Author Topic: how far can a natural really go?  (Read 10805 times)

natural al

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how far can a natural really go?
« on: May 26, 2007, 12:20:24 PM »
Ok, we've seen the topic "is this guy natural" on here and the general consensus is that he's pobably not natty-I could be wrong but that's what I got out of it.  We've also seen guys that TA has posted pics of who are mega ripped but really carry no "incredible" size that we're used to seeing on guys in the major magazines.  General opinions on here is that Lacour, Willet and even O'Hearn are not natural, I just read an old interview with Lee Priest done by Trevor Smith where they pretty much say he's doing clen and GH to look like he does. 

So really how far can a natty take it?  I'm not in a position to commit my entire life and being to BB, my results are OK but if someone was 100% commited what's the best they could get?  Layne Norton?  How bout Whateva?  The Texas Shredder?  Who's the biggest natty you've ever seen?  really? 
nasser=piece of shit

SteelePegasus

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2007, 12:54:49 PM »
me..I can't vouch for anyone else being natty
Here comes the money shot

chris2489

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2007, 01:10:57 PM »


G o a t b o y

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2007, 01:14:36 PM »
.
Ron: "I am lazy."

Matt C

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2007, 01:16:14 PM »
Bodybuilding Pro.com

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2007, 01:16:40 PM »



Looks like he's getting fucked in the shitter

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2007, 01:19:53 PM »
For a drug-free bodybuilder trying to develop maximum muscle mass, the knowledge of how much muscle can be developed without the use of anabolic drugs would be a very valuable asset. Unfortunately, because of the achievements of drug-using professional, amateur and recreational bodybuilders, many natural lifters either have no idea of their actual potential, they over-estimate what they can realistically achieve or they adopt a defeatist attitude and set their goals too low. Perspective is needed. The ability to set ambitious, yet realistic, goals is needed. And while there is no doubt that through natural bodybuilding a trainee can develop truly impressive, strong muscles, the chances of a drug-free bodybuilder attaining lean 22" arms are about the same as him sprouting wings.

Maximum muscular bodyweight and size potential are positively correlated with a person's height and bone-structure. Reflecting that, there are several formulae in popular use that predict a person's maximum muscular weight based on these variables (with bone-structure size typically estimated by measuring the circumference of the wrist).

Bodybuilding legend Steve Reeves presented simple formulas for calculating what he considered to be ideal muscular weight. He suggested starting with a base of 160 pounds and adding 5 pounds for every inch of height above 5'5". For people above 6'0", he suggested starting with 200 pounds and adding 10 pounds per inch. Using these formulae, a person 5'9" would have an ideal muscular weight of 180 pounds. A person 6'1" would weigh 210 pounds. The problem with these predictions is that they do not consider bone structure size.

In his book, Beyond Brawn, Stuart McRobert also proposed a method of estimating maximum muscular bodyweight. The suggestion is to start with 5'0" as a base height and 100 pounds as a base weight. Then add 10 pounds for every inch of height above 5'0" for a medium bone structure, 8 pounds for a small structure, and 12 pounds for a large structure. Above 5'9" add only half those amounts. A person of 5'9" with a medium structure would weigh 190 pounds. A person of 6'1" with a large structure would weigh 232 pounds. This is a worthwhile refinement of the simple linear approach, but becomes inaccurate when dealing with very large and/or very small structured people.

In the scientific community, Dr. E. M. Kouri, et. al. presented a comparison between the lean body masses of drug-free vs. drug-using lifters based upon their fat-free mass indexes (FFMI) [1]. This formula can be solved for maximum lean body mass at a given height if a maximum FFMI is assumed for drug-free lifters. The problem with doing this, however, is that, again, bone structure is not considered.

What's needed is an accurate and precise formula, based on personal bone structure and height, that gives the maximum lean body mass a trainee can achieve without the use of anabolic drugs.
Predicting Maximum Muscular Bodyweight

The average male serum testosterone level is between 2.7 and 10.7 ng/ml. This imposes a limit on the amount of lean body mass that can be developed and maintained without the use of exogenous anabolic drugs (women's testosterone levels are 20 to 30 times less than this, resulting in less muscle mass potential). Muscular potential is also influenced by muscle belly length, fast-twitch to slow-twitch fiber ratio, etc. So there will be variations in potential between people even of identical bone structures. Consequently, no equation predicting maximum muscular bodyweight will be 100% accurate for everybody.

What such an equation can do, however, is establish an upper limit of potential based on the achievements of drug-free bodybuilding champions. These men possess naturally high testosterone levels, full muscle bellies, and the host of structural characteristics that permit the development of world-class physiques - they reflect the upper limit of male drug-free muscular potential. Therefore, a muscular bodyweight prediction equation based on such a group of men provides an estimate as to the maximum muscular size a person of a given structure is likely to achieve without the use of anabolic drugs and while maintaining a "balanced" physique.

