Question for 240 or Bust

[Hedgehog]

I've seen you claim to be a utilitarian.

I know you are a gun owner.

Countries with strict gun laws have less murders per capita than USA (Sweden had cerca 250 murders last year on a 9 million population).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders#Demographics

As you are a utilitarian, I suppose you support strict gun control.

If not, please give me your argument why not to.

-Hedge

[240 is Back]

i'm not a util.

but the people who run countries are.

i don't like it, but i accept the reality of it.

[Hedgehog]

i'm not a util.

but the people who run countries are.

i don't like it, but i accept the reality of it.

Funny you should state that.

util runs the nation.   911 was utilitarianism.  the mid east wars will cost us under 10k lives but will significantly improve the lives of 2 billion americans over 150 years.  It's calming to finally figure things out.  greater good rules.

you know, it's so funny.  I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most folks on the politics board, agree with me on most issues.   (you have the outliers like Beach Bum who start stuff for no reason, but hey, he's a clinton voter and wants to import 7k iraqis into our streets).

But most don't agree with me on 9/11.  I think in time, that will change.  Recall that I spent 3 or 4 months, watching the lectures, films of the collapse in slow mo, and studying the economics, politics, and goals behind 9/11.   I believe it was at the very least, allowed to happen and that explosives were used.  I believe Americans will all know in a few years.  And I believe no one will every do a minute of jail time for it.

it was the most incredible, bold, evil, insane day in US history, but it did more to further US goals than any other day in history.  In 100 years, peolpe will probably thank dick cheney for running things that day.  Seriously.  Bush will be remembered as the guy who "brought democracy to the middle east" and secured our place as the GLOBAL ENERGY SUPERPOWER.   No one remembers dead people.  The soldiers, 911 victims, and hundreds of thousands of people we pave over in the sand, they matter naught.  it's a world where we all die, we all have the same insecurities about what's next, and really, money doesn't change a thing.

A beautiful thing, this life is.  The world is an incredible thing to watch!

I voted Bush then Dole while you were wearing a clinton button.
I carry a gun every day of my life.
I am against most social welfare BS, I want criminals locked up. 
I support the war because we need the oil and the position over CHI/RUS.

I have a masters in business/econ, and a degree in history.  I spent a year looking at 911 before i spoke a word about it.  Joe, it was allowed to happen to justify these wars.  you don't have to believe it - and if it helps, I don't believe bush had any say in it - that decision was made way over his head by the groups which control GLOBAL policy, not 4-year popularity contests called presidencies.  And I can understand, in the util sense, why it was allowed to happen - we needed that oil and position.



I'm not a liberal.  I think you know that.  I'd execute 10 death row criminals then 10 jihadists with my sidearm in the time it would take most people to blink and clear their throat.  I'm a fairly cold man   I like justice, I love america.  but the facts show, we knew it was gonna happen and we didn't act.  So don't call me a lib, I am not.  I just like to talk about 911, and I don't like it when people who haven't researched it will tell me I"m wrong - when I am right on this.

-Hedge

[240 is Back]

it's too early to think that much.

i'm all about personal freedoms.  but the leaders of every nation are about util and longterm viability and sustainability.  most of it is morally disgusting.  i don't support it, but in their positions, it might be the choice that has to be made given circumstances.  since neither of us will never have any effect on any decisions made, why not just go have a bagel and enjoy the day?

[Hedgehog]

it's too early to think that much.

i'm all about personal freedoms.  but the leaders of every nation are about util and longterm viability and sustainability.  most of it is morally disgusting.  i don't support it, but in their positions, it might be the choice that has to be made given circumstances.  since neither of us will never have any effect on any decisions made, why not just go have a bagel and enjoy the day?

You don't support it?

Please clarify.

I support the war because we need the oil and the position over CHI/RUS.

-Hedge

[Dos Equis]

lol.  Nooooo.  Not the facts again.    

[Hedgehog]

it's too early to think that much.

i'm all about personal freedoms.  but the leaders of every nation are about util and longterm viability and sustainability.  most of it is morally disgusting.  i don't support it, but in their positions, it might be the choice that has to be made given circumstances.  since neither of us will never have any effect on any decisions made, why not just go have a bagel and enjoy the day?

You don't support it?

Please clarify.

I support the war because we need the oil and the position over CHI/RUS.

So do you, or do you not support it?

-Hedge

[240 is Back]

i don't support it when i'm sitting online feeling ethical.  but if I had to push a button which would end all war, but send the US back to where it would be without those wars, i wouldn't do it.  I'm a hypocrite, i'll admit it.  I don't like the war, and i hate fvckers who argue it's about rainbows and cotton candy when it's really about bases and oil... but i wouldn't stop it if if meant losing my standard of life.  I admit it's a poor moral position to have.

[Hedgehog]

i don't support it when i'm sitting online feeling ethical.  but if I had to push a button which would end all war, but send the US back to where it would be without those wars, i wouldn't do it.  I'm a hypocrite, i'll admit it.  I don't like the war, and i hate fvckers who argue it's about rainbows and cotton candy when it's really about bases and oil... but i wouldn't stop it if if meant losing my standard of life.  I admit it's a poor moral position to have.

So why don't you support gun control?

Or rather: Do you or do you not support gun control?

And why/why not?



-Hedge

[240 is Back]

cause i know police response times average 11 minutes.

[Hedgehog]

cause i know police response times average 11 minutes.

In countries with strict gun control laws, murder rates are much lower than in the USA.

What do you make of that?

-Hedge

[240 is Back]

In countries with strict gun control laws, murder rates are much lower than in the USA.

What do you make of that?

