Democracy without morality does not work...

[loco]

...and there is no morality without religion.  Therefore, democracy without religion does not work.

Freedom brings responsibility.  If you do not want a king, dictator or big government to rule over your life, then you must learn to rule over your own life with morality and integrity.

Why does democracy not work in countries like Venezuela and Cuba?  Corruption.

Why has democracy worked in the US up until recently?  Because the founding fathers were moral and religious people who came up with a heck of a constitution and with a heck of a form government that hasn't significantly changed in over 200 years.

[Colossus_500]

...and there is no morality without religion.  Therefore, democracy without religion does not work.

Freedom brings responsibility.  If you do not want a king, dictator or big government to rule over your life, then you must learn to rule over your own life with morality and integrity.

Why does democracy not work in countries like Venezuela and Cuba?  Corruption.

Why has democracy worked in the US up until recently?  Because the founding fathers were moral and religious people who came up with a heck of a constitution and with a heck of a form government that hasn't significantly changed in over 200 years.

Well said, Loco!!!!  And history backs up these statements.

[AE]

Total BS. 

[Colossus_500]

Total BS. 

Case closed.   

[OzmO]

Which morality are we talking about?

The one where moses kills 3000 people and says God told him to do it?

Or the one where the Bible shows people how to buy and sell children slaves?

Or maybe where Lot offers up his virgin daughters to a sex crazed mob?


I do Agree with you however,......  We as a species, at the moment, are not mature enough to know what's right or wrong without someone telling us.

[Hedgehog]

...and there is no morality without religion.  Therefore, democracy without religion does not work.

Freedom brings responsibility.  If you do not want a king, dictator or big government to rule over your life, then you must learn to rule over your own life with morality and integrity.

Why does democracy not work in countries like Venezuela and Cuba?  Corruption.

Why has democracy worked in the US up until recently?  Because the founding fathers were moral and religious people who came up with a heck of a constitution and with a heck of a form government that hasn't significantly changed in over 200 years.

Sorry, but you're wrong. You get an "A" for effort, though.

But an "F" for general performance.



The reason why democracy isn't working in some places have actually been studied by Robert Putnam.

It has to do with social capital.

Where there's lots of social capital, there is a good foundation for democracy.

Where there's a lack of social capital, there is not.

Social capital is founded with things such as choirs, bowling clubs and other kinds of local organisations where citizens bonds and bridges.

I suggest you to read Putnam's first book:

Making Democracy Work: Civic Traditions in Modern Italy

Then, read his most famous work:

Bowling Alone

FWIW, the religious reference you're making is ridiculous: Look at countries like Iran, Venezuela, et al. These are countries that are very religious. Southern Italy is very religious, but is more corrupt than the Northern Italy, Northern Italy which is more secular.

Like I stated: An "A" for effort. But "F" for general performance.

-Hedge

[Dos Equis]

I think loco is spot on. 

[loco]

George Washington

Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

[OzmO]

George Washington

Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

Back then morality couldn't operate alone and we still are not capable of governing without a moral compass that is based on religious values.  This is as a whole.  On an individual level there are many people who don't need religion to tell them wrong from right.

[Decker]

It depends on what is meant by “religion”.  If by religion, you mean: 

1. the sublimation of fears and impulses into a divine ideal—I would disagree b/c that is a religion of fear, or if you mean

2.  the religiosity of Church structure where the religion of fear is used by an elite/ruling class to further the ends of that class—I would disagree b/c that is a form of social control, or if you mean

3.  the experience of a/the mystery of existence from reason/art’s limited grasp of it, then I think you may have something.

I believe that the founders who were Deists had a superior understanding of religion that was more in line with #3 above than with #1 or #2 as it exists today in our popular culture. 

John Locke, the Magna Carta, experience from the 13 colonies and former British rule informed the authors of the Constitution.  Not religion from #1 or #2 above.

We the people in order to form a more perfect union
Establish justice and ensure domestic tranquility
Provide for the common defense
Promote the general welfare and
Secure the blessings of liberty
For ourselves and our posterity
Do ordain and establish this Constitution.

Granted that's off the top of my head, but I don't see implementing God's will there.

[loco]

Samuel Adams

Letter to John Adams, 4 October 1790:
Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.

[Decker]

"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." -- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.

[OzmO]

Also, in it's pure form...Democracy doesn't work either.  I once heard somewhere that every pure democracy ended in a dictatorship.

republics like the USA based on democracies work.

[loco]

Benjamin Franklin

Letter to Messrs, the Abbes Chalut, and Arnaud, 17 April 1787:
Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

[OzmO]

Benjamin Franklin

Letter to Messrs, the Abbes Chalut, and Arnaud, 17 April 1787:
Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

vir·tu·ous      /ˈvɜrtʃuəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vur-choo-uhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1.   conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life.
2.   chaste: a virtuous young person.


I agree 

[Decker]

Also, in it's pure form...Democracy doesn't work either.  I once heard somewhere that every pure democracy ended in a dictatorship.

republics like the USA based on democracies work.

The essence of a true democracy is the lynch mob.

[Hedgehog]

George Washington

Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

Instead of citing George Washington, why don't you address my post instead.