If you have long muscle bellies, good health and hormone levels, a growth supporting diet and lifestyle, and train according to your needs then you should, in time, be able to reach such a predicted muscular weight. If one of these factors doesn't apply to you then your potential will be less. It has been my experience, though, based on over six years of data collection and analysis, that most healthy people can come quite close to what such a formula can predict - if they train correctly for long enough.

One must also consider the case where a person's bone structure tapers at the extremities. For instance, the wrist and ankle circumferences could be "small" but the upper legs and torso structures not correspondingly "small". This trait is somewhat common amongst people of African descent. Some people with strong endomorphic tendencies also have this type of structure. The opposite end of the spectrum is a very slightly built person who has large wrists and ankles. This type of structure also exists. In these cases, it is more difficult to accurately predict muscular potential. I have chosen to present a simplified lean body mass prediction equation, but with the caveat that an adjustment be made for very thinly and thickly built men.

Finally, potential lean body mass increases with body fat percentage. Research has found that very heavy Sumo wrestlers actually carry more lean body mass than bodybuilders of the same height [2]. I performed a statistical analysis of off-season vs. contest-condition bodybuilders to account for this in the lean body mass prediction equation.
Predicting Maximum Muscular Bodyweight: The Equation

The equation below predicts the maximum lean body mass someone of a given height and bone-structure can achieve without the use of anabolic drugs (there is a link at the end of this article to an online calculator based on all of the formulae presented here).

      Maximum lean body mass = (3.253H + 9.587A + 5.932W - 184.65) x (%bf / 227.27 + 1)
      where,
      H = Height in inches
      A = Ankle circumference at the smallest point
      W = Wrist circumference measured on the hand side of the styloid process.
              (The styloid process is the bony lump on the outside of your wrist.)
      %bf = The body fat percentage at which you want to predict your maximum lean body mass

Very thin ectomorphic men can expect to attain about 95% of the lean body mass that the equation predicts. Likewise, very endo-mesomorphic people, who have disproportionately wide hips and thick torsos, and people whose joints are uncharacteristically small, may be able to exceed the prediction by up to 5%.

So, using this equation, for a 5'9" (69 inches) tall bodybuilder at 10% body fat with 7.0" wrists and 8.7" ankles the equation would yield:

Maximum lean body mass = (3.253 x 69.0 + 9.587 x 8.7 + 5.932 x 7.0 - 184.65) x (10 / 227.27 + 1) = 172.0 pounds.

To convert maximum lean body mass to maximum bodyweight at any given body fat, use this equation:

      Body weight = (Lean body mass / (100 - %body fat) ) x 100

Using our example bodybuilder, at a lean and healthy 10% body fat his total bodyweight would be:

Body weight = (172.0 / (100 - 10) ) x 100 = 191.1 pounds

The formula was developed as an amalgamation of data from past and present drug-free bodybuilding champions and anthropometrics data from the U.S. Army, Navy, and several anthropometrics studies done by various organizations throughout the world (for ergonomic designs, etc.). In addition, a comparison was made with the fat-free mass indexes of champion bodybuilders, as presented in the work of Dr. E. M. Kouri, et. al. A mathematical regression was done to obtain fits based on the heights, wrist sizes and ankle sizes of elite-level drug-free bodybuilding competitors. As the final fit was sufficiently linear in nature, the equation was then linearized to make it more "user-friendly", without sacrificing accuracy.

Table 1 presents a list of drug-free bodybuilding champions both past and present with their actual weights and the weights predicted by the formula. The current champions are unnamed because of the "sensitive" nature of body weights and measurements to actively competing bodybuilders.
Table 1: Bodybuilding Champions Bodybuilder    Actual Weight    Predicted Weight
Clarence Ross    198    198.9
John Farbotnik    195    196.4
George Eiferman    195    194.5
Reg Park    214    214.6
John Grimek    203    206.3
Jack Delinger    195    193.5
Steve Reeves    213    213.0
Current World Champ. "A"    180    180.1
Current World Champ. "B"    175    173.0
Current Nat. 1st Place "A"    190    192.9
Current Nat. 1st Place "B"    185    184.7

The greatest error in the above predictions is less than 1.8%. So, as you can see, the equation is quite accurate for this group of bodybuilders. In addition, these lifters are of varying heights and bone structures to further illustrate the validity of the predictions.

