appreciated, especially the at risk assignments.

  How many dogs got hurt (cuts and such) searching in 911 but were still willing keep looking?

   They go where no man will or can.     :)


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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2007, 06:32:04 PM »
RIP to these unselfish soilders.

knny187

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2007, 09:40:00 AM »
The K-9 Promise

“My eyes are your eyes to watch and protect you and yours.
My ears are your ears to hear and detect evil minds in the dark.
My nose is your nose to scent the invader of your domain.
And so you may live, my life is also yours.”

knny187

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 03:35:05 PM »
Here's a good story about one of these dogs........




" Nemo " Remembered

Nemo
No. A534, 377th Security Police K-9
Tan Son Nhut Air Base, Vietnam. 1966


Airman 2nd.Class Bob Thorneburg and his K-9 Nemo were assign duty near an old Vietnemese graveyard about a quarter mile from the air base's runways. No sooner had they started their patrol... Nemo alerted on something in the cemetery. But before Thorneburg could radio the CSC, that "something" opened fire.

Thorneburg released his dog and then charged firing into the enemy. Nemo was shot and wounded, the bullet entering under his right eye and exited through his mouth. Thorneburg killed one VC before he too was shot in the shoulder and knocked to the ground.

That might of been the sad end of the story. But Nemo refused to give in without a fight. Ignoring his serious head wound, the 85 pound dog threw himself at the Vietcong guerrillas who had opened fire. Nemo's ferocious attack brought Thorneburg the time he needed to call in backup forces.

A Quick Reaction Team arrived and swept the area but found no other Viet Cong. However, security forces, using additional sentry dog teams, located and killed four more Viet Cong. A second sweep with the dog teams resulted in discover of four more Viet Cong who were hiding underground. They, too, were killed.

Although severely wounded, Nemo crawled to his master and covered him with his body. Even after help arrived Nemo would not allow anyone to touch Thorneburg. Finally separated, both were taken back to the base for medical attention. Thorneburg was wounded a second time on the return to the base.

Lt. Raymond T. Hutson, the base vet, worked diligently to save Nemo's life. It required many skin grafts to restore the animal's appearance. Nemo was blinded in one eye, After the veterinarian felt Nemo was well enough, the dog was put back on perimeter duty. But it turned out his wounds needed further treatment.

On June 23, 1967, Air Force Headquarters directed that Nemo be returned to the United States with honors, as the first sentry dog to be officially retired from active service.

Thorneburg had to be evacuated to the hospital at Tachikawa Air Base in Japan to recuperate. The handler and the dog who saved his life said their final goodbyes. Airman Thorneburg fully recovered from his wounds and also returned home with honors.

Nemo flew halfway around the world accompanied by returning airman Melvin W. Bryant. The plane touched down in Japan, Hawaii and California. At each stop, Air Force vets would examined the brave dog for signs of discomfort, stress and fatigue...after all he was a War Hero!

Finally, the C-124 Globemaster touched down at Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, on July 22, 1967. Captain Robert M. Sullivan, was the officer in charge of the sentry dog training program at Lackland, and was the head of Nemo's welome home committee.

"I have to keep from getting involved with individual dogs in this program," Sullivan said, "but I can't help feeling a little emotional about this dog. He shows how valuable a dog is to his handler in staying alive."

After settling in Nemo and Captain Sullivan made a number of cross country tours and television appearances, as part of the Air Force's recruitment drive for more war dog candiates, until the US involvement in Vietnam started to wind down.

Nemo spent his retirement at the Department of Defense Dog Center, Lackland AFB, Texas. He was given a permanent kennel near the veterinary facility. A sign with his name, serial number, and details of his heroic exploit designated his freshly painted home.

Nemo died December 1972 at Lackland AFB, shortly before the Christmas holiday: after an failed attempt to preserve
his remains, the Vietnam War hero was layed to rest on March 15, 1973, at the DoD Dog Center, at the age of 11. Until then, his presence at Lackland reminded students just how important a dog is to his handler - and to the entire unit.

knny187

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2007, 03:50:46 PM »
.

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2007, 11:43:30 AM »
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660223617,00.html


Some 4,000 dogs served in the Vietnam War. Their work was directly responsible for saving an estimated 10,000 American lives. Yet their story is a largely forgotten part of the war.



