No such thing as an Atheist?

[Necrosis]

if he was eternal how could he create .. creation is a temporal event.

please...

christianity is based on pagan myth and borrowed stories, this is fact...

there are also numerous contradictions many on this forum have posted....

also how could god, know everything yet be omibenevolent? wouldnt he know the fate of the individuals before he creates them?

philosophically and omni everything god makes no sense whatsoever..

there are many logical contradictions like the two i posted above..


william lane craig is a theist philosopher(christian), his beleif is that god is temporal, a much more logical conclusion.

[Butterbean]

if he was eternal how could he create .. creation is a temporal event.

Hi usmoke!  I guess I don't understand what one has to do w/the other here? 

christianity is based on pagan myth and borrowed stories, this is fact...

What are your references for this?  And why do you accept them as true?

also how could god, know everything yet be omibenevolent? wouldnt he know the fate of the individuals before he creates them?

philosophically and omni everything god makes no sense whatsoever..

I may have missed the post or reference regarding "omnibenevolence."  Where are we getting that and what is your definition of that word Usmoke?

[OzmO]

Please cite some references that are biblical and contextually adherent to your point.
It would be nice if you could quote scripture to validate these characteristics in context here.

Well, Moses did order the death of 3000 people.  Do you know what for?

32:19  And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

32:27  And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour

32:28  And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Then after all that God's blood thirst is not satisfied.  So he plaques them and good 'ole Aaron suffers not.

32:35  And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not criticizing God.  I'm refuting this account of God.

This is not divinity.  Whether it's his right or not, moral accountability exist the moment you tell someone they are forbidden to do something.  And by his blood thrity example he is a hypocrite.

really, what happened here is Moses used "God" as justification for his actions and history has written it as "God" telling him.  Very much like the justification of violence in the name of GOd through out history.  Moses should be tried as a war criminal.

[Camel Jockey]

Atheists means non belief in super natural things and figures.

These creationists are fucking morons. It is pointless to try and reason with them, as doing so gives them very attention they fucking crave.

Keep preaching fallacies.. My favorite one is morals coming from faith.. hahaha what a fucking joke.

[Butterbean]

Well, Moses did order the death of 3000 people.  Do you know what for?

Idolatry

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not criticizing God.  I'm refuting this account of God.

Then why did you say this:

Then after all that God's blood thirst is not satisfied.  So he plaques them and good 'ole Aaron suffers not.

Did you mean Moses' blood thirst?

This is not divinity.  Whether it's his right or not, moral accountability exist the moment you tell someone they are forbidden to do something.  And by his blood thrity example he is a hypocrite.

Are you saying that they had not been told that idolatry was wrong yet and so were therefore not accountable for the sin of worshipping the calf?

[OzmO]

Idolatry

Exactly.

And why should 3000 children lose their fathers , 3000 wives lose their husbands becuase they got insecure after being freed as slaves and camped at a mountain? (not to mention the people who lost their lives) We all lose our way from time to time and these people had reason too and Aaron even helped them.

Then why did you say this:Did you mean Moses' blood thirst?

The account shows the suffering doesn't stop there.  He then plaques the rest of them.  This isn't Moses's blood thirst as he is doing it supposedly under "god's orders" .  so moses is either a self righteous blood thirsty liar or God is freaking evil.   I think Moses was just blood thirsty.

Are you saying that they had not been told that idolatry was wrong yet and so were therefore not accountable for the sin of worshiping the calf?

They certainly are accountable..... and how did they account for it?  They lost their lives, children lost their fathers and wives lost their husbands?   These "victims" didn't make others suffer, all they did was get insecure and make a calf of gold and for that they are butchered?  Aaron, under those orders, should have been killed too.   

It's obvious to me this is murder in the name of GOD. 

That's why this "bible" isn't the 100% word of God.   God is not a hypocrite, unless you identify him in the Bible.

[Necrosis]

Hi usmoke!  I guess I don't understand what one has to do w/the other here? 