If you are lifetime drug-free, use this formula to set a realistic and accurate bodyweight goal for yourself. If you're like our example bodybuilder of 5'9" tall, with 7" wrists and 8.7" ankles, then forget about weighing a lean 230 pounds. If you get to a lean 190 pounds you'll be carrying as much muscle, with respect to your frame, as an elite-level natural bodybuilder.
Predicting Maximum Muscular Measurements

There have been several sets of equations presented over the years that attempt to predict maximum muscular measurements based on height or wrist size. The problem is they typically don't consider both, and very few of them consider lower body structure size. A popular set of formulae was presented by bodybuilding author John McCallum in the mid-1960s. All predictions were based on wrist size, without the lifter's height taken into consideration. Such an approach can be sufficiently accurate for a lifter of average stature but muscular potential is, to a degree, influenced by height. For instance, a 6'1" tall trainee with an 8" wrist will, generally, have the potential to develop larger muscular measurements than a 5'8" trainee with an 8" wrist. Height must be included in such predictions.

Using a similar procedure as I did in deriving the bodyweight formula, I derived a set of equations that predict muscular measurements in lean condition. Again, height, ankle circumference and wrist circumference are the determining factors. One caveat is in order: People with uncharacteristically small joints for their frames (notably some people of African descent) may be able to exceed some of these predictions by up to approximately 3%.

      chest = 1.6817W + 1.3759A + 0.3314H
      biceps = 1.1709W + 0.1267H
      forearms = 0.9367W + 0.1014H
      neck = 1.1424W + 0.1236H
      thighs = 1.3868W + 0.1805H
      calves = 0.9298W + 0.1210H

      Measurement Procedure:
      chest - measured relaxed (not expanded), arms at sides, tape under armpits
      biceps - flexed, at largest point
      forearms - fist clenched, hand out straight, measured at largest point
      neck - below Adam's apple at smallest point
      thighs - standing relaxed, midway between hip and knee
      calves - standing relaxed, at largest point
      * For all measurements tape should be snug but not compressing the flesh.

For our 5'9" trainee with 7.0" wrists and 8.7" ankles we have:

      chest = 1.6817 x 7.0 + 1.3759 x 8.7 + 0.3314 x 69 = 46.6"
      biceps = 1.1709 x 7.0 + 0.1267 x 69 = 16.9"
      forearms = 0.9367 x 7.0 + 0.1014 x 69 = 13.6"
      neck = 1.1424 x 7.0 + 0.1236 x 69 = 16.5"
      thighs = 1.3868 x 8.7 + 0.1805 x 69 = 24.5"
      calves = 0.9298 x 8.7 + 0.1210 x 69 = 16.4"

Yes, that's a far cry from what some drug-using bodybuilders are achieving. But, like it or not, those numbers represent the maximum measurements that a natural trainee is likely to achieve without drugs, while still maintaining balanced measurements throughout the body. In reality, any trainee who reaches the measurements predicted by these equations will be an impressive physical specimen ...he would have the size and proportions of the bodybuilding legends listed above and of the current drug-free bodybuilding champions.

As an illustration, Table 2 shows how the old-timers and some drug-free elite competitors from 2003-2006 "measured up", along with the predictions of the equations. The actual measurements were taken from a variety of sources that I deem credible, and were taken at body fat levels of approximately 8-10%.
Table 2: Measurements of Drug-free Bodybuilders      Chest    Biceps    Forearms    Neck    Quads    Calves
Bodybuilder    actual/pred    actual/pred    actual/pred    actual/pred    actual/pred    actual/pred
George Eiferman    47.5 / 47.9    16.7 / 17.1    13.4 / 13.7    16.5 / 16.7    25.0 / 25.5    16.0 / 17.1
Reg Park    NA / 50.5    18.5 / 18.5    NA / 14.8    18.0 / 18.0    26.5 / 26.4    17.5 / 17.7
John Grimek    49.9 / 49.8    18.1 / 18.0    14.5 / 14.4    17.7 / 17.6    25.7 / 26.1    17.3 / 17.5
Jack Delinger    47.5 / 47.9    17.2 / 17.4    13.8 / 13.9    16.8 / 17.0    25.0 / 25.1    16.6 / 16.8
Steve Reeves    49.5 / 49.6    18.0 / 18.0    14.5 / 14.4    17.5 / 17.6    26.0 / 26.1    17.9 / 17.5
Current World Champ. "B"    NA / 45.2    16.7 / 16.5    NA / 13.2    15.5 / 16.1    23.0 / 23.6    16.0 / 15.8
Current National 1st Place "A"    47.3 / 48.9    17.5 / 17.7    NA / 14.2    17.8 / 17.3    25.5 / 25.8    16.5 / 17.3
Current National 1st Place "B"    NA / 47.1    17.2 / 17.1    NA / 13.7    17.0 / 16.7    24.5 / 24.7    15.5 / 16.6

