Author Topic: Conservative Values  (Read 5502 times)

Camel Jockey

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2007, 11:59:51 AM »
conservative..repb party...bible thumper..same triangle..different sides..

conservative = advocates absolute free trade, seperation of church and states, reduced role of government, no appologist behavior, right to bear firearms and some propose legalizing drugs.

the repubs are doing the exact opposite with the patriot act and trying to teach creationism in school. they're wasting out money and profiling people via wiretapping etc.

I'm not talking about any sort of party, but values. i'd say you're a conservative person, juaid.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2007, 12:02:20 PM »
i'd say i'm a radical liberal..

we can put a dem spin or a literary anarchist spin on things..

meh..
carpe` vaginum!

Dos Equis

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2007, 12:02:38 PM »
President Bush designated Padilla, an american citizen, an unlawful enemy combatant.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_%28alleged_terrorist%29

The MCA gave Bush legal authority to do that retroactively.

That's how it happened.

If you can find evidence to the contrary, I'll look at it.

As for Section 948B, that's a wonderful preamble but look at the meat of the law re: enemy combatants: 

The term 'unlawful enemy combatant' means – (i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al-Qaeda, or associated forces); or (ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the president or the secretary of defense."

Bruce Ackerman, professor of law at Yale reads it this way:

"Buried in the complex Senate compromise on detainee treatment is a real shocker, reaching far beyond the legal struggles about foreign terrorist suspects in the Guantanamo Bay fortress. The compromise legislation...authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights."

As a matter of statutory construction, the MCA does NOT refer to terrorists or aliens in that paragraph, it refers to 'a person' and that's the problem.

Anyone meeting the definition of "unlawful enemy combatant" is subject to the MCA.  And guess who decides that designation?  (Just look at the Padilla case) 

It is a horribly written constitutionally overbroad law.






From your link:  On June 9, 2002, two days before District Court Judge Michael Mukasey was to issue a ruling on the validity of continuing to hold Padilla under the material witness warrant, President Bush issued an order to Secretary Rumsfeld to detain Padilla as an "enemy combatant," and Padilla was transferred to a military brig in South Carolina without any notice to his attorney or family.

In other words, he was declared an "enemy combatant" by presidential order, not by a law that would be passed four years later.  He has since be charged with, and is being tried for, conspiracy and terrorism.  In fact, he was probably charged with those crimes before the Military Commission Act was passed (not sure).  

Section 948b isn't a "preamble."  It's the purpose of the entire Act.  Section 948a(3) defines an alien as someone who is not an American citizen.  The purpose section, 948b(a) then says the act applies to aliens.  

Camel Jockey

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2007, 12:05:01 PM »
i'd say i'm a radical liberal..

we can put a dem spin or a literary anarchist spin on things..

meh..

Nah, you and I share much of the same views.. I'd call myself a libertarian, which is short of anarchist. Accept government because it is a necessary evil.

radical libs are appologists and are in support of welfare and other nonsense. The Imus fiasco displayed radical liberalism at its finest.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2007, 12:06:46 PM »
liberalism at its finest.

thats liberalism...the word RADICAL is a deviation from that...
carpe` vaginum!

Decker

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2007, 12:19:14 PM »
From your link:  On June 9, 2002, two days before District Court Judge Michael Mukasey was to issue a ruling on the validity of continuing to hold Padilla under the material witness warrant, President Bush issued an order to Secretary Rumsfeld to detain Padilla as an "enemy combatant," and Padilla was transferred to a military brig in South Carolina without any notice to his attorney or family.

In other words, he was declared an "enemy combatant" by presidential order, not by a law that would be passed four years later.  He has since be charged with, and is being tried for, conspiracy and terrorism.  In fact, he was probably charged with those crimes before the Military Commission Act was passed (not sure).  

Section 948b isn't a "preamble."  It's the purpose of the entire Act.  Section 948a(3) defines an alien as someone who is not an American citizen.  The purpose section, 948b(a) then says the act applies to aliens.  
MSA recognized Bush's executive order as legal retroactively.

The reason that the law is overbroad and horrible is b/c it does not exclude citizens from being enemy combatants.  It applies to citizens. 

