Democracy without morality does not work...

[Hedgehog]

This proves nothing.  I would measure the religious convictions of nation by how much they help widows, orphans and people in need in general, how many churches exist and how many people attend those churches, how much money is given voluntarily to help people around the world, how many people(missionaries) give up their comfortable lives in that nation to go to other nations to offer free medical care, food, clothing and bring a message of hope.  In all of these, the US excels.  And this is not done by the US government, but by church going American people who do it out of love for Jesus Christ and out of love for other people.

Venezuela has plenty of social capital, but very little religion.

Sweden, Denmark and Finland are countries which are much more secular than eg USA or Iran.

Still these countries ranks high on the Democracy Index.

India is another example: A country with high religiousity, but so-so democracy.


1. Sweden-9.88, 2. Iceland-9.71, 3. Netherlands-9.66, 4. Norway-9.55, 5. Denmark-9.52, 6. Finland-9.25, 7. Luxembourg-9.10, 8. Australia-9.09, 9. Canada-9.07, 10. Switzerland-9.02, 11. Ireland-9.01 & New Zealand-9.01, 13. Germany-8.82, 14. Austria-8.69, 15. Malta-8.39, 16. Spain-8.34, 17. United States-8.22, 18.Czech Republic-8.17, 19. Portugal-8.16, 20. Belgium-8.15 & Japan-8.15, 22. Greece-8.13 23. UK-8.08, 24. France-8.07, 25. Mauritius-8.04 & Costa Rica-8.04, 27. Slovenia-7.96 & Uruguay-7.96.

Flawed democracies: 29. South Africa-7.91, 30. Chile-7.89, 31. South Korea-7.88, 32. Republic of China (Taiwan)-7.82, 33. Estonia-7.74, 34. Italy-7.73, 35. India-7.68, 36. Botswana-7.60 & Cyprus-7.60, 38. Hungary-7.53, 39. Cape Verde-7.43 & Lithuania-7.43, 41. Slovakia-7.40, 42. Brazil-7.38, 43. Latvia-7.37, 44. Panama-7.35, 45. Jamaica-7.34, 46. Poland-7.30, 47. Israel-7.28, 48. Trinidad and Tobago-7.18, 49. Bulgaria-7.10, 50. Romania-7.06, 51. Croatia-7.04, 52. Ukraine-6.94, 53. Mexico-6.67, 54. Argentina-6.63, 55. Serbia-6.62, 56. Mongolia, 57. Sri Lanka, 58. Montenegro, 59. Namibia & Papua New Guinea, 61. Suriname, 62. Moldova, 63. Lesotho & Philippines, 65. Indonesia & Timor Leste, 67. Colombia, 68. Macedonia, 69. Honduras, 70. El Salvador, 71. Paraguay & Benin, 73. Guyana, 74. Dom Rep, 75. Bangladesh & Peru, 77. Guatemala, 78. Hong Kong, 79. Palestine, 80. Mali, 81. Malaysia & Bolivia 81.

Hybrid regimes: 83. Albania, 84. Singapore, 85. Madagascar & Lebanon, 87. Bosnia and Herzegovina, 88. Turkey, 89. Nicaragua, 90. Thailand, 91. Fiji, 92. Ecuador, 93. Venezuela, 94. Senegal, 95. Ghana, 96. Mozambique, 97. Zambia, 98. Liberia, 99. Tanzania, 100. Uganda, 101.Kenya, 102. Russia, 103. Malawi, 104. Georgia, 105. Cambodia, 106. Ethiopia, 107. Burundi, 108. Gambia, 109. Haiti, 110. Armenia, 111. Kyrgyzstan, 112. Iraq.

Authoritarian regimes: 113. Pakistan & Jordan, 115. Comoros & Morocco & Egypt, 118. Rwanda, 119. Burkina Faso, 120. Kazakhstan, 121. Sierra Leone, 122. guy, 123. Bahrain, 124. Cuba & Nigeria, 126. Nepal, 127. Côte d’Ivoire, 128. Belarus, 129. Azerbaijan, 130. Cameroon, 131. Congo Brazzaville, 132. Algeria, 133. Mauritania, 134. Kuwait, 135. Afghanistan & Tunisia, 137. Yemen, 138. People's Republic of China, 139. Swaziland & Iran, 141. Sudan, 142. Qatar, 143. Oman, 144. Democratic Republic of Congo, 145. Vietnam, 146. Gabon, 147. Bhutan & Zimbabwe, 149. Tajikistan, 150. UAE, 151. Angola, 152. Djibouti, 153. Syria, 154. Eritrea, 155. Laos, 156. Equatorial Guinea, 157. Guinea, 158. Guinea-Bissau, 159. Saudi Arabia, 160. Uzbekistan, 161.Libya, 162. Turkmenistan, 163. Myanmar, 164. Togo, 165. Chad, 166. Central African Republic, 167. North Korea.