What are your references for this?  And why do you accept them as true?
I may have missed the post or reference regarding "omnibenevolence."  Where are we getting that and what is your definition of that word Usmoke?

something that is eternal cannot act? action requires time. in eternity time doesnt exist, so actions cannot either. because for an action to occur it has to have a cause, cause is a temporal(time dependent) event.

as for all-loving(only wanting good things) god cannot know the future and create with only good intentions, if he knows the outcome of the individual. That obviously is wanting only good things.... as he knows bad things will happen to the individual..

also god cannot have wants(it implies imperfection), he wants somethin he doesnt have..also doesnt make sense....


i posted some pagan stuff a while back, ill have a look for it. but loco even agreed with me. christmas, the 25th or december, satan claus, the tree, and many stories in the bible are related to precluding pagan texts..

ill see what i can dig up...

i beleive it because its in older pagan scripture..

[OzmO]

From what i remember, during the council of the Nicea, they were trying to make Christianity attractive to pagans, that's where they came up with things like the communion of saints and Christmas which is the "festival of the Sun God".

[Necrosis]

From what i remember, during the council of the Nicea, they were trying to make Christianity attractive to pagans, that's where they came up with things like the communion of saints and Christmas which is the "festival of the Sun God".

yes, alot of the parables, stories etc are pagan in origin....

[loco]

i posted some pagan stuff a while back, ill have a look for it. but loco even agreed with me. christmas, the 25th or december, satan claus, the tree, and many stories in the bible are related to precluding pagan texts..

usmokepole,
I know that it was a while back and that you probably don't remember very well, but I never agreed that The Bible or that Christianity is based on ancient, pagan religions or myths.  I believe without a doubt that the Bible is the word of God and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

I did however agree with you that some of the Christian "Traditions" which you posted are based on ancient, pagan religions and myths, such as Easter eggs, the Christmas tree, etc.  And we owe that to the Roman Catholic Church.

[loco]

Exactly.

And why should 3000 children lose their fathers , 3000 wives lose their husbands becuase they got insecure after being freed as slaves and camped at a mountain? (not to mention the people who lost their lives) We all lose our way from time to time and these people had reason too and Aaron even helped them.

The account shows the suffering doesn't stop there.  He then plaques the rest of them.  This isn't Moses's blood thirst as he is doing it supposedly under "god's orders" .  so moses is either a self righteous blood thirsty liar or God is freaking evil.   I think Moses was just blood thirsty.

They certainly are accountable..... and how did they account for it?  They lost their lives, children lost their fathers and wives lost their husbands?   These "victims" didn't make others suffer, all they did was get insecure and make a calf of gold and for that they are butchered?  Aaron, under those orders, should have been killed too.   

It's obvious to me this is murder in the name of GOD. 

That's why this "bible" isn't the 100% word of God.   God is not a hypocrite, unless you identify him in the Bible.

OzmO, I do understand where you are coming from and how you feel when you read about "cruelty" in the Bible.  I disagree with you of course, but I do understand you.  I know that you and I have already discussed this, but I would like to know what your opinion is on capital punishment.

When a judge sentences a criminal to die for his/her crimes, why is the judge not considered a murderer?  When the state executes a criminal, why is the state not considered cruel or murderous?  Isn't it because the state and the judge are a "higher" authority, which can judge, condemn and execute a criminal?  Why would it be any different with God when God is the highest authority over all?

[Hustle Man]

yes, alot of the parables, stories etc are pagan in origin....

I think we have digressed from the main point which is; Is there a such thing as an Atheist?

Maybe we should focus on the different positions which are:

Atheist-Hold the position that either affirms the nonexistence of God or rejects any form of theism.

Agnostics-Claim that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of God or gods, therefore they are skeptics.

Christians-Believe in the existence of God and the authority of the
Bible. Most importantly the person and work of Christ.

[Necrosis]

I think we have digressed from the main point which is; Is there a such thing as an Atheist?

Maybe we should focus on the different positions which are:

Atheist-Hold the position that either affirms the nonexistence of God or rejects any form of theism.

Agnostics-Claim that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of God or gods, therefore they are skeptics.

Christians-Believe in the existence of God and the authority of the
Bible. Most importantly the person and work of Christ.

atheists either displace beleif waiting for evidence, or believe there is no god.

christians beleive there is a god.

both require faith, although atheism is more logical if you think about it.

they simply require proof. they also dont beleive in santa claus etc.... because theres no proof.

if there is no such thing as an atheist, then how can there be a theist?

to have the positive beleif that god does exist, would require you absolutely know he exists and would require omiknowledge... which no one has...

so if factual evidence is what you want to base beleifs on, then neither atheists, nor theists can exist.

the question itself is ludicris actually.

