So I attended a Mormon Church . . .

[Tre]

The church has never stated that blacks could not go to heaven.

That's a  misleading statement.

And the mormon church has been against slavery form the beginning...

Missionaries, anyone? 

[Dos Equis]

The Mormons have 3 levels of 'heaven', with the 'celestial kingdom' being the highest.  As a male, you could not ascend to that highest level unless you held the 'priesthood' and prior to 1978, if you were non-White, the 'priesthood' was not available to you. 

What you mention may be a difference between the two, but one thing that Mormons stress in their classes is that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in a literal sense and furthermore, that every single person who has ever lived or will live is also the literal brother or sister of both Jesus and Lucifer.  Whether other Christian religions believe/teach that or not, I don't think anyone else dwells on it like the Mormons do.

The primary difference between Christians and Mormons, however, is that Christians believe God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost to be one and the same, while Mormons believe that God (aka Heavenly Father), Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are 3 distinctly separate entities. 

 

Could blacks get to the first two levels of heaven before the Mormon race revelation? 

The more I read about their old views on race, the more disturbing it becomes.  I do want to stress I have had nothing but good experiences with Mormons, but this race stuff is pretty bad:

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "It was well understood by the early elders of the Church that the mark which was placed on Cain and which his posterity inherited was the black skin. The Book of Moses informs us that Cain and his descendants were black" (The Way to Perfection, p.107).

. . .

Brigham Young taught a much greater extreme. In a sermon given on March 8, 1863, Young stated, "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so" (Journal of Discourses, 10:110).

The Devil's Representative?
On two separate occasions, third LDS President John Taylor stated that it was God's plan to allow the seed of Cain to remain on the earth in order for the devil to be properly represented. On August 28, 1881, he declared, "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (Journal of Discourses 22:304).

The following year, Taylor reiterated his former comment when he said, "Why is it, in fact, that we should have a devil? Why did the Lord not kill him long ago? Because he could not do without him. He needed the devil and a great many of those who do his bidding to keep men straight, that we may learn to place our dependence on God, and trust in Him, and to observe his laws and keep his commandments. When he destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth" (Journal of Discourses 23:336).

It isn't difficult to understand why many would look upon the LDS Church as a racist organization. However, Latter-day Saints would reject such a notion since, in their minds, the leaders were merely reflecting what they erroneously thought was the will of God. Mormons laid the responsibility for this doctrine on God Himself, not the personal bigotry, either real or imagined, of any particular Latter-day Saint. For instance, Mark Peterson said, "When He [God] placed the mark on Cain, He engaged in segregation. When he told Enoch not to preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation" (Race Problems, p.15).

Mormons were taught that even though Blacks could never be exalted and become Gods, they could enter the celestial kingdom. In his Race Problems as they Affect the Church speech (p.17), Peterson said, "If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection." Slavery revisited?

. . .

http://www.mrm.org/topics/miscellaneous/black-skin-and-seed-cain

[genrommel74]

Tre is correct on certain aspects but in others he is completely wrong

[Tre]

... in others he is completely wrong

Name 'em!   

[Tre]

The more I read about their old views on race, the more disturbing it becomes.  I do want to stress I have had nothing but good experiences with Mormons, but this race stuff is pretty bad:

I agree.

Most of the Mormons I know are wonderful, loving, kind, and generous people and it has been an honor and a pleasure to know them. 

Mormons were taught that even though Blacks could never be exalted and become Gods, they could enter the celestial kingdom. In his Race Problems as they Affect the Church speech (p.17), Peterson said, "If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection."

Ok, Rommel is correct - I was wrong on that point. 

According to Mormonism, I knew that Blacks would be resurrected - Mormonism teaches that everyone will be resurrected, so long as they haven't suffered 'spiritual death' - but I was not aware that the celestial kingdom was open to them at all.

But to go as servants??  Are you kidding me??? 

