I think I'm beginning to see BUSH's immigration proposal, not that i agree

[OzmO]

I think I'm beginning to understand BUSH's immigration proposal....

here's the thing:  we have 12 million or so illegal immigrants with perhaps upward of 5 million children born in the United States who by the 14th amendment of the United States are US citizens. 

-  If we deport the parents we become the first country to deport it's own citizens

-  If the children stay and the parents go, we burden our aid system, foster parents etc..., and separate families.  of course this isn't the choice the parents will make I'm sure. 

Combine that with the economic fall out of 12 million under paid workers leaving the US and you can see why the government has suggested what it has.

[240 is Back]

good point.  what to do with their kids? 

there isn't really a solution.  Perhaps the best solution would have been to tighten the borders so no MORE get in, and just kinda ignore the ones that are near. 

Cause most aren't gonna pay that $5k or $10k penalty fee. 

[OzmO]

good point.  what to do with their kids? 

there isn't really a solution.  Perhaps the best solution would have been to tighten the borders so no MORE get in, and just kinda ignore the ones that are near. 

Cause most aren't gonna pay that $5k or $10k penalty fee. 

i could just be easily clouded in my hatred for BUSH but when this proposal came out it didn't seem the status quo for the BUSH administration.  I think now i see why they suggested it.

[Cap]

I think I'm beginning to understand BUSH's immigration proposal....

here's the thing:  we have 12 million or so illegal immigrants with perhaps upward of 5 million children born in the United States who by the 14th amendment of the United States are US citizens. 

-  If we deport the parents we become the first country to deport it's own citizens Explain this because the children would not be deported.  They are the only CITIZENS in this equation

-  If the children stay and the parents go, we burden our aid system, foster parents etc..., and separate families.  of course this isn't the choice the parents will make I'm sure.  If they go, they go.  That is their prerogative.

Combine that with the economic fall out of 12 million under paid workers leaving the US and you can see why the government has suggested what it has. And if they get citizenship, watch prices on everything go up because they will demand the same wages which are on the rise to $7 an hour.  The AFL-CIO has stated that this is their goal.

good point.  what to do with their kids?  They should have thought about that when NOT applying for citizenship.  The government is not making any CITIZENS leave.  And are all their children LEGAL?  I know kids in US colleges who are 21 and not LEGAL.

there isn't really a solution.  Perhaps the best solution would have been to tighten the borders so no MORE get in, and just kinda ignore the ones that are near.  And kick the rest out.

Cause most aren't gonna pay that $5k or $10k penalty fee.  Then they must go.  They pay ZERO income taxes and thus save their money from taxes as most are paid under the table. 5 grand is easy for them.  If they don't pay. Bye.

[OzmO]

CAP,  then the children are separated form their families......that's not right.

Are you so crass you can't see the problem with that?

Also i told you i didn't think it was good idea BUSH had, only that now i see why it they thought of it.

[240 is Back]

What should we do with those 5 million kids who will be without parents, most of whom might not speak English?

[Cap]

What should we do with those 5 million kids who will be without parents, most of whom might not speak English?

Tell them that mom and dad should have become citizens in the 20 years prior.  It is a family problem.  Them not speaking English is their own fault for not assimilating.  It blows for them but it shows what following laws and accepting responsibility is all about.  If they have family here, what is the problem?

[240 is Back]

Tell them that mom and dad should have become citizens in the 20 years prior.  It is a family problem.  Them not speaking English is their own fault for not assimilating.  It blows for them but it shows what following laws and accepting responsibility is all about.  If they have family here, what is the problem?

5 million children without parents.

That's a severe crisis.   Crime.  Disease.  Starving children dead on the freeway.  Worldwide criticism.  Violent confrontations as some parent choose to shoot it out instead of returning to mexico.  Milllions wander the US avoiding detection. A real mess.  Would make katrina look like a nice game of SimCity.

cap, pretend you're the cop knocking on the door and shipping the 2 parents back to tijuana.  What do you do with the 5-day old infant in the crib?

[OzmO]

Tell them that mom and dad should have become citizens in the 20 years prior.  It is a family problem.  Them not speaking English is their own fault for not assimilating.  It blows for them but it shows what following laws and accepting responsibility is all about.  If they have family here, what is the problem?

Yeah, oh boy, that's make lots of sense. 

Yeah.  let's explain to a 5-year boy all that.  LET MAKE THE BOY PAY AND LEARN HIS LESSON.     OMFG.

You think we should intern American born muslims too?

[Cap]

5 million children without parents.

That's a severe crisis.   Crime.  Disease.  Starving children dead on the freeway.  Worldwide criticism.  Violent confrontations as some parent choose to shoot it out instead of returning to mexico.

cap, pretend you're the cop knocking on the door and shipping the 2 parents back to tijuana.  What do you do with the 5-day old infant in the crib?

You call Family Services and have them pick the kid up.  I have no discretion at that point.  It seems that many are under the assumption that many of these kids are so far away from 18 years old that they are S.O.L.