-Hedge

I bet muggings and beatings are a lot higher tho.  i dont like those either.

[Hedgehog]

I bet muggings and beatings are a lot higher tho.  i dont like those either.

If strict gun laws would bring down the crime rate significantly, and make the streets much safer, would you support such laws?

-Hedge

[headhuntersix]

No way in hell......u can't turn back the clock....law abiding citcizens would not be safe here. Every time some crap happens i look for better rounds for my .45. They have this new stuff that comes apart inside the target..no need to hit center mass..if u wing em they bleed to death. Sorry hedge i know ur appalled and I'm sorry.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

i don't support it when i'm sitting online feeling ethical. 

but i wouldn't stop it if if meant losing my standard of life.  I admit it's a poor moral position to have.

I guess your MBA program didn't have a business ethics class.

[headhuntersix]

His postion reflects common sense..the playing field is not now, nor has it ever been equal. We do what we have to to survive.

[Hedgehog]

His postion reflects common sense..the playing field is not now, nor has it ever been equal. We do what we have to to survive.

240 or Bust claims he supports the war, based on that he thinks it is necessary to upheld the living standard for him.

I am interested to know if he would use this way of reasoning on other issues as well.

That's all.

-Hedge

[headhuntersix]

A good question.....its comes down to what we can afford to do to maintain our standard of living without selling our soul. American does a pretty good job across the board. it evens out. Right now...not so much.

[240 is Back]

If strict gun laws would bring down the crime rate significantly, and make the streets much safer, would you support such laws?

No.  Because there would be a period of instability where only the bad guys had guns. 

I guess your MBA program didn't have a business ethics class.

I'm the first to admit I'm a POS for supporting it.  I used to be very anti-war, then I started to believe (true or untrue, i do not know) a few things:  If we don't exploit the oil, someone else will. If we don't grab that position to hit RUS/CHI, they very well might hit us first, or come to OUR door in 15 years with a bogus WMD claim.  If we don't get that oil, our economy (being killed in mnfg now) will break.

If you can prove those 3 aren't true, I will happily go back to criticizing this war.  But I believe it was done by those in charge here with the greatest good of 300 mil people in mind, 100 years down the road (with their own pilfering, of course).  Is it evil by every moral and ethics code around? Sure.  Could I make that decision to kill that many iraqis?  No I couldn't.  But I can't criticize them as long as I drive an SUV and live in a large house and reap the spoils.

[Hedgehog]

No.  Because there would be a period of instability where only the bad guys had guns. 

I'm the first to admit I'm a POS for supporting it.  I used to be very anti-war, then I started to believe (true or untrue, i do not know) a few things:  If we don't exploit the oil, someone else will. If we don't grab that position to hit RUS/CHI, they very well might hit us first, or come to OUR door in 15 years with a bogus WMD claim.  If we don't get that oil, our economy (being killed in mnfg now) will break.

If you can prove those 3 aren't true, I will happily go back to criticizing this war.  But I believe it was done by those in charge here with the greatest good of 300 mil people in mind, 100 years down the road (with their own pilfering, of course).  Is it evil by every moral and ethics code around? Sure.  Could I make that decision to kill that many iraqis?  No I couldn't.  But I can't criticize them as long as I drive an SUV and live in a large house and reap the spoils.

How are you able to live with that everyday, viewing yourself as a POS?

No offence, just curious.

As far as proving that USA isn't in it for the oil, I can't. Because I believe it to be true. But unlike you, I don't think occupying a country is the right way to go, even from a utilitarian point of view.

It will create more problems than the goodies it will bring.

Ultimately, I think USA needs to get rid of the oil dependency.

Look at Japan. They don't have oil. Still they make some of the best cars in the world, and gas efficient, and they're also leading the way in alternative fuels. Their railway system is arguably the best in the world, with Shinkantsen shipping millions of Japs back and forth to work every day, and has, ever since the 70's.

They never became energy efficient because of the environment. But rather, because they didn't have oil or that many natural resources, unlike USA.

You think Japan has a low living standard?

(That's a rhetorical question )

Do you see what I'm getting at?

USA is currently fighting for resources. We can probably agree on that.

But do USA really have to do that?

I don't think so.

USA has lots of natural resources, and border to Canada, a country with the biggest oil reserve in the world, also Venezuela is close (good diplomatic relations with Venezuela has to be a priority for the coming president).

A change in course from SUVs to efficient cars, and other energy sparing changes.

Again, look at the Japs. Do they live in caves?

No.

-Hedge

[240 is Back]

IMO the japanese have lower living standards, and higher productivity, than americans, on a macro scale.

Of course it would work if we had the work ethic, drive, performance of their employees.
Of course it would work if we didn't need huge houses and SUVs and other high consumables.

But I can change to that lifestyle tomorrow, and 299,999,999 other Americans will not.

[militarymuscle69]

IMO the japanese have lower living standards, and higher productivity, than americans, on a macro scale.

Of course it would work if we had the work ethic, drive, performance of their employees.
Of course it would work if we didn't need huge houses and SUVs and other high consumables.

But I can change to that lifestyle tomorrow, and 299,999,999 other Americans will not.

look lets end this...if you looked like 240 wouldn't you carry a gun?

[Hedgehog]

Of course it would work if we didn't need huge houses and SUVs and other high consumables.

Americans need SUV's?



Then why are the numbers for SUV's sold dropping by over 20%?

-Hedge

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

But I can change to that lifestyle tomorrow, and 299,999,999 other Americans will not.

You paint yourself as so much more capable that everyone else.  But the reality that you will do nothing different tomorrow, or next year.

[Eyeball Chambers]