Wow.  I've been studying this stuff for a long time, but just when I think I've been shocked for the last time, they come up with a new one.  lol 

[Butterbean]

  If you don't carry your 'temple recommend' card with you to the store, you will not be allowed to purchase the sacred garments.
 



http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_garments.html

I believe my temple recommend card would be permanently "lost." 

genrommel, is the need for the "garments" taken only out of the Book of Mormon or Mormon Tradition?  Or do they reference anything in the bible when stating a need for the "garments?"  If it's in the bible, to what scripture do they refer?

What you mention may be a difference between the two, but one thing that Mormons stress in their classes is that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in a literal sense and furthermore, that every single person who has ever lived or will live is also the literal brother or sister of both Jesus and Lucifer. 


 

genrommel or Tre, is this idea only from the Book of Mormon or Mormon Tradition?  If they claim it's in the bible do you know the scripture reference please?





Another question.  The bible and the Book of Mormon contradict each other in several areas.  How does the Mormon church explain this?  I assume they say the Book of Mormon has more authority than the bible?  Why use the bible at all since they teach completely different things?

[genrommel74]

SOrry it has taken so long to get back to you guys i have been out of town

1. First the garments are a representive of wearing the armor of god.
  Eph 6: 11-18(New testament)
  11 Put on the whole aarmour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
  12 For we awrestle not bagainst cflesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the drulers of the edarkness of this world, against spiritual fwickedness in high places.
  13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
  14 Stand therefore, having your loins agirt about with btruth, and having on the cbreastplate of drighteousness;
  15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of apeace;
  16 Above all, taking the shield of afaith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery bdarts of the wicked.
  17 And take the helmet of asalvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
  18 aPraying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all bperseverance and supplication for all saints;
 

2, I dont know if there is a scriptureal reference to jesus and lucifer being brothers. But everybody is a son or daughter of god, so that make jesus and lucifer brothers, as well as making jesus and lucifer my brother.

3. First the book of mormon and the bible dont contradict each other, the compliment each other. And we study the bible because it is still the word of god. And we belive that christ is the head of our church so we need to study christ and his teachings

[Al-Gebra]

thanx for asking me, stella 

the connection b/w Lucifer and Satan:

lucifer = satan, in later translations of the older hebrew texts. But, in the original

Lucifer = morning star in Isaiah.

Jesus = morning star in Revelation.

HOWEVER, JS was probably trying to say that jesus and satan are brothers, which is skating on thin ice for both Christians and Mormons.  B/c the trinity is a hard concept to explain, and so it is unclear as to how Jesus coexists w the father, and yet is the son.  No Christian can come up w a watertight explanation for that, and no Mormon can come up for a watertight explanation equating Jesus w Satan, a created being for sure, who is not part of the trinity.

[genrommel74]

AS far as mormons go we believe that god, jesus christ, and the holy spirit are all 3 separate beings, they are not the same person.

[SinCitysmallGUY]

AS far as mormons go we believe that god, jesus christ, and the holy spirit are all 3 separate beings, they are not the same person.

Correct, Catholics believe in the three being the same. They call it the trilogy. Second the Book of morman and Bible do not contradict. I hear alor of people say the book of morman is a fake of the bible and thatit is wrong to have a book of such. But the bible was written where? (The middle east) it is a record from the people of that time. Well the book of morman is written where? (south america and the western side of the world. So it is just the record from the people who were here. Funny thing to think that they made a record. I think being LDS you get as much hastle as Pit bulls and Pit bull owners...

[SamoanIrishman]

The primary difference between Christians and Mormons, however, is that Christians believe God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost to be one and the same, while Mormons believe that God (aka Heavenly Father), Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are 3 distinctly separate entities. 

Not so...Most believe that they are separate. JW's for example.

[genrommel74]

People are free to believe whatever they want to believe

[Dos Equis]

Who is "Elohim" and how do Mormons view Elohim in relation to the trinity? 

[Al-Gebra]

Who is "Elohim" and how do Mormons view Elohim in relation to the trinity? 

are you asking b/c of the Sun god connection?

[Tre]

Who is "Elohim" and how do Mormons view Elohim in relation to the trinity? 

As far as I know, Elohim is 'the guy', but they do not discuss that name in the weekly sacrament meetings ('church', to the non-Mormon), nor is there any mention of him in the Gospel Principles (basic 'Sunday School' for new members or for those who want a refresher) classes. 