Veterinarian Alan Cunningham sits beside the memorial to war dogs at the Utah Veterans Memorial Park. (Michael Brandy, Deseret Morning News)
Michael Brandy, Deseret Morning News


      American Fork veterinarian Alan Cunningham is one of those who is hoping to change all that. Cunningham recently erected a memorial to war dogs and their handlers at the Utah Veterans Memorial Park near Camp Williams.

      "A few years ago, I read about the war dogs and was both impressed and saddened by their story," he says. "Fewer than 200 of them ever returned home. Some 325 died in the line of duty, while another approximately 600 succumbed to tropical disease. But at the end of the war, the rest were considered military equipment and were either euthanized or left behind. They deserve to be remembered."

      The memorial is one of only a handful of such monuments around the country, most of which are on military bases. "This is the first one to be placed at a veterans cemetery, but I think it is a fitting place for it," says Cunningham.

      It is a simple monument, with a bronze dog sitting on a sandstone slab. Cunningham purposely did not want to show the dog in halter. "I wanted it to be a dog, not to be working." Because, he says, as important as the work was that the dogs did, when they were not working, they offered companionship and love that were also important to the soldiers.

      The monument was installed in April, without ceremony or dedication. "I just wanted it to be a quiet, humble thing," says Cunningham, "but I hope, with Memorial Day coming up, some people will want to come visit it."

      He pretty much footed the cost of the memorial himself. "I tried to get donations, but not many people were interested. I did get some from the Bank of American Fork. But I decided I could just work more and get the money myself."

      That speaks to why the memorial is important and needed, he says: Too many people don't realize what war dogs have done. "When I tell people about the war dogs, some are amazed, but some say, 'So what?' But you think that if those other 10,000 soldiers had died in Vietnam, maybe one of them would have been a person that has had an impact on your life, or my life, directly or indirectly."


A soldier in Vietnam relaxes in the demilitarized zone with his tracker dog. (Deseret Morning News archives)

      There is now a push to have a national memorial to war dogs placed in Washington, D.C. Increased interest in the story of the war dogs has grown out of a 1999 documentary, which first aired on the Discovery Channel but has aired worldwide since, says Mo Johnson, who works with the War Dog Memorial Fund, which is raising money for the effort. The film tells "the heart-wrenching story of the bond between the dogs and their handlers and the great lengths they look to save one another from the tragedies of war," she says. (The documentary is free with a donation of $10 or more to the fund. For more information, visit www.war-dogs.com.)

      "I believe the dogs should be recognized. Their stories are stories of love. I've met many of the handlers, and they all say that if it wasn't for their dogs, they wouldn't be here today," she said, in a telephone interview from their California headquarters.

      There is also a push to have the dogs honored on a commemorative postage stamp. Two requests have been denied, but a third one is going on now. "It's pretty sad that cartoon dogs can have a stamp, but we can't get one for real-life service dogs," said Johnson.

      Decades later, handlers who served in Vietnam still break down and cry as they tell of their dogs' heroics, says Cunningham. "The courageous canine soldiers worked for food, water and the love and companionship of their handlers. They never gave up on the battlefield."

      Dogs were used extensively in Vietnam, but that is not the only time they have been called into action. They've been used for centuries, says Cunningham, and certainly in every modern war, including the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

      Military Working Dogs, as they were called then, were used in World War I but became increasingly important in World War II. Shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the American Kennel Club and a new group calling itself Dogs for Defense appealed to dog owners across the country to donate quality animals to the Quartermaster Corps.


A weary GI and his pup take a break from the horrors of Vietnam. (Deseret Morning News archives)

      Starting in March 1942, the Quartermaster Corps handled the Army's so-called K-9 Corps and undertook the necessary training.
      By 1945, they had trained approximately 10,000 war dogs for the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard. Fifteen war dog platoons served overseas in World War II; seven in Europe and eight in the Pacific.

      In 1951, responsibility for the dogs was shifted to the Military Police Corps, as they continued to serve in conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and other military operations.

      The most commonly used dog breeds were German shepherds and Doberman pinschers. Later on, Labradors began to replace the Doberman.
      These dogs were able to detect the presence of the enemy at distances up to 1,000 yards — long before the soldiers could see them. When a scout dog detected the enemy, it would stiffen its body, raise its hackles, prick its ears and hold its tail rigid.

      "They could detect the wind blowing over a trip wire or smell underwater saboteurs," says Cunningham. There are also documented cases of dogs lying on their handlers to protect them and of dragging wounded soldiers to safety.
      "They were so effective in Vietnam that the Viet Cong placed a bounty of $20,000 on the heads of dogs and their handlers," he says.