Yeah, oh boy, that's make lots of sense. 

Yeah.  let's explain to a 5-year boy all that.  LET MAKE THE BOY PAY AND LEARN HIS LESSON.     OMFG.

You think we should intern American born muslims too?

No, his parents learn the lesson about LAW.  If there is family, the child stays with them.

[240 is Back]

You call Family Services and have them pick the kid up.  I have no discretion at that point.  It seems that many are under the assumption that many of these kids are so far away from 18 years old that they are S.O.L.
 No, his parents learn the lesson about LAW.  If there is family, the child stays with them.

You cannot grasp the insane crisis - and the hit to the economy - that would result from 5 millino children becoming wards of the state.

cap86, i like you man.  But think about it.  They don't have 5 million places for these kids to go.  You can't adopt out too many 13 or 15 year old children.  Babies, okay.  But high schoolers?

And NO PARENT will leave a country, leaving his/her kid behind.  They won't.  You'll have 100% noncompliance from every parent.  I KNOOOOW you don't have kids, or you wouldn't consider this an option.  No one will listen.

I agree the immigrants are a probalem.  but IMO the solution is to close the border, and deal with who is here.

[OzmO]

It is a BIG problem.  No easy answers so far.

[chaos]

You cannot grasp the insane crisis - and the hit to the economy - that would result from 5 millino children becoming wards of the state.

cap86, i like you man.  But think about it.  They don't have 5 million places for these kids to go.  You can't adopt out too many 13 or 15 year old children.  Babies, okay.  But high schoolers?

And NO PARENT will leave a country, leaving his/her kid behind.  They won't.  You'll have 100% noncompliance from every parent.  I KNOOOOW you don't have kids, or you wouldn't consider this an option.  No one will listen.

I agree the immigrants are a probalem.  but IMO the solution is to close the border, and deal with who is here.

5 mil would not become ward of the state, stay with legal family or friends willing or go back with their parents......not alot of options, but we didn't put them in this predicament, and I for one, don't feel I should foot the bill for their parents being criminals.

[OzmO]

5 mil would not become ward of the state, stay with legal family or friends willing or go back with their parents......not alot of options, but we didn't put them in this predicament, and I for one, don't feel I should foot the bill for their parents being criminals.

we kind of did indirectly by not "really" enforcing immigration laws.

[240 is Back]

5 mil would not become ward of the state, stay with legal family or friends willing or go back with their parents......not alot of options, but we didn't put them in this predicament, and I for one, don't feel I should foot the bill for their parents being criminals.

If only 20% of them do - you have 1,000,000 kids homeless.   Katrina II.

[chaos]

If only 20% of them do - you have 1,000,000 kids homeless.   Katrina II.

that is not an option..get it? You don't offer to pay for raising these kids. If they want to stay with legal friends/family fine, great. If not then see ya later.
As simple as I can get.

I agree Ozmo, we've avoided these laws too long. They should be enforced , harshly.

[MM2K]

Nobody is going to deport 12 million people, and the restrictionist right is not doing anybody a favor by immersing themselves in that utopian dream. Im a globalist conservative, and I dont know who irratates me more, democrats, or the restrictionist right. Whenever you have a cut that is bleeding, you first need to stop the bleeding, THEN deal with the scar. In a perfect political world in which globalist conservatives were ruling Congress, we would first show the people that the government could get the immigration problem under control. We would start to build a fence and put more security at the border. But what is atleast as crucial is that we would create a visa program that would allow foreign workers to easily obtain a visa so that they could come and work. One of the big keys to stopping illegal immigration is that you have to make legal immigration just as economically beneficial. You have to make it easier for companies to issue out more visas.

After 4 years of significant improvements on immigration and with great progress on the fence, THEN we would deal with the problem of naturalizing the illegals who are already here. The bill actually does an overall good job on that part. What concerns me about the bill is that I dont think it does a good job of discouraging future illegal immigration.

But you are not going to deport 12 million people. When you deport people, you dont just seize them, stick them in a plane and ship them out to thier country of origin. There is a procedure that has to be followed. You have to arrest them, process them, and detain them. We dont have the resources for that. We would have to build a prison system that is 4 times as large as what we would have now. It would be prohibitively  expensive and it would be a humanitarian disaster. Lou Dobbs and the rest of the restrictionist right needs to stop the utopianism and stop acting like children.

[Dos Equis]

I think I'm beginning to understand BUSH's immigration proposal....

here's the thing:  we have 12 million or so illegal immigrants with perhaps upward of 5 million children born in the United States who by the 14th amendment of the United States are US citizens. 

-  If we deport the parents we become the first country to deport it's own citizens

-  If the children stay and the parents go, we burden our aid system, foster parents etc..., and separate families.  of course this isn't the choice the parents will make I'm sure. 

Combine that with the economic fall out of 12 million under paid workers leaving the US and you can see why the government has suggested what it has.

Lot of assumptions here Ozmo:

- Who's to say illegals will abandon their kids?

- Do we really know how many of these illegals work for less than minimum wage?

