Those far-left nuts at the ACLU

[Decker]

See the post by Colossus a few posts up.  That's one of about 999 references to the Christianity and the Christian God by our founding fathers. 

Those references are not in the US Constitution.

[Hedgehog]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

-Hedge

[Decker]

As for the alleged destructive bent of the ACLU and innocent practicing Christians, how do opponents of the ACLU explain these cases?:

The American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey today praised a decision by U.S. District Court Judge Freda L. Wolfson protecting the religious expression rights of students. The court held that a Frenchtown Elementary School student had the right to sing the song "Awesome God" at a school talent show. The ACLU-NJ submitted a friend-of-the-court brief in support of the student. http://www.aclu-nj.org/pressroom/aclunjdefendsreligiousexpr.htm

The ACLU has long argued that veterans and their families should be free to choose religious symbols on military headstones – whether Crosses, Stars of David, Pentacles, or other symbols – and that the government should not be permitted to restrict such religious expression in federal cemeteries. http://www.aclu.org/religion/frb/29459prs20070423.html

The ACLU of Nevada (2005) defended the free exercise rights and free speech rights of evangelical Christians to preach on the sidewalks of the Strip in Las Vegas. www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=3379553&nav=15MVaB2T

The ACLU of New Mexico (2005) joined forces with the American Family Association to succeed in freeing a preacher, Shawn Miller, from the Roosevelt County jail, where he was held for 109 days for street preaching. The ACLU became involved at the request of Miller's wife, Theresa. www.stcynic.com/blog/ archives/2005/08/aclu_defends_another_street_pr.php; www.aclu.org/religion/gen/19918prs20050804.html

The ACLU of Nevada (2004) represented a Mormon high school student, Kim Jacobs, who school authorities suspended and then attempted to expel for not complying with the school dress code and wearing T-shirts with religious messages. Jacobs won a preliminary victory in court where the judge ruled the school could not expel her for not complying with the dress code. The First Amendment issue of student expression is before the Ninth Circuit. www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/text/2004/sep/09/517482854.html; www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2004/nov/19/517853141.html

The Indiana Civil Liberties Union (2004) filed suit against the city of Scottsburg for their repeated threats of arrest and/or citation against members of the Old Paths Baptist Church for demonstrating regarding various subjects dealing with their religious beliefs. www.iclu.org/news/news_article.asp?ID=978

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

-Hedge

Bump for a good link.

[Camel Jockey]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

-Hedge

Thanks, Hedge.

John Adams and Thomas Jefferson mades as many quotes against faith as they did for it.

And like I said, this nation was founded on the philosophy of men like Locke, Smith, Hume and was also influenced by ancient Greece and Rome.

[Dos Equis]

Those references are not in the US Constitution.

So?  Neither is the infamous "wall of separation between church and state" reference used by the courts. 

[Dos Equis]

As for the alleged destructive bent of the ACLU and innocent practicing Christians, how do opponents of the ACLU explain these cases?:

The American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey today praised a decision by U.S. District Court Judge Freda L. Wolfson protecting the religious expression rights of students. The court held that a Frenchtown Elementary School student had the right to sing the song "Awesome God" at a school talent show. The ACLU-NJ submitted a friend-of-the-court brief in support of the student. http://www.aclu-nj.org/pressroom/aclunjdefendsreligiousexpr.htm

The ACLU has long argued that veterans and their families should be free to choose religious symbols on military headstones – whether Crosses, Stars of David, Pentacles, or other symbols – and that the government should not be permitted to restrict such religious expression in federal cemeteries. http://www.aclu.org/religion/frb/29459prs20070423.html

The ACLU of Nevada (2005) defended the free exercise rights and free speech rights of evangelical Christians to preach on the sidewalks of the Strip in Las Vegas. www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=3379553&nav=15MVaB2T

The ACLU of New Mexico (2005) joined forces with the American Family Association to succeed in freeing a preacher, Shawn Miller, from the Roosevelt County jail, where he was held for 109 days for street preaching. The ACLU became involved at the request of Miller's wife, Theresa. www.stcynic.com/blog/ archives/2005/08/aclu_defends_another_street_pr.php; www.aclu.org/religion/gen/19918prs20050804.html

The ACLU of Nevada (2004) represented a Mormon high school student, Kim Jacobs, who school authorities suspended and then attempted to expel for not complying with the school dress code and wearing T-shirts with religious messages. Jacobs won a preliminary victory in court where the judge ruled the school could not expel her for not complying with the dress code. The First Amendment issue of student expression is before the Ninth Circuit. www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/text/2004/sep/09/517482854.html; www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2004/nov/19/517853141.html

The Indiana Civil Liberties Union (2004) filed suit against the city of Scottsburg for their repeated threats of arrest and/or citation against members of the Old Paths Baptist Church for demonstrating regarding various subjects dealing with their religious beliefs. www.iclu.org/news/news_article.asp?ID=978

What this tells me is the ACLU does some great things.  I've acknowledged they have.  They also take extremist positions, as Colossus pointed out in this thread. 

[Dos Equis]

I guess you haven't heard of the Establishment Clause, more commonly known as separation of church and state.  No government body can require religious observation of any type.  That is freedom from religion.

The Establishment Clause says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."  It doesn't say society shall be free from religion and all religious influences.   

[Decker]

So?  Neither is the infamous "wall of separation between church and state" reference used by the courts. 

I'm not saying that a "wall of separation between church and state" is written in the Constitution.

Although it is undeniable that subsequent Sup. Ct. Caselaw relies on that principle quite heavily in relation to the Establishment Clause.

[Dos Equis]

I'm not saying that a "wall of separation between church and state" is written in the Constitution.

