form and range of motion

[pugalist666]

.

[whitewidow]

in all the bb mags they say always say how important, range of motion and form are , but if you watch how alot of pros train  there form is horrible , is it all the gear ? does how you train not mean anything ?

Like who??? you should come down to my gym you would get a good laugh.

[thewickedtruth]

Just like anything else in sports. Form is the foundation you build on. Without good form, especially when you start to move heavier weights, you run the big risk of injury. RISK being the key word here. I always recommend that people new to training start with lighter weights and perfect THEIR form and then progress as needed instead of hitting the heaviest weights they can handle right off the bat. If you have shitty form and go to push some bigger weights, you'll pay for it eventually.

[whitewidow]

Just like anything else in sports. Form is the foundation you build on. Without good form, especially when you start to move heavier weights, you run the big risk of injury. RISK being the key word here. I always recommend that people new to training start with lighter weights and perfect THEIR form and then progress as needed instead of hitting the heaviest weights they can handle right off the bat. If you have shitty form and go to push some bigger weights, you'll pay for it eventually.

amen brother. form over weight anyday.

[whitewidow]

watch ronny coleman , barley moves an inch, he just bobs

his form is not that bad and it seems to work for him. you should come down to my gym funniest shit ever, I tried to bring a video camera in there and do a little recording but they stopped me immediately and told me I couldnt film.

[Luv2Hurt]

Just like anything else in sports. Form is the foundation you build on. Without good form, especially when you start to move heavier weights, you run the big risk of injury. RISK being the key word here. I always recommend that people new to training start with lighter weights and perfect THEIR form and then progress as needed instead of hitting the heaviest weights they can handle right off the bat. If you have shitty form and go to push some bigger weights, you'll pay for it eventually.

Very good post. 

The top dogs and advanced trainers who train with a shorter ROM have already built a major base.  The shorter ROM for them is working the muscle in the zone where they feel they are getting the best contraction while trying to keep a constant tension on the muscle.  Parts of the full range are not under tension so therefore they avoid this part.

But I feel a beginner and novice should first learn and use the whole range until they become more advanced.  Parts of the full ROM hit stabalizers and muscles other than the target muscle, but they need to be developed also in the novice.

[thewickedtruth]

Very good post. 

The top dogs and advanced trainers who train with a shorter ROM have already built a major base.  The shorter ROM for them is working the muscle in the zone where they feel they are getting the best contraction while trying to keep a constant tension on the muscle.  Parts of the full range are not under tension so therefore they avoid this part.

But I feel a beginner and novice should first learn and use the whole range until they become more advanced.  Parts of the full ROM hit stabalizers and muscles other than the target muscle, but they need to be developed also in the novice.

That's right. And if you end up developing a certain section of a  ROM very very well and turn around and go abit too deep, etc. you can end up in a world of shit because your stabilizers or particular muscle group being worked wasn't prepared for THAT type of movement or range there of. Kind like people that go to 90* on the bench. AWESOME tricep movement with SOME chest involvement but I GAURENTEE if that person ever goes deeper or touches bottom, that weight will seem as if it just doubled on them. Again partials have their place, especially if one is coming back from injury but if you're not injured or not working partials in to a total routine, you're just doing them for "joint protection" or whatever other bullshit excuse, STOP!

[trab]

Bertil Fox.. Check some film of him on U-tube. Heave HO!
But, if you watch CLOSELY he and Ronnie are in constant connection w/ the weight. They have to be or else.  They sling the heavy iron, but are in control. Hey you cant argue w/ the results.
It worked for THEM. Dangerous? Hell Yeah.