[Necrosis]

the article is a good one to spark debate on the nature of beleif systems..

but i feel the argument is extremely weak

[Hustle Man]

the article is a good one to spark debate on the nature of beleif systems..

but i feel the argument is extremely weak

Whether the argument is weak or not, there is a creator and I share the biblical
conviction that it is the fool who says there is no God (Ps. 14:1;
53:1).

After all is said and done, the wise of this world will be shown not to be so wise
after all.

[OzmO]

OzmO, I do understand where you are coming from and how you feel when you read about "cruelty" in the Bible.  I disagree with you of course, but I do understand you.  I know that you and I have already discussed this, but I would like to know what your opinion is on capital punishment.

When a judge sentences a criminal to die for his/her crimes, why is the judge not considered a murderer?  When the state executes a criminal, why is the state not considered cruel or murderous?  Isn't it because the state and the judge are a "higher" authority, which can judge, condemn and execute a criminal?  Why would it be any different with God when God is the highest authority over all?

hi ya loco!   

I don't think we can fairly compare a murderer to a person's choice as to how or who to worship.  With a murderer you have a unwilling victim.  We these people you don't .  So to kill them as a result of it right after the issuing of "thou shalt not kill" is a hypocrisy.  Not that God is a hypocrite, but he's identified as such in here, becuase it's really a war crime, or murder cover up in the "orders" from GOD. 

This is where i have many odds with what God's word is or is not in the Bible.  I believe the root to evil or definition is an act that produces an unwilling victim.   

Personally,  i don't think any person has the right to take another's life.  That's how i feel without being in the emotion of it.  If someone killed my daughter i would want to take that person's life, even though i believe it's wrong.  But that person, should just be cast out of our society.

[OzmO]

Whether the argument is weak or not, there is a creator and I share the biblical
conviction that it is the fool who says there is no God (Ps. 14:1;
53:1).

After all is said and done, the wise of this world will be shown not to be so wise
after all.

Speaking as a person who has a very strong belief in God.....   I see that as the hardest part of proving GOD's existence with the Bible.  I have a book that says my socks are God, therefore becuase the book says it is it must be true.

[Hustle Man]

Speaking as a person who has a very strong belief in God.....   I see that as the hardest part of proving GOD's existence with the Bible.  I have a book that says my socks are God, therefore becuase the book says it is it must be true. Sarcastic Christian how nice. 

Hmmm, I forgive you for the harmless sarcasm. Now on to your comment. Brother you don't have to prove that God exist simply because his title is in a book.  When I am finished, tell me if I have replied infutility and remember the book is his WORD and it was left for US (believers) to share what is in it!

Romans 1: 18-23
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, This is for Athiest and the like.
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. All of creation; birds, trees, flowers, etc.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. God is immutable
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Ergo Atheists and Agnostics.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Pantheism

Now to comment on the book containing the "sock god":I was really taken aback that a fellow believer would say such a thing. The bible is God's word for yesterday and today but only few can hear his call (spiritual call) the only way you can believe in the words of the bible is that God opened your eyes, gave you ears to hear and took out that stoney heart and replaced it with a fleshly one, please be careful mocking God's word, it is a gift to you it's your link to him and this is how he talks to you.

Hebrews 4: 12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Hebrews 11: 1-3
1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

This is the proof and it is only received by faith which is also an irrevocable gift (Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.) No, you can't prove the existence of God to anyone who does not have his Holy Spirit so stop trying to do so. We (believers are to share his WORD (the Bible) and the Holy spirit will do the rest.

We are encouraged to use the word  or bible (which can also be memorized) when sharing the gospel. See below!

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they (Atheist/ Agnostics) call on the one (God/Jesus) they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Example; Sharing the word or what is contained in the bible.

HM





   

[Butterbean]

Exactly.

And why should 3000 children lose their fathers , 3000 wives lose their husbands becuase they got insecure after being freed as slaves and camped at a mountain? (not to mention the people who lost their lives) We all lose our way from time to time and these people had reason too and Aaron even helped them.