Although it is undeniable that subsequent Sup. Ct. Caselaw relies on that principle quite heavily in relation to the Establishment Clause.

But Decker you're saying the numerous references to God and Christianity are not in our Constitution to support the argument that "our Creator" isn't referring to the Christian God.  Isn't that a little inconsistent?     

[Decker]

But Decker you're saying the numerous references to God and Christianity are not in our Constitution to support the argument that "our Creator" isn't referring to the Christian God.  Isn't that a little inconsistent?     

A Christian god would be Jesus.  Jesus is not mentioned in the Constitution.

As for a generic term 'creator', they do not refer to any denominational god.  Creator does not = Christian god. 

Could you point out in the Constitution where 'God' is written?

[Dos Equis]

A Christian god would be Jesus.  Jesus is not mentioned in the Constitution.

As for a generic term 'creator', they do not refer to any denominational god.  Creator does not = Christian god. 

Could you point out in the Constitution where 'God' is written?

We're kind of going in circles.  The Constitution doesn't mention "God," just like it doesn't mention the "wall of separation between church and state."  What the courts did was look at other historical documents to interpret the First Amendment.  If you're being consistent, you should do the same when interpreting what "our Creator" is actually referring to. 

[militarymuscle69]

What you idiots fail to see in the first amendment is where it says seperation of church and state...oh yeah it doesn't. It says the government will not prohibit free exercise of religion which is what the ACLU does on a daily basis. If my kid wants to pray in a public school, that is his 1st amendment right. The government can't make it mandatory but they can't stop it either.

[Decker]

What you idiots fail to see in the first amendment is where it says seperation of church and state...oh yeah it doesn't. It says the government will not prohibit free exercise of religion which is what the ACLU does on a daily basis. If my kid wants to pray in a public school, that is his 1st amendment right. The government can't make it mandatory but they can't stop it either.

If your kid wants to pray to himself in a public school he can.  We are not mind readers.  If he wants to pray with others he can as long as it doesn't interfere with school operations.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer.

 "Nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech.

Show me the caselaw where the ACLU violates any of the above rules.

[militarymuscle69]

If your kid wants to pray to himself in a public school he can.  We are not mind readers.  If he wants to pray with others he can as long as it doesn't interfere with school operations.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer.

 "Nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech.

Show me the caselaw where the ACLU violates any of the above rules.

You are telling me you know of no situations where the ACLU has tried to get prayer or christian symbols removed from a school?

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

You are telling me you know of no situations where the ACLU has tried to get prayer or christian symbols removed from a school?

Not private schools, only state-funded public schools.  Remember, separation of church and state!  Hurray!

[Colossus_500]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

-Hedge

Actually, I've run across nobeliefs.com when googling other Christian information  (I think there's more information against Christianity than for it lol) .  Now, I could take the cowardly route and flat out reject it just based on the source of information, like most folks do when I put up a link from Christian source.  

[militarymuscle69]

Not private schools, only state-funded public schools.  Remember, separation of church and state!  Hurray!

Hurray!!! I mean our country was such a horrible place during the days when school began with the pledge of allegience and prayer! phew, glad that has given way to the shit heads we are producing in school now a days.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Hurray!!! I mean our country was such a horrible place during the days when school began with the pledge of allegience and prayer!

Nothing like training nationalism into them when they're young!  Creates more soldiers willing to go kill people in foreign lands, naively believing they are "heroes."

[Decker]

You are telling me you know of no situations where the ACLU has tried to get prayer or christian symbols removed from a school?

I'm asking you.  You made the allegation.

[militarymuscle69]

Nothing like training nationalism into them when they're young!  Creates more soldiers willing to go kill people in foreign lands, naively believing they are "heroes."

how much did it hurt our country in the 40s 50s 60s?

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Korean war, Vietnam war.  More foreign invasions to kill others.

[Hedgehog]

Actually, I've run across nobeliefs.com when googling other Christian information  (I think there's more information against Christianity than for it lol) .  Now, I could take the cowardly route and flat out reject it just based on the source of information, like most folks do when I put up a link from Christian source. 

I see your point, and nobeliefs.com is definitely argumental.

However, the facts on the page I linked are what they are, and at least, they're fodder for discussion.

FWIW, I thought the page seemed to have most of it straight.

But I can, as always, be wrong.

-Hedge

[militarymuscle69]

Korean war, Vietnam war.  More foreign invasions to kill others.

Yeah the south koreans really hate us!! lol, loser

and I am betting you won't hear many Vietnamese say they wish communism had succeeded

[tu_holmes]

What you idiots fail to see in the first amendment is where it says seperation of church and state...oh yeah it doesn't. It says the government will not prohibit free exercise of religion which is what the ACLU does on a daily basis. If my kid wants to pray in a public school, that is his 1st amendment right. The government can't make it mandatory but they can't stop it either.

Haha... we're all idiots.

You're right... if your kid wants to pray... by himself... good for him.

What do I care?

Do I think the ACLU goes too far... sure sometimes, but it also does a lot of good to protect your right to freedom of religion.

The ACLU is here to protect the constitution... Do people not like the constitution all of a sudden?

We're kind of going in circles.  The Constitution doesn't mention "God," just like it doesn't mention the "wall of separation between church and state."  What the courts did was look at other historical documents to interpret the First Amendment.  If you're being consistent, you should do the same when interpreting what "our Creator" is actually referring to. 

I would disagree as that when you read Article 1:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


It makes NO LAW respecting it OR prohibiting it.

That seems pretty plain... Religion is not to be in government... If you go to government funded schools... Then guess what, that's in the government.

I don't see why people have a sticking point on this when the Constitution says it so plainly.