Let me put it as a question, perhaps that will clear things up a bit:

Why are religious countries like Iran, Romania, and Venezuela (yes, very religious country) less democratic than secular countries like Sweden, England, Austria or Finland?

-Hedge

[loco]

"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." -- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.

Thomas Jefferson

Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God ? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.

Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.

Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson
It is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

[Decker]

Thomas Jefferson

Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God ? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.

Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.

Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson
It is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

These are all wonderful quotes you show but I don't know what point you are trying to make.  Your quotes show admiration and appreciation for religion.

"God" to the founders had a special meaning.  The rights created in the social contract aka the US Constitution are god given b/c that denies any authority of the British Crown.  That's a very good way of incorporating Locke's idea into the document.

[Hedgehog]

Hopefully, this link will explain it all to loco:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518375.stm



-Hedge

[ieffinhatecardio]

Whose morality will be the rule for all others to follow?

Christianity is the most popular religion in the U.S.A yet I and many others don't agree with much of their dogma and don't want to be ruled by it.

I agree with the overall point that morality must play a role but not with the point that morality can not survive or thrive without religion.

[loco]

Sorry, but you're wrong. You get an "A" for effort, though.

But an "F" for general performance.

Thanks, Hedge!   

Social capital is founded with things such as choirs, bowling clubs and other kinds of local organisations where citizens bonds and bridges.

I suggest you to read Putnam's first book:

Making Democracy Work: Civic Traditions in Modern Italy

Then, read his most famous work:

Bowling Alone

FWIW, the religious reference you're making is ridiculous: Look at countries like Iran, Venezuela, et al. These are countries that are very religious.

Social capital?  Nice theory, but it does not apply to Venezuela. 

Venezuela has plenty of social capital.

Have you ever lived in Venezuela?  Venezuela religious?  No, not religious. 

Define religious for me, Hedge.  Saying that you believe in God or saying that you are a Christian does not make you religious, moral or a person of integrity.

99% of the Venezuela population profess to be Roman Catholic, "profess".  Most of those 99% do not go to church, do not practice religion in any form, do not believe in helping the needy, do not believe in the greater good of others.  Sure, there are good, moral religious people of integrity in every country, but in Venezuela there is corruption from the richest of richest to the poorest of the poorest.  There is a belief that it is not wrong to sin or break the law as long as you don't get caught.  Yes, there is a minority of good religious people in Venezuela, but generally in Venezuela you are taught from childhood to get to the top even if it takes stepping on other people.  You are taught that it is okay to be corrupt as long as you don't get caught.

Don't believe me?  Go live there for a few years, not as a tourist, but as a local.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

...and there is no morality without religion.  Therefore, democracy without religion does not work.

If you're looking for morality, don't look to religious people.
The "morality" of the religious founding fathers and generations of their ancestors included genocide of the indigenous people of this land, slavery, lack of rights for women, and other various forms of exploitation.  All so that the rich white "religious" men in power could reap the rewards.  Very similar to today's ruling class and our foreign policy.  

[Camel Jockey]

Thomas Jefferson

Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God ? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.

Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.

Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson
It is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

Copying and pasting stuff doesn't back up your arguement, as there are plenty of quotes by the founding fathers preaching seperation of church and state.

Infact, thinking morality comes from faith is a fallacy. Morality comes out of respect for your fellow man. I think people knew stealing was wrong way before the 10 commandments and I certainly don't think people make mental references to religion whenever they're faced with a moral decision. A person who gets his morals out of respect for his fellow man is morally superior to someone who gets his morals out of fear of some boogeyman from the sky.

Whether you want to admit it or not, America is a secular country. While it's not perfect, it's a hell of a lot better than other religious nations. For example, look at the Scandanavian countries. They're amongst the most educated and secular in the world. They also enjoy very high standards of living. They tend to not put too much weight on faith.

You(loco) are just trying to impose faith on others. THAT is where democracy ends. You are the problem, not us secularists.

[Hedgehog]

Thanks, Hedge!   

Social capital?  Nice theory, but it does not apply to Venezuela. 

Venezuela has plenty of social capital.

Have you ever lived in Venezuela?  Venezuela religious?  No, not religious. 

Define religious for me, Hedge.  Saying that you believe in God or saying that you are a Christian does not make you religious, moral or a person of integrity.

99% of the Venezuela population profess to be Roman Catholic, "profess".  Most of those 99% do not go to church, do not practice religion in any form, do not believe in helping the needy, do not believe in the greater good of others.  Sure, there are good, moral religious people of integrity in every country, but in Venezuela there is corruption from the richest of richest to the poorest of the poorest.  There is a belief that it is not wrong to sin or break the law as long as you don't get caught.  Yes, there is a minority of good religious people in Venezuela, but generally in Venezuela you are thought from childhood to get to the top even if it takes stepping on other people.  You are thought that it is okay to be corrupt as long as you don't get caught.

Don't believe me?  Go live there for a few years, not as a tourist, but as a local.

The Venezuelan's are, by your own admission, Catholics.

But there is corruption there, still?

I think you just proved your own theory wrong, no offence.

You may argue that "Venezuelan's aren't really religious, it's a hoax down there" or something like that.

But the fact remains: lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela.

Not much religion in Sweden.

Which country is more democratic?

-Hedge