The account shows the suffering doesn't stop there.  He then plaques the rest of them.  This isn't Moses's blood thirst as he is doing it supposedly under "god's orders" .  so moses is either a self righteous blood thirsty liar or God is freaking evil.   I think Moses was just blood thirsty.

They certainly are accountable..... and how did they account for it?  They lost their lives, children lost their fathers and wives lost their husbands?   These "victims" didn't make others suffer, all they did was get insecure and make a calf of gold and for that they are butchered?  Aaron, under those orders, should have been killed too.   

It's obvious to me this is murder in the name of GOD. 

That's why this "bible" isn't the 100% word of God.   God is not a hypocrite, unless you identify him in the Bible.

If we assume that God was the one that ordered the killing (and not Moses ordering it in God's name only), it shows to me that God takes sin more seriously than we do.  They were told prior to Moses coming down w/the tablets not to engage in Idolatry:

Exodus 20:1-5

And God spoke all these words:
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
"You shall have no other gods before me.
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.  You shall not bow down to them or worship them......"

These "victims" didn't make others suffer,

I don't know that we can say that for certain.  They are the ones who pushed Aaron to make the idol.  I don't know why he wasn't killed right away w/the others though.

[Butterbean]

something that is eternal cannot act? action requires time. in eternity time doesnt exist, so actions cannot either. because for an action to occur it has to have a cause, cause is a temporal(time dependent) event.

I believe that God transcends time and so doesn't need it to do anything.

satan claus,

hehehe

usmokepole,


I did however agree with you that some of the Christian "Traditions" which you posted are based on ancient, pagan religions and myths, such as Easter eggs, the Christmas tree, etc. 

agree 

[Butterbean]

Hmmm, I forgive you for the harmless sarcasm. Now on to your comment. Brother you don't have to prove that God exist simply because his title is in a book.  When I am finished, tell me if I have replied infutility and remember the book is his WORD and it was left for US (believers) to share what is in it!

Romans 1: 18-23
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, This is for Athiest and the like.
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. All of creation; birds, trees, flowers, etc.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. God is immutable
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Ergo Atheists and Agnostics.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Pantheism

Now to comment on the book containing the "sock god":I was really taken aback that a fellow believer would say such a thing. The bible is God's word for yesterday and today but only few can hear his call (spiritual call) the only way you can believe in the words of the bible is that God opened your eyes, gave you ears to hear and took out that stoney heart and replaced it with a fleshly one, please be careful mocking God's word, it is a gift to you it's your link to him and this is how he talks to you.

Hebrews 4: 12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Hebrews 11: 1-3
1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

This is the proof and it is only received by faith which is also an irrevocable gift (Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.) No, you can't prove the existence of God to anyone who does not have his Holy Spirit so stop trying to do so. We (believers are to share his WORD (the Bible) and the Holy spirit will do the rest.

We are encouraged to use the word  or bible (which can also be memorized) when sharing the gospel. See below!

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they (Atheist/ Agnostics) call on the one (God/Jesus) they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Example; Sharing the word or what is contained in the bible.

HM





   

Hustle Man, I'm pretty sure OzmO is not a "believer" in the way that you're assuming.  Pretty sure he's not a Christian....but he believes that a God exists.  It may not be the God of the bible though. 

OzmO I think you've shared what you believe but could you please briefly do so for me and HM?  Thanks OzmO

[Hustle Man]

Hustle Man, I'm pretty sure OzmO is not a "believer" in the way that you're assuming.  Pretty sure he's not a Christian....but he believes that a God exists.  It may not be the God of the bible though. 

OzmO I think you've shared what you believe but could you please briefly do so for me and HM?  Thanks OzmO

Yes, I assumed he was a fellow sheep until the sarcastic remark! Then he became suspect to me hence the long refutation.

P.S. OzmO, do you agree with anything that I wrote to you? If not could you identify those points?

[Dos Equis]

OzmO, I do understand where you are coming from and how you feel when you read about "cruelty" in the Bible.  I disagree with you of course, but I do understand you.  I know that you and I have already discussed this, but I would like to know what your opinion is on capital punishment.