- Aren't illegals a burden on the health care, criminal justice, and tax systems? 

[OzmO]

Lot of assumptions here Ozmo:

- Who's to say illegals will abandon their kids?

- Do we really know how many of these illegals work for less than minimum wage?

- Aren't illegals a burden on the health care, criminal justice, and tax systems? 

I'm not saying anyone would abandon their kids.  All I'm saying is there would be only 2 outcomes and innocent children who are US citizens ultimately pay the price.

1.  They leave their kids here and tax our aid system
2.  They take their kids with them and we become the first nation to deport it's on citizens.


As you and i might not know how many work for less than minimum wage, it is a fact that these 12 million illegals are a BIG factor in our economy and if they all of a sudden leave it will cause great harm  to our economy. 

[OzmO]

Nobody is going to deport 12 million people, and the restrictionist right is not doing anybody a favor by immersing themselves in that utopian dream. Im a globalist conservative, and I dont know who irratates me more, democrats, or the restrictionist right. Whenever you have a cut that is bleeding, you first need to stop the bleeding, THEN deal with the scar. In a perfect political world in which globalist conservatives were ruling Congress, we would first show the people that the government could get the immigration problem under control. We would start to build a fence and put more security at the border. But what is atleast as crucial is that we would create a visa program that would allow foreign workers to easily obtain a visa so that they could come and work. One of the big keys to stopping illegal immigration is that you have to make legal immigration just as economically beneficial. You have to make it easier for companies to issue out more visas.

After 4 years of significant improvements on immigration and with great progress on the fence, THEN we would deal with the problem of naturalizing the illegals who are already here. The bill actually does an overall good job on that part. What concerns me about the bill is that I dont think it does a good job of discouraging future illegal immigration.

But you are not going to deport 12 million people. When you deport people, you dont just seize them, stick them in a plane and ship them out to thier country of origin. There is a procedure that has to be followed. You have to arrest them, process them, and detain them. We dont have the resources for that. We would have to build a prison system that is 4 times as large as what we would have now. It would be prohibitively  expensive and it would be a humanitarian disaster. Lou Dobbs and the rest of the restrictionist right needs to stop the utopianism and stop acting like children.

i like many of the things you said there.

[Camel Jockey]

No path to shit until the fucks pay up and if they don't then it's deportation time.

Build that fence and put down a few million land mines and turrets withs heavy machine guns to mow down any mexican.

[loco]

Funny how some of you keep calling these poor people criminals when it is your government that welcomed them and still allows them to come in for their cheap labor and to help maintain your comfy life style. All these poor people are doing is surviving and feeding their families.

If the US had a major economic crisis and Mexico was rolling in money and became the land of opportunity, would you not cross the border illegally into Mexico to get jobs there to feed your starving wife and children?  Getting permanent residence and citizenship in the US is a lengthy process.  These people don't have the time for all the bureaucracy.  They are in survival mode.  Some of them will rather be shot trying to cross the border illegally to quickly get a job and get money to feed their family.

BTW, if you deport them all, they'll just sit down in Mexico, enjoy a beer, plan their way back across the border and they'll be back in the US within a week.

[egj13]

I think I'm beginning to understand BUSH's immigration proposal....

here's the thing:  we have 12 million or so illegal immigrants with perhaps upward of 5 million children born in the United States who by the 14th amendment of the United States are US citizens. 

-  If we deport the parents we become the first country to deport it's own citizens

-  If the children stay and the parents go, we burden our aid system, foster parents etc..., and separate families.  of course this isn't the choice the parents will make I'm sure. 

Combine that with the economic fall out of 12 million under paid workers leaving the US and you can see why the government has suggested what it has.

Why do you call it Bush's and not Kennedy/McCain's which are the authors?

[OzmO]

Funny how some of you keep calling these poor people criminals when it is your government that welcomed them and still allows them to come in for their cheap labor and to help maintain your comfy life style. All these poor people are doing is surviving and feeding their families.

If the US had a major economic crisis and Mexico was rolling in money and became the land of opportunity, would you not cross the border illegally into Mexico to get jobs there to feed your starving wife and children?  Getting permanent residence and citizenship in the US is a lengthy process.  These people don't have the time for all the bureaucracy.  They are in survival mode.  Some of them will rather be shot trying to cross the border illegally to quickly get a job and get money to feed their family.

BTW, if you deport them all, they'll just sit down in Mexico, enjoy a beer, plan their way back across the border and they'll be back in the US within a week.

Good points here.

People easily ignore the fact we've turned a blind eye to this for years.   Deporting them would cause WAY too many problems and would be tragic to both the Children and our economy.

[OzmO]

Why do you call it Bush's and not Kennedy/McCain's which are the authors?

I donno man.  I forgot who came up with the idea when i posted it, but because BUSH is the highest profile person pushing the idea i named him in my post.   I'm not criticizing BUSH in this case. 

He is trying to find a solution without going to war or persecuting someone.  So in my mind he's actually doing something right.