      In recent years, the military has changed its policy on the dogs. They are no longer considered "equipment," and when their tour of duty is done, they are brought back. "They may be assigned to help with rehabilitation," says Cunningham. "They are very effective at that, as well."

      War dogs, he says, "have been forgotten service animals. They often get overlooked. But like Seeing Eye dogs and police dogs, they all have such an important place."


Image (Michael Brandy, Deseret Morning News)

      His memorial honors them all, he says. "I hope one day I can look back and say I left something good on the face of the Earth. I hope that here, at least, these dogs will be immortal."

headhuntersix

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2007, 12:21:18 PM »
They get to come home now. The best day in Afghanistan was when they allowed the bomb/demining dogs to be used as R@R dogs on their days off. One of the MP's brought a 2 year old black Lab around and I got to pet and hug him. After that they brough him around every week so my soldiers and I could play with him. Great dogs..great program.
L

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2007, 01:05:56 PM »
Cool idea Reminds me of my uncle Bob's police dog King.  He was a Chicago cop in the 60's and I remember it was around the time of the race riots in 1968.  King was a BIG very dark German Shep and I remember thinking as a little boy how huge he was.  My uncle had to keep the dog on leash and we could only see him from across the kitchen, cause I think he may have been concerned what the dog might do.  I just remember that was the biggest, scaryest dog I have ever seen.



In the 3rd pic, the dog on the left is a mirror image of my GS puppy...5 months, 56 lbs
gotta love life

benchmstr

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2007, 09:51:23 PM »
i am about to get my own k9,i cant wait i have been told its a female dutch Shepard named Gabe
they are sending me to Louisiana for 3 months to train with her,learn German,learn new searching techniques etc etc etc

i have been waiting for this for several years,and its the only reason i got into law enforcement

bench

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2007, 05:47:02 AM »

  Wow bench!   That sounds exciting!   Please keep us updated.   :)

benchmstr

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2007, 10:02:10 AM »
  Wow bench!   That sounds exciting!   Please keep us updated.   :)
i will,it will most likely be the only pic i ever post.i have not been told when i will go,but when i find out you guys will know.

bench

knny187

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2007, 08:50:21 AM »
i am about to get my own k9,i cant wait i have been told its a female dutch Shepard named Gabe
they are sending me to Louisiana for 3 months to train with her,learn German,learn new searching techniques etc etc etc

i have been waiting for this for several years,and its the only reason i got into law enforcement

bench

You're doing something I could only dream of

awesome

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Re: War Dogs.........Military Working Dogs
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2007, 10:52:22 AM »
This is funny    :D:

Making-faces charge dropped in Vt.
Charges dismissed against N.H. woman who made faces at police dog
The Associated Press
Updated: 11:23 a.m. ET June 7, 2007

CHELSEA, Vt. - A prosecutor dropped charges against a woman who was arrested for staring at and making faces at a police dog. After all, the prosecutor reasoned, the four-legged witness can’t testify.

Jayna Hutchinson was about to go on trial this week on charges of cruelty to a police animal and resisting arrest, but the case was dropped Tuesday.

“I think it was going to be difficult to prove her conduct changed the dog’s behavior,” Orange County State’s Attorney Will Porter said. “Most of the time (in harassment cases) people would come tell the court what it felt like. Dogs can’t do that.”

Hutchinson, 33, of Lebanon, N.H., was charged in July when police were called to a market to investigate a report of a brawl.

They were approached by Hutchinson, who said she had been assaulted the day before by one of the men involved and wanted to make a statement. Vermont State Police Sgt. Todd Protzman told her she seemed drunk and he would take a statement from her later.

After a heated exchange, she approached Protzman’s cruiser, where his dog, Max, was waiting. She put her face within inches of the window and stared at Max “in a taunting/harassing manner,” Protzman wrote in an affidavit.

Officers arrested Hutchinson, adding a resisting arrest charge because she pulled away from them.

“Prosecuting a woman for ‘staring’ at a police dog is absurd,” said her lawyer, public defender Kelly Green. “People are allowed to make faces at police dogs and officers to express their disapproval. It’s constitutional expression.”

Without the cruelty charge, jurors would be unlikely to convict her on the resisting arrest count, Porter said.


URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19093756/