When a judge sentences a criminal to die for his/her crimes, why is the judge not considered a murderer?  When the state executes a criminal, why is the state not considered cruel or murderous?  Isn't it because the state and the judge are a "higher" authority, which can judge, condemn and execute a criminal?  Why would it be any different with God when God is the highest authority over all?

Good questions loco.  I don't think there is a distinction between our criminal justice system as judge and God as judge.  In both instances, the person being punished is aware of the law (or command), willfully breaks the law, is punished, and there are innocent victims that suffer as a result of the punishment (e.g., the perpetrator's family and friends). 

[OzmO]

I wasn't intending to be sarcastic at all. I was only showing the logical difficulty in proving God's existence with the Bible.   

Hmmm, I forgive you for the harmless sarcasm. Now on to your comment. Brother you don't have to prove that God exist simply because his title is in a book.  When I am finished, tell me if I have replied infutility and remember the book is his WORD and it was left for US (believers) to share what is in it!
 

This is purely a belief and not based on any fact.  When "God" orders the death of 3000 people for losing their way right after he tells them not to murder is hypocracy and shows this God described has issues with anger.  That is among many reasons i don't believe the Bible as the 100% WOG.   Maybe 50%.  but this is a clear case of humans blaming their transgressions on "orders from God"  just like Jim Jones and just like David Curesh. 

Romans 1: 18-23
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, This is for Athiest and the like.
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. All of creation; birds, trees, flowers, etc.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. God is immutable
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Ergo Atheists and Agnostics.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Pantheism

you are assuming it applies to atheists when it doesn't directly say so and for atheists, they believe there is no god and are not suppressing the truth they are only saying what they believe.   You are indirectly accusing atheists of knowing God exists  and trying to suppress his existence.  that's the problem with most people...they try and translate too much rather than just look at the literal meaning adding nothing and taking away nothing.

Classic self righteousness run a muck.

However i do agree that a atheist is spiritually dormant.  An atheist is potentially the strongest believer in GOD,......IMO.

Now to comment on the book containing the "sock god":I was really taken aback that a fellow believer would say such a thing. The bible is God's word for yesterday and today but only few can hear his call (spiritual call) the only way you can believe in the words of the bible is that God opened your eyes, gave you ears to hear and took out that stoney heart and replaced it with a fleshly one, please be careful mocking God's word, it is a gift to you it's your link to him and this is how he talks to you.

hopefully you understand that i was making a point of logic and not being sarcastic now. 

God opened my eyes in a Christian church.  In fact God opened my so much i saw just how ridiculous organized religion can be and how it uses FEAR to control and manipulate it's members.  And this books of stories (the bible)  have been twisted and used over the ages to condemn, destroy, murder, conquer, and justify all acts of evil in the name of God.

God is inside all of us.  He's there anytime you call on him whether you believe in him or not doesn't change the fact he's there.  He is my confidence, he takes away my fear and lights the way.  I try an honer God every moment of the day and by every choice i make.  I don't always succeed of course.

Hebrews 4: 12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Hebrews 11: 1-3
1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

it really doesn;t matter to me how this creation all happened.  What's more important is living with God in yoru heart.  So if it was evolution or intelliegent design it doesn't really matter.

This is the proof and it is only received by faith which is also an irrevocable gift (Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.) No, you can't prove the existence of God to anyone who does not have his Holy Spirit so stop trying to do so. We (believers are to share his WORD (the Bible) and the Holy spirit will do the rest.

We are encouraged to use the word  or bible (which can also be memorized) when sharing the gospel. See below!

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they (Atheist/ Agnostics) call on the one (God/Jesus) they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Example; Sharing the word or what is contained in the bible.

These are all great points but again, you are proving it with a book that says it's true. 





 

 

[OzmO]

If we assume that God was the one that ordered the killing (and not Moses ordering it in God's name only), it shows to me that God takes sin more seriously than we do.  They were told prior to Moses coming down w/the tablets not to engage in Idolatry:

Exodus 20:1-5

And God spoke all these words:
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
"You shall have no other gods before me.
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.  You shall not bow down to them or worship them......"

Yet at the end of the day we have people being punished with their lives for losing their way and their families suffering.  The "God" identified seems over sensitive and prone to rage and over-reaction. 

Also, i find it funny that Aaron didn't get killed for this, but then again he is Moses's brother.