The only true religion that ever came to Venezuela is that which was brought by American, Southern Baptist missionaries.

What gives you the right to dismiss the religiousity of the citizens in Venezuela?

-Hedge

[The Enigma]

No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce. 

Like PEDOFILE catholic priests? 

[loco]

What gives you the right to dismiss the religiousity of the citizens in Venezuela?

-Hedge

Hedge, tell me who you think would be qualified to dismiss the religiosity of the citizens in Venezuela.

What gives you the right to say which country is religious and which is secular?

[loco]

Benjamin Franklin

Constitutional Convention, 1787:
I believe farther that this [new government under the Constitution] is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

[loco]

I think that everybody here will a agree with me that a theocracy is a very bad thing for any country.  The church must NOT rule.  That is not the role of the church.  Iran is a theocracy and that is bad.  The Roman Catholic Church was a theocracy, and still is to a certain extent, and that is why the founding fathers of the US came to America, to flee religious persecution and seek religious freedom.  They fled a theocracy and they certainly meant to keep the US from ever becoming a theocracy.

But the founding fathers were very religious and moral people and they certainly did not mean to make the US a secular country either.  They knew that the US constitution is for a moral and religious people only.  Religion and the church play a very important role in the US and removing them completely from your society will only destroy you from within.

All extremes are bad.  Balance and moderation are key.  A theocracy in the US is bad, just as bad as completely removing Christianity from your society.

John Adams
Address to the Military, 11 October 1798:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

[Hedgehog]

Hedge, tell me who you think would be qualified to dismiss the religiosity of the citizens in Venezuela.

What gives you the right to say which country is religious and which is secular?

You dismissed the religiousity of the citizens of Venezuela. I didn't.

These people go to church, but it was YOU that claimed they weren't religious. Not I.

Venezuela religious?  No, not religious. 

If someone claims they aren't member of a church, or aren't Christians, or aren't religious, I tend to believe that.

I even posted links to surveys showing that there is higher religiousity in Nigeria than in USA.

And a Democracy index, which showed higher Democracy in Sweden than in USA eg.

Still you refuse to admit that there is little correlation between religion and democracy.

Eg, North Korea, the most totalitarian country in the world, has no religion at all.

But at the same time, a lot of countries with high religiousity scores very low on the democracy index too.

So there seems to be very low correlation.

You're yet to show one stat that is backing up your claim, and you're not even answering the questions:

What gives you the right to dismiss the religiousity of the citizens in Venezuela?

-Hedge

[loco]

Respect for others leads people to develop morals. If you need fairy tales from the Middle East to teach you morals, then you are a lousy person.

Camel  Jockey,
Your attitude is not a very good example of your statement.

[loco]

You dismissed the religiousity of the citizens of Venezuela. I didn't.

These people go to church, but it was YOU that claimed they weren't religious. Not I.

If someone claims they aren't member of a church, or aren't Christians, or aren't religious, I tend to believe that.

I even posted links to surveys showing that there is higher religiousity in Nigeria than in USA.

And a Democracy index, which showed higher Democracy in Sweden than in USA eg.

Still you refuse to admit that there is little correlation between religion and democracy.

Eg, North Korea, the most totalitarian country in the world, has no religion at all.

But at the same time, a lot of countries with high religiousity scores very low on the democracy index too.

So there seems to be very low correlation.

You're yet to show one stat that is backing up your claim, and you're not even answering the questions:

What gives you the right to dismiss the religiousity of the citizens in Venezuela?

-Hedge

You totally misunderstood my question.  My question to you is:

If there is someone out there who is qualified to make a statement about the religiosity of Venezuela, who would it be?  A tourist?  An exchange student?  A journalist? A born citizen of Venezuela who lives there, knows and has studied Venezuelan history, government, society and religion?  Who?  What do you know about me?  What makes you think I don't know about the religiosity of Venezuela?