[Tre]

People are free to believe whatever they want to believe

I absolutely believe everyone has the right to be wrong.   

[Tre]

genrommel or Tre, is this idea only from the Book of Mormon or Mormon Tradition?  If they claim it's in the bible do you know the scripture reference please?

Growing up in the South, I attended a regular ol' Methodist church.  My family wasn't religiously strict, but I was in church every Sunday and not once was I ever taught that Satan is my 'brother' and if I had heard that, I probably would not have wanted to return. 

Speaking of, my kid came home from her Primary (Sunday School for kids) class a couple of weeks ago talking about some man 'cutting the people's arms off'.  I dismissed her statement and told her that we don't talk like that.  She replied that it's 'in the scriptures' and I told her that it wasn't true and again, that we don't talk about stuff like that, because it's not a very nice thing to say. 

My daughter is 4 and I do not approve of violent images or discussions in our home.  Sure, she knows what it means to 'kill' a spider, but that's as far as it needs to go.  I'm going to speak with her Sunday school teacher tomorrow and will probably need to have a sit-down with their bishop as well, because I don't want her being taught that bullshit. 

Another question.  The bible and the Book of Mormon contradict each other in several areas.  How does the Mormon church explain this?  I assume they say the Book of Mormon has more authority than the bible?  Why use the bible at all since they teach completely different things?

The Bible is used because it's better for business to use it than to ignore it. 

For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, 'the Church' did not even desire for its members to be called 'Christians', because they believed the average Christians to be spiritually inferior and felt that assuming that name would be to taint their own profile.

Over time, though, they've completely reversed their position on that, primarily because claiming to be 'Christian' is very good for business.

Mormons will openly admit, however, that the Book of Mormon is 'less flawed' than the Bible. 

And during a testimony meeting, you will hear 'I know the Book of Mormon is true' half-a-dozen times, but I don't think I've ever heard one of them say 'I know the Bible is true'.  Hmmm...



   

[Tre]

Not so...Most believe that they are separate. JW's for example.

I'm talking about real Christians - Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc.

They're all about the Holy Trinity, and it's a fundamental belief.

I don't know what to consider JWs, but they haven't done nearly as good a job in escaping their cult roots as the Mormons have. 

[Butterbean]

 

2, I dont know if there is a scriptureal reference to jesus and lucifer being brothers. But everybody is a son or daughter of god, so that make jesus and lucifer brothers, as well as making jesus and lucifer my brother.

I'm pretty certain that there is no scripture reference to Jesus and lucifer being brothers.

The bible states that Jesus is God and lucifer is an angel (a created being).  That's not the same and not brothers.

3. First the book of mormon and the bible dont contradict each other, the compliment each other. And we study the bible because it is still the word of god. And we belive that christ is the head of our church so we need to study christ and his teachings

But the bible states that Jesus is God. ...I don't think Mormons believe that?

Also, the bible states that faith Jesus (and all that entails) is the way to spending eternity w/God.  That by believing (and all that entails)...you go to heaven when you die....and if you reject Him you go to hell.

Don't Mormon's think that all people go to heaven but there are diff. levels of heaven depending on if you were a good Mormon or not?



Here are some other differences (from carm.org):

GOD

Christian
God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15)

Mormon
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

Christian
God is a spirit without flesh and bones (John 4:24; Luke 24:39)

Mormon
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10)
     "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p.38

 

TRINITY

Christian
The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three, eternal, simultaneous person: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mormon
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage p.35



JESUS

Christian
Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23)

Mormon
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115)
     "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine ," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547

Christian
Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17)

Mormon
Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation. (Gospel Through the Ages, p.15



SALVATION

Christian
Salvation is the forgiveness of sin and deliverance of the sinner from damnation. It is a free gift received by God's grace (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 6:23) and cannot be earned (Rom. 11:6).

Mormon
 Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . .
     "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.

Christian
Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:21)

Mormon
"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)

[Butterbean]

thanx for asking me, stella 

lol

sorry Al-Gebra





thanks everyone for all the information