Again, the predictions are quite accurate, but they also help illustrate certain points. For instance, you'll notice that many of these bodybuilders have calves smaller than the predicted values, whereas Steve Reeves and World Champion "B" exceeded the predicted values. What you are seeing there is the fact that the calves are a notoriously difficult body part to develop, whereas these competitors were genetically blessed with great calves that responded well to training. Another thing these equations can reflect are outstanding bodyparts. For instance, all the bodybuilders above who exceed the arm prediction - even slightly - are known for their arm development.
Conclusion
What these equations give you is the heaviest lean body mass and largest lean measurements that a natural bodybuilder of the given structure is likely to achieve while maintaining balance throughout the muscle groups of the body. That isn't to say that a bodybuilder won't have a genetically gifted body part(s) that exceeds these predictions, or that he can't surpass these predictions by specializing, perhaps inappropriately, on certain muscle groups. However, it is very unlikely that the rest of the physique, as a whole, would reach that standard. If you have body parts that can exceed the predictions then you'll probably always have to "take it easy" on those muscles or they'll grow out of balance with the rest of your physique. (And if your outstanding body part is a large muscle group like legs or back this can cause your bodyweight to exceed the prediction given by the bodyweight equation.) In this regard, these equations should be viewed more as maximum guidelines than as limitations. On the other hand, perhaps you would like your biceps a little oversized with respect to the rest of your physique.

Also, keep in mind that achieving these measurements doesn't necessarily mean that your body will be "perfect". Measurements don't tell the full story - things such as muscle shape, symmetry, separation and definition can make all the difference. You may find yourself achieving these measurements yet your physique still lacking in certain aspects. Most commonly, if a person reaches these predictions, yet still doesn't appear muscularly impressive, then he's simply too fat - keep in mind that these equations describe a lean condition. On the other hand, if your measurements are significantly under what the equations predict, it probably means you've got some growing left in you yet.
   

Reg Park

In reality, it will take years of dedicated, productive training for most genetically typical trainees to even approach these predictions. Most people will never achieve this level of development ...and measurements taken at higher body fat levels do not reflect true muscular development.

In closing, I want to stress that although these formulae present lofty, but realistic goals for most drug-free trainees, they are not meant to represent "limitations". But you also must realize that in the process of surpassing these predictions you are also surpassing the development of drug-free world champions. Very few people will have the genetic gifts to accomplish that. What the formulae give you is the lean body mass and full-body measurements that you'd need to achieve to be on an equal footing, size-wise, with current drug-free champions and the greats of the drug-free era. I'm not saying that no one can surpass that, but to put it in perspective, you'd need to be carrying more muscle (with respect to your skeletal frame size) than a prime Reg Park in order to do it.


Mars

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2007, 01:21:22 PM »
I love to train natural but i never seen a motivating natural pic, they all look like grashoppers to me, especially ripped.

musclehedz

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2007, 01:46:30 PM »


Insuline/SLIN is considered natural.

Voice of Doom

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2007, 01:59:32 PM »
Clancy Ross:
Born October 26, 1923
Oakland, California, USA

While John Grimek was termed “The Monarch of Muscledom”, Clarence “Clancy” Ross was known as “The King of Bodybuilders”.

This accolade was awarded not so much for actual titles won, but more for how his presence and aura lifted the sport. Ross’ name became legendary because of his proportionately blended muscularity, his graceful posing style and the aesthetics that earned him major magazine exposure.

Not that he didn’t scale the loftiest heights. Ross won the 1945 AAU Mr. America title, the 1946 Pro Mr. America, the 1948 Pro Mr. USA with its $1,000 payday (and in the process relegating a certain Steve Reeves to second place), and the 1949 IFBB North American Championships.

Ross also won the tall class at the 1955 NABBA Pro Mr. Universe in London. He competed for the last time in 1956, finishing second to Bill Pearl in the Pro Mr. USA. Ross played an important role during a very critical stage of the sport’s expansion, and his infusion of class and personality did much to spread the bodybuilding word to the masses.


Inspiring to me

swilkins1984

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2007, 02:06:23 PM »
I gonna catch alot of flack for this one but I think with years of hard training, eating, and good genetics, a natural bb can be as good as Skip Lacour or Jeff Willet. I know they both used Andro before it was banned but afterwards they still looked incredible. Michael Lockett is incredible as well as a natural bb.

figgs

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2007, 02:16:15 PM »
Being a natural is something I take great pride in, but it will never get me to where I want to go. I don't want to compete, but I'd like to reach my ultimate bodybuilding goal that drives me to keep pumping iron. I want to reach the same level of muscular development that guys like Mike Mentzer, Ed Corney, or Robby Robinson had. I'll never reach my goal with the progress I make now. As a truly passionate bodybuilder, I feel as if I deserve more than what I have.