Can the president determine who is an enemy combatant?

Yes.

How do we know?

The MCA authorizes him to do so retroactively, ("Retroactive" means to operate with respect to past occurrences.  (The same thing happened with the propriety of torture)) now and in the forseeable future.

Does that include US citizens?

Yes.

Jose Padilla is a US citizen.

Dos Equis

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2007, 12:34:09 PM »
MSA recognized Bush's executive order as legal retroactively.

The reason that the law is overbroad and horrible is b/c it does not exclude citizens from being enemy combatants.  It applies to citizens. 

Can the president determine who is an enemy combatant?

Yes.

How do we know?

The MCA authorizes him to do so retroactively, ("Retroactive" means to operate with respect to past occurrences.  (The same thing happened with the propriety of torture)) now and in the forseeable future.

Does that include US citizens?

Yes.

Jose Padilla is a US citizen.

What section of the MCA recognized Bush's order? 

Decker I guess you will believe the MCA applies to American citizens regardless of what the MCA actually says.  We should have this discussion when an American citizen is charged and prosecuted under the MCA, and that prosecution is upheld by some federal judge.  I get the feeling we'll never have that discussion . . . .

The Enigma

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2007, 12:42:55 PM »
Are "conservative values" the same oxymoron as "compassionate conservative" under Bush ?


Just wondering............

Decker

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2007, 01:18:17 PM »
What section of the MCA recognized Bush's order? 

Decker I guess you will believe the MCA applies to American citizens regardless of what the MCA actually says.  We should have this discussion when an American citizen is charged and prosecuted under the MCA, and that prosecution is upheld by some federal judge.  I get the feeling we'll never have that discussion . . . .
(2) RETROACTIVE APPLICABILITY- The amendments made by this subsection, except as specified in subsection (d)(2)(E) of section 2441 of title 18, United States Code, shall take effect as of November 26, 1997, as if enacted immediately after the amendments made by section 583 of Public Law 105-118 (as amended by section 4002(e)(7) of Public Law 107-273).

See now we are getting dicey here. 

While a US citizen cannot be prosecuted under the MCA, his rights to HC can be stripped away by the MCA if he is deemed an enemy combatant.  W/out the right to petition the court w/ a writ of HC, how can the US citizen/enemy combatant challenge the accusation?

He can't. 

That's a big problem.


Dos Equis

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2007, 01:36:56 PM »
(2) RETROACTIVE APPLICABILITY- The amendments made by this subsection, except as specified in subsection (d)(2)(E) of section 2441 of title 18, United States Code, shall take effect as of November 26, 1997, as if enacted immediately after the amendments made by section 583 of Public Law 105-118 (as amended by section 4002(e)(7) of Public Law 107-273).

See now we are getting dicey here. 

While a US citizen cannot be prosecuted under the MCA, his rights to HC can be stripped away by the MCA if he is deemed an enemy combatant.  W/out the right to petition the court w/ a writ of HC, how can the US citizen/enemy combatant challenge the accusation?

He can't. 

That's a big problem.



O.K.  Thanks, but you have to translate the legalese.   :)  I don't see any reference to Padilla.  How does the following language apply to Padilla?  "November 26, 1997, as if enacted immediately after the amendments made by section 583 of Public Law 105-118 (as amended by section 4002(e)(7) of Public Law 107-273)."  The way I read this is it applies to all aliens designated as enemy combatants as of 26 Nov. 97. 

Was Padilla ever charged under the MCA?

Nothing would prevent an American citizen wrongfully deemed an alien enemy combatant under the MCA from filing something in federal court.  I would be shocked if a federal judge refused to hear whatever petition was filed.   

w8tlftr

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2007, 03:20:58 PM »
Gotta Love that traditional conservative response, "America, Love it or leave it!"  No matter that this country is becoming more fascist- don't criticize the government!  You people will get the police state you deserve.

Blah blah blah.... take another hit of acid, pack your shit and get the fvck out.

It's funny though... to hear left wing socialists like you complaining about fascism and centralized government.