[Petrucci]

Bertil Fox.. Check some film of him on U-tube. Heave HO!
But, if you watch CLOSELY he and Ronnie are in constant connection w/ the weight. They have to be or else.  They sling the heavy iron, but are in control. Hey you cant argue w/ the results.
It worked for THEM. Dangerous? Hell Yeah.

yeah, i agree with you. The ROM may be short, but they always put the muscle in tension during all the exercise. I myself dont lock the arms on bench press anymore, because it kills my elbows. Other than that i go all the way down to the chest. So my ROM may be shorter than anyone with perfect form, but it works for me because i dont destroy my elbows and in fact, i feel my chest even more since i dont ever lock out ...Other exercise when i do the same thing is skullcrushers for example
 So perfect ROM might be good, but it doesnt work for anyone when the weight start to move up, sometimes because of pain on some joints
 

[Luv2Hurt]

That's right. And if you end up developing a certain section of a  ROM very very well and turn around and go abit too deep, etc. you can end up in a world of shit because your stabilizers or particular muscle group being worked wasn't prepared for THAT type of movement or range there of. Kind like people that go to 90* on the bench. AWESOME tricep movement with SOME chest involvement but I GAURENTEE if that person ever goes deeper or touches bottom, that weight will seem as if it just doubled on them. Again partials have their place, especially if one is coming back from injury but if you're not injured or not working partials in to a total routine, you're just doing them for "joint protection" or whatever other bullshit excuse, STOP!

Thats for sure, many people use a short range of motion and do partials because the cant properly handle the weight and this is an utter joke they will get very little if any development from this.

The weight must always pass through what I call the "sticking point" otherwise they are just fooling themselves.  But I just let them keep it up as they stay the same and I grow, so many of the clowns I see at my gym stop short of this sticking point cause they lift with their egos.

I think power lifters know all about the sticking point.

[trab]

I think power lifters know all about the sticking point.

Yup, to the point of obsession. Rack lockouts, board press, floor press, Bands....

Louie Simmons  re: How to get a big bench - "The faster you bring the bar down, the faster it goes up".

[!@#$%]

watch ronny coleman , barley moves an inch, he just bobs

I don't think that is the way he really trains, I think he's just showing off for the videos. I have a hard time believing he puts on a power-lifting suit every time he does squats. I could be wrong though.

[Arnold jr]

Very good post. 

The top dogs and advanced trainers who train with a shorter ROM have already built a major base.  The shorter ROM for them is working the muscle in the zone where they feel they are getting the best contraction while trying to keep a constant tension on the muscle.  Parts of the full range are not under tension so therefore they avoid this part.

But I feel a beginner and novice should first learn and use the whole range until they become more advanced.  Parts of the full ROM hit stabalizers and muscles other than the target muscle, but they need to be developed also in the novice.

I like this, well put. I think my form is pretty decent on most lifts, but over the past year or so I've started tweeking it a little on certain exercises...doing exactly what you're referring to in your post to keep constant tension on the muscle. Some lifts you can do this with, some you can't but with the ones you can, if you do it right, it can be even harder. I first started messing with this on incline press, I would still go all the way down, but the push up was not quite as far...at first this was harder to do then "regular" reps because your muscles don't get to sort of "relax" at the top point of the lift. I think this sort of thing can be useful but like mentioned you need to start with perfect "all the way" form to get started, and learn how your muscles are supposed to fell on a lift before you start incorporating varied techniques. It's also something that I wouldn't do every time...mix it up.

[whitewidow]

I don't think that is the way he really trains, I think he's just showing off for the videos. I have a hard time believing he puts on a power-lifting suit every time he does squats. I could be wrong though.

exactly. I hear he actually trains pretty light sometimes.

[Arnold jr]

exactly. I hear he actually trains pretty light sometimes.

Yeah, that's what Chad has lead everyone to believe in a recent interview in MD. True? Maybe, maybe not.

[pumpster]

Back to the question: does gear influence ROM? I don't think so but it's one of those perpetual theories that bounces around..

[Arnold jr]

Back to the question: does gear influence ROM? I don't think so but it's one of those perpetual theories that bounces around..

Does gear influence ROM? What, I don't get it? You lost me on this one.

[Luv2Hurt]

I first started messing