Right now I'm too young and don't even have a job to support a light cycle and the doctor supervision I'd need. Maybe when I have a steady job I'll hop aboard the juice train. ;)
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Max

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2007, 02:17:01 PM »
Biggest natural's i know personally/have seen on stage .............Rob Hope multiple WNBF world champ


And the current WNBF world champ  Jon Harris


natural al

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2007, 02:19:50 PM »
Biggest natural's i know personally/have seen on stage .............Rob Hope multiple WNBF world champ


And the current WNBF world champ  Jon Harris



top guy looks nuts for a natty, bottom guy with the trophy is probably more along the lines of what a regular joe can hope to achieve if they dedicate 100% of thier energy to training, dieting and resting..
nasser=piece of shit

HeartofSteel

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2007, 02:39:41 PM »
He can go as far as his genetics, decipline & dedication allow him to go.

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2007, 02:58:52 PM »
He can go as far as his genetics, decipline & dedication allow him to go.

-HOS


Blahhhh... Did you make that up yourself?... ::)

Rami

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2007, 03:15:07 PM »
define natural first...

Rudee

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2007, 03:32:53 PM »
For a drug-free bodybuilder trying to develop maximum muscle mass, the knowledge of how much muscle can be developed without the use of anabolic drugs would be a very valuable asset. Unfortunately, because of the achievements of drug-using professional, amateur and recreational bodybuilders, many natural lifters either have no idea of their actual potential, they over-estimate what they can realistically achieve or they adopt a defeatist attitude and set their goals too low. Perspective is needed. The ability to set ambitious, yet realistic, goals is needed. And while there is no doubt that through natural bodybuilding a trainee can develop truly impressive, strong muscles, the chances of a drug-free bodybuilder attaining lean 22" arms are about the same as him sprouting wings.

Maximum muscular bodyweight and size potential are positively correlated with a person's height and bone-structure. Reflecting that, there are several formulae in popular use that predict a person's maximum muscular weight based on these variables (with bone-structure size typically estimated by measuring the circumference of the wrist).

Bodybuilding legend Steve Reeves presented simple formulas for calculating what he considered to be ideal muscular weight. He suggested starting with a base of 160 pounds and adding 5 pounds for every inch of height above 5'5". For people above 6'0", he suggested starting with 200 pounds and adding 10 pounds per inch. Using these formulae, a person 5'9" would have an ideal muscular weight of 180 pounds. A person 6'1" would weigh 210 pounds. The problem with these predictions is that they do not consider bone structure size.

In his book, Beyond Brawn, Stuart McRobert also proposed a method of estimating maximum muscular bodyweight. The suggestion is to start with 5'0" as a base height and 100 pounds as a base weight. Then add 10 pounds for every inch of height above 5'0" for a medium bone structure, 8 pounds for a small structure, and 12 pounds for a large structure. Above 5'9" add only half those amounts. A person of 5'9" with a medium structure would weigh 190 pounds. A person of 6'1" with a large structure would weigh 232 pounds. This is a worthwhile refinement of the simple linear approach, but becomes inaccurate when dealing with very large and/or very small structured people.

In the scientific community, Dr. E. M. Kouri, et. al. presented a comparison between the lean body masses of drug-free vs. drug-using lifters based upon their fat-free mass indexes (FFMI) [1]. This formula can be solved for maximum lean body mass at a given height if a maximum FFMI is assumed for drug-free lifters. The problem with doing this, however, is that, again, bone structure is not considered.

What's needed is an accurate and precise formula, based on personal bone structure and height, that gives the maximum lean body mass a trainee can achieve without the use of anabolic drugs.
Predicting Maximum Muscular Bodyweight

The average male serum testosterone level is between 2.7 and 10.7 ng/ml. This imposes a limit on the amount of lean body mass that can be developed and maintained without the use of exogenous anabolic drugs (women's testosterone levels are 20 to 30 times less than this, resulting in less muscle mass potential). Muscular potential is also influenced by muscle belly length, fast-twitch to slow-twitch fiber ratio, etc. So there will be variations in potential between people even of identical bone structures. Consequently, no equation predicting maximum muscular bodyweight will be 100% accurate for everybody.