Get this through your drug induced skull. True conservatives destest everything you listed and will fight anyone who tries to infringe upon their God given liberties.


w8tlftr

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2007, 03:22:39 PM »
You mean republican party values

True conservatives would opposed the republican party and their nonsense.

Amen.

The Republican party has gone to shit.


Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2007, 04:36:26 PM »
True conservatives destest everything you listed and will fight anyone who tries to infringe upon their God given liberties.

Yep

It's ashame so many of todays so called conservatives aren't...  >:(

S

Camel Jockey

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2007, 04:37:25 PM »
Yep

It's ashame so many of todays so called conservatives are neo cons...  >:(

Yes!

Man Coulter and Russian Limbo come to mind.

headhuntersix

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2007, 04:38:52 PM »
I think Coulter is closer then Rush..he spent way to long apologizing for Bush and the neocons....
L

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2007, 04:39:32 PM »
Yes!

Man Coulter and Russian Limbo come to mind.

It's a shame.

Quote
OH MY FUCKING GOD TERRORISM ABORTION AND SATANISTS OMG OMG OMG OMG FUCCKK LIBERTY KEEP ME SAFE!!!!!
S

Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2007, 04:39:57 PM »
True conservatives destest everything you listed and will fight anyone who tries to infringe upon their God given liberties.

Well, the republican party's "true" conservatives haven't been very vocal about criticizing Bush's policies.  
Stick out your tongue.

headhuntersix

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2007, 04:48:09 PM »
Perhaps the only think u have ever gotten right here. You will here more if Newt gets involved.
L

Decker

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2007, 06:22:30 AM »
O.K.  Thanks, but you have to translate the legalese.   :)  I don't see any reference to Padilla.  How does the following language apply to Padilla?  "November 26, 1997, as if enacted immediately after the amendments made by section 583 of Public Law 105-118 (as amended by section 4002(e)(7) of Public Law 107-273)."  The way I read this is it applies to all aliens designated as enemy combatants as of 26 Nov. 97. 

Was Padilla ever charged under the MCA?

Nothing would prevent an American citizen wrongfully deemed an alien enemy combatant under the MCA from filing something in federal court.  I would be shocked if a federal judge refused to hear whatever petition was filed.   
I haven't looked at the legislative history of the law so I don't know what the underlying debate is about re retroactivation of the law.  But the '97 retro date is in reference to the provisions re torture while the rest of the bill is retro to any person detained since 9/11/2001.  If I were to guess, I would have guessed that the Clinton administration was authorizing rendition or torture and wanted his ass covered by the law.  But that's a guess.

Padilla was arrested in 2002.  The law doesn't have to reference Padilla by name.  All it has to do is grant the president authority to detain suspects as 'illegal enemy combatants' and that would comprehend Padilla's specific case.

There're also arguments I read that brought back to mind the idea of fundamental rights from our constitution.  Fundamental rights apply to non-citizens as well as citizens.  So non-citizen aliens enjoy the same constitutional protection as you and I do when it comes to habeus corpus.

But that's another argument and frankly, I have a headache at the moment. 

Where's my damn ibuprofen?

w8tlftr

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2007, 07:12:16 PM »
Well, the republican party's "true" conservatives haven't been very vocal about criticizing Bush's policies. 

Bullshit.

Listen to talk radio. They are all over Bush and his piece of shit immigration plan.


Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2007, 09:31:22 AM »
Bullshit.

Listen to talk radio. They are all over Bush and his piece of shit immigration plan.

Bump for Air America!  8)
Stick out your tongue.

w8tlftr

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2007, 02:42:36 PM »
Bump for Air America!  8)

Didn't they go bankrupt? Something about lack of a listening audience?

And it's conservative talk radio that is busting Bush's balls on this piece of shit amnesty plan.


headhuntersix

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2007, 06:27:02 PM »
I love Savage and he hates Bush.....I can't listen to Rush anymore
L

OzmO

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2007, 06:36:54 PM »
I love Savage and he hates Bush.....I can't listen to Rush anymore

The coach will be so disappointed in you.

headhuntersix

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Re: Conservative Values
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2007, 06:50:02 PM »
I can't do it man..he shilled for Bush..and more so Rummy....for way to long. I don't hate Bush but the neocons fucked us
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