I respect you and I see from your posts that you have a lot of knowledge about a number of different subjects, but I have also noticed from your posts that you and I disagree on what a religious person is.  Claiming to be religious, or claiming to believe in God does not make you religious.

Bottom line is, democracy in Venezuela has not worked because people are too corrupt and need a dictator to keep them on a leash.  Dictators are corrupt too, so eventually they get overthrown and replaced by a democracy, which doesn't last long because of corruption and so on and so forth.  It's a never ending cycle.  If they were a moral and "truly" religious people, this would not happen.

[Camel Jockey]

Camel  Jockey,
Your attitude is not a very good example of your statement.

It's a logical one going from A to B. While your statements seem to rest on a fallacy.

I agree that democracy without morality does not work; you're absolutely right. But thinking morality comes out of faith is a fallacy.

[Hedgehog]

You totally misunderstood my question.  My question to you is:

If there is someone out there who is qualified to make a statement about the religiosity of Venezuela, who would it be?  A tourist?  An exchange student?  A journalist? A born citizen of Venezuela who lives there, knows and has studied Venezuelan history, government, society and religion?  Who?  What do you know about me?  What makes you think I don't know about the religiosity of Venezuela?

I respect you and I see from your posts that you have a lot of knowledge about a number of different subjects, but I have also noticed from your posts that you and I disagree on what a religious person is.  Claiming to be religious, or claiming to believe in God does not make you religious.

Bottom line is, democracy in Venezuela has not worked because people are too corrupt and need a dictator to keep them on a leash.  Dictators are corrupt too, so eventually they get overthrown and replaced by a democracy, which doesn't last long because of corruption and so on and so forth.  It's a never ending cycle.  If they were a moral and "truly" religious people, this would not happen.

You and I disagree on religion, that is true. We've had a very interesting discussion about what it takes to make one a Christian on the Religion board.

While I respect your knowledge and scholarship, I obviously disagree, just as I did then.

Because this argument seems to land on how religiousity is judged.

And I won't get into that discussion.

I will simply state the fact that Sweden, with less religious people than USA, is higher on the Democracy index.

This indicates that there is no correlation between religiousity and democracy.



-Hedge

[loco]

I agree that democracy without morality does not work; you're absolutely right.

Well, at least we agree on something.   

[Hedgehog]

Well, at least we agree on something.   

I also agree with this sentiment.

It comes from the social capital IMO.

You really should read Robert Putnam, loco.

Give the guy a try.

I'm sure you will find it interesting, and in line with your religious beliefs.

-Hedge

[loco]

I also agree with this sentiment.

It comes from the social capital IMO.

You really should read Robert Putnam, loco.

Give the guy a try.

I'm sure you will find it interesting, and in line with your religious beliefs.

-Hedge

I will read Robert Putnam.  Thanks Hedge!

[Camel Jockey]

I will read Robert Putnam.  Thanks Hedge!

You're a good man, loco. Your heart is in the right place and I do see your concern. We as a society are pretty phony and could use a revision of our morals.

[loco]

You're a good man, loco. Your heart is in the right place and I do see your concern. We as a society are pretty phony and could use a revision of our morals.

Thanks Camel Jockey!  You are a good man too!

[OzmO]

You could almost change this thread to society with out morality cannot work.

[loco]

You could almost change this thread to society with out morality cannot work.

Almost.   

[Hedgehog]

You're a good man, loco. Your heart is in the right place and I do see your concern. We as a society are pretty phony and could use a revision of our morals.

Agree with everything.

-Hedge

[Decker]

...They knew that the US constitution is for a moral and religious people only.  Religion and the church play a very important role in the US and removing them completely from your society will only destroy you from within.

....

I disagree.  I don't think religion can be removed from our existence even if we wanted it removed.  Religion deals with intractable mysteries of life by developing myths/explanations for those mysteries. 

From that perspective, there will always be religion b/c life always has a mystery at its core. 

It is fundamentalist extremism and religiosity that kills the authentic religious experience/impulse.

[militarymuscle69]

You're a good man, loco. Your heart is in the right place and I do see your concern. We as a society are pretty phony and could use a revision of our morals.

AMEN!!