What such an equation can do, however, is establish an upper limit of potential based on the achievements of drug-free bodybuilding champions. These men possess naturally high testosterone levels, full muscle bellies, and the host of structural characteristics that permit the development of world-class physiques - they reflect the upper limit of male drug-free muscular potential. Therefore, a muscular bodyweight prediction equation based on such a group of men provides an estimate as to the maximum muscular size a person of a given structure is likely to achieve without the use of anabolic drugs and while maintaining a "balanced" physique.

If you have long muscle bellies, good health and hormone levels, a growth supporting diet and lifestyle, and train according to your needs then you should, in time, be able to reach such a predicted muscular weight. If one of these factors doesn't apply to you then your potential will be less. It has been my experience, though, based on over six years of data collection and analysis, that most healthy people can come quite close to what such a formula can predict - if they train correctly for long enough.

One must also consider the case where a person's bone structure tapers at the extremities. For instance, the wrist and ankle circumferences could be "small" but the upper legs and torso structures not correspondingly "small". This trait is somewhat common amongst people of African descent. Some people with strong endomorphic tendencies also have this type of structure. The opposite end of the spectrum is a very slightly built person who has large wrists and ankles. This type of structure also exists. In these cases, it is more difficult to accurately predict muscular potential. I have chosen to present a simplified lean body mass prediction equation, but with the caveat that an adjustment be made for very thinly and thickly built men.

Finally, potential lean body mass increases with body fat percentage. Research has found that very heavy Sumo wrestlers actually carry more lean body mass than bodybuilders of the same height [2]. I performed a statistical analysis of off-season vs. contest-condition bodybuilders to account for this in the lean body mass prediction equation.
Predicting Maximum Muscular Bodyweight: The Equation

The equation below predicts the maximum lean body mass someone of a given height and bone-structure can achieve without the use of anabolic drugs (there is a link at the end of this article to an online calculator based on all of the formulae presented here).

      Maximum lean body mass = (3.253H + 9.587A + 5.932W - 184.65) x (%bf / 227.27 + 1)
      where,
      H = Height in inches
      A = Ankle circumference at the smallest point
      W = Wrist circumference measured on the hand side of the styloid process.
              (The styloid process is the bony lump on the outside of your wrist.)
      %bf = The body fat percentage at which you want to predict your maximum lean body mass

Very thin ectomorphic men can expect to attain about 95% of the lean body mass that the equation predicts. Likewise, very endo-mesomorphic people, who have disproportionately wide hips and thick torsos, and people whose joints are uncharacteristically small, may be able to exceed the prediction by up to 5%.

So, using this equation, for a 5'9" (69 inches) tall bodybuilder at 10% body fat with 7.0" wrists and 8.7" ankles the equation would yield:

Maximum lean body mass = (3.253 x 69.0 + 9.587 x 8.7 + 5.932 x 7.0 - 184.65) x (10 / 227.27 + 1) = 172.0 pounds.

To convert maximum lean body mass to maximum bodyweight at any given body fat, use this equation:

      Body weight = (Lean body mass / (100 - %body fat) ) x 100

Using our example bodybuilder, at a lean and healthy 10% body fat his total bodyweight would be:

Body weight = (172.0 / (100 - 10) ) x 100 = 191.1 pounds

The formula was developed as an amalgamation of data from past and present drug-free bodybuilding champions and anthropometrics data from the U.S. Army, Navy, and several anthropometrics studies done by various organizations throughout the world (for ergonomic designs, etc.). In addition, a comparison was made with the fat-free mass indexes of champion bodybuilders, as presented in the work of Dr. E. M. Kouri, et. al. A mathematical regression was done to obtain fits based on the heights, wrist sizes and ankle sizes of elite-level drug-free bodybuilding competitors. As the final fit was sufficiently linear in nature, the equation was then linearized to make it more "user-friendly", without sacrificing accuracy.

Table 1 presents a list of drug-free bodybuilding champions both past and present with their actual weights and the weights predicted by the formula. The current champions are unnamed because of the "sensitive" nature of body weights and measurements to actively competing bodybuilders.
Table 1: Bodybuilding Champions Bodybuilder    Actual Weight    Predicted Weight
Clarence Ross    198    198.9
John Farbotnik    195    196.4
George Eiferman    195    194.5
Reg Park    214    214.6
John Grimek    203    206.3
Jack Delinger    195    193.5
Steve Reeves    213    213.0
Current World Champ. "A"    180    180.1
Current World Champ. "B"    175    173.0
Current Nat. 1st Place "A"    190    192.9
Current Nat. 1st Place "B"    185    184.7

The greatest error in the above predictions is less than 1.8%. So, as you can see, the equation is quite accurate for this group of bodybuilders. In addition, these lifters are of varying heights and bone structures to further illustrate the validity of the predictions.

If you are lifetime drug-free, use this formula to set a realistic and accurate bodyweight goal for yourself. If you're like our example bodybuilder of 5'9" tall, with 7" wrists and 8.7" ankles, then forget about weighing a lean 230 pounds. If you get to a lean 190 pounds you'll be carrying as much muscle, with respect to your frame, as an elite-level natural bodybuilder.
Predicting Maximum Muscular Measurements

There have been several sets of equations presented over the years that attempt to predict maximum muscular measurements based on height or wrist size. The problem is they typically don't consider both, and very few of them consider lower body structure size. A popular set of formulae was presented by bodybuilding author John McCallum in the mid-1960s. All predictions were based on wrist size, without the lifter's height taken into consideration. Such an approach can be sufficiently accurate for a lifter of average stature but muscular potential is, to a degree, influenced by height. For instance, a 6'1" tall trainee with an 8" wrist will, generally, have the potential to develop larger muscular measurements than a 5'8" trainee with an 8" wrist. Height must be included in such predictions.

Using a similar procedure as I did in deriving the bodyweight formula, I derived a set of equations that predict muscular measurements in lean condition. Again, height, ankle circumference and wrist circumference are the determining factors. One caveat is in order: People with uncharacteristically small joints for their frames (notably some people of African descent) may be able to exceed some of these predictions by up to approximately 3%.

      chest = 1.6817W + 1.3759A + 0.3314H
      biceps = 1.1709W + 0.1267H
      forearms = 0.9367W + 0.1014H
      neck = 1.1424W + 0.1236H
      thighs = 1.3868W + 0.1805H
      calves = 0.9298W + 0.1210H

      Measurement Procedure:
      chest - measured relaxed (not expanded), arms at sides, tape under armpits
      biceps - flexed, at largest point
      forearms - fist clenched, hand out straight, measured at largest point
      neck - below Adam's apple at smallest point
      thighs - standing relaxed, midway between hip and knee
      calves - standing relaxed, at largest point
      * For all measurements tape should be snug but not compressing the flesh.

For our 5'9" trainee with 7.0" wrists and 8.7" ankles we have:

      chest = 1.6817 x 7.0 + 1.3759 x 8.7 + 0.3314 x 69 = 46.6"
      biceps = 1.1709 x 7.0 + 0.1267 x 69 = 16.9"
      forearms = 0.9367 x 7.0 + 0.1014 x 69 = 13.6"
      neck = 1.1424 x 7.0 + 0.1236 x 69 = 16.5"
      thighs = 1.3868 x 8.7 + 0.1805 x 69 = 24.5"
      calves = 0.9298 x 8.7 + 0.1210 x 69 = 16.4"

Yes, that's a far cry from what some drug-using bodybuilders are achieving. But, like it or not, those numbers represent the maximum measurements that a natural trainee is likely to achieve without drugs, while still maintaining balanced measurements throughout the body. In reality, any trainee who reaches the measurements predicted by these equations will be an impressive physical specimen ...he would have the size and proportions of the bodybuilding legends listed above and of the current drug-free bodybuilding champions.

As an illustration, Table 2 shows how the old-timers and some drug-free elite competitors from 2003-2006 "measured up", along with the predictions of the equations. The actual measurements were taken from a variety of sources that I deem credible, and were taken at body fat levels of approximately 8-10%.
Table 2: Measurements of Drug-free Bodybuilders      Chest    Biceps    Forearms    Neck    Quads    Calves
Bodybuilder    actual/pred    actual/pred    actual/pred    actual/pred    actual/pred    actual/pred
George Eiferman    47.5 / 47.9    16.7 / 17.1    13.4 / 13.7    16.5 / 16.7    25.0 / 25.5    16.0 / 17.1
Reg Park    NA / 50.5    18.5 / 18.5    NA / 14.8    18.0 / 18.0    26.5 / 26.4    17.5 / 17.7
John Grimek    49.9 / 49.8    18.1 / 18.0    14.5 / 14.4    17.7 / 17.6    25.7 / 26.1    17.3 / 17.5
Jack Delinger    47.5 / 47.9    17.2 / 17.4    13.8 / 13.9    16.8 / 17.0    25.0 / 25.1    16.6 / 16.8
Steve Reeves    49.5 / 49.6    18.0 / 18.0    14.5 / 14.4    17.5 / 17.6    26.0 / 26.1    17.9 / 17.5
Current World Champ. "B"    NA / 45.2    16.7 / 16.5    NA / 13.2    15.5 / 16.1    23.0 / 23.6    16.0 / 15.8
Current National 1st Place "A"    47.3 / 48.9    17.5 / 17.7    NA / 14.2    17.8 / 17.3    25.5 / 25.8    16.5 / 17.3
Current National 1st Place "B"    NA / 47.1    17.2 / 17.1    NA / 13.7    17.0 / 16.7    24.5 / 24.7    15.5 / 16.6

Again, the predictions are quite accurate, but they also help illustrate certain points. For instance, you'll notice that many of these bodybuilders have calves smaller than the predicted values, whereas Steve Reeves and World Champion "B" exceeded the predicted values. What you are seeing there is the fact that the calves are a notoriously difficult body part to develop, whereas these competitors were genetically blessed with great calves that responded well to training. Another thing these equations can reflect are outstanding bodyparts. For instance, all the bodybuilders above who exceed the arm prediction - even slightly - are known for their arm development.
Conclusion
What these equations give you is the heaviest lean body mass and largest lean measurements that a natural bodybuilder of the given structure is likely to achieve while maintaining balance throughout the muscle groups of the body. That isn't to say that a bodybuilder won't have a genetically gifted body part(s) that exceeds these predictions, or that he can't surpass these predictions by specializing, perhaps inappropriately, on certain muscle groups. However, it is very unlikely that the rest of the physique, as a whole, would reach that standard. If you have body parts that can exceed the predictions then you'll probably always have to "take it easy" on those muscles or they'll grow out of balance with the rest of your physique. (And if your outstanding body part is a large muscle group like legs or back this can cause your bodyweight to exceed the prediction given by the bodyweight equation.) In this regard, these equations should be viewed more as maximum guidelines than as limitations. On the other hand, perhaps you would like your biceps a little oversized with respect to the rest of your physique.

Also, keep in mind that achieving these measurements doesn't necessarily mean that your body will be "perfect". Measurements don't tell the full story - things such as muscle shape, symmetry, separation and definition can make all the difference. You may find yourself achieving these measurements yet your physique still lacking in certain aspects. Most commonly, if a person reaches these predictions, yet still doesn't appear muscularly impressive, then he's simply too fat - keep in mind that these equations describe a lean condition. On the other hand, if your measurements are significantly under what the equations predict, it probably means you've got some growing left in you yet.
   

Reg Park

In reality, it will take years of dedicated, productive training for most genetically typical trainees to even approach these predictions. Most people will never achieve this level of development ...and measurements taken at higher body fat levels do not reflect true muscular development.

In closing, I want to stress that although these formulae present lofty, but realistic goals for most drug-free trainees, they are not meant to represent "limitations". But you also must realize that in the process of surpassing these predictions you are also surpassing the development of drug-free world champions. Very few people will have the genetic gifts to accomplish that. What the formulae give you is the lean body mass and full-body measurements that you'd need to achieve to be on an equal footing, size-wise, with current drug-free champions and the greats of the drug-free era. I'm not saying that no one can surpass that, but to put it in perspective, you'd need to be carrying more muscle (with respect to your skeletal frame size) than a prime Reg Park in order to do it.



Epic Google and Cut & Paste skills.   ::)

SteelePegasus

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2007, 04:08:39 PM »
this to me is perfection!

this is my motivation:
Here comes the money shot

War-Horse

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2007, 04:20:29 PM »
Interesting studies...seems to have taken most variables in mind.

Im glad i didnt read it before i developed my potential.....i will be ripped soon and put it on stage to see im the freak i should be. ;D


Life time drug free.  Will be tested anytime anywhere........

HeartofSteel

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2007, 04:23:44 PM »

Blahhhh... Did you make that up yourself?... ::)

Nahhh it's from pure experience, brotha!

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gh15

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2007, 04:47:09 PM »
only natural i see here is ross,, rest are juiced and hormonized from amphetamines to growth to insulin to simple orals to injectables

ross is pretty much where the best genetics can get you naturally,,the best that is! there are a lot less lucky..
fallen angel

Earl1972

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2007, 04:48:35 PM »
only natural i see here is ross,, rest are juiced and hormonized from amphetamines to growth to insulin to simple orals to injectables

ross is pretty much where the best genetics can get you naturally,,the best that is! there are a lot less lucky..

you don't think layne norton is natural?

E
E

DVSGOD

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2007, 04:56:09 PM »
only natural i see here is ross,, rest are juiced and hormonized from amphetamines to growth to insulin to simple orals to injectables

ross is pretty much where the best genetics can get you naturally,,the best that is! there are a lot less lucky..
Agree  8)

chris2489

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Re: how far can a natural really go?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2007, 08:46:22 PM »
only natural i see here is ross,, rest are juiced and hormonized from amphetamines to growth to insulin to simple orals to injectables

ross is pretty much where the best genetics can get you naturally,,the best that is! there are a lot less lucky..

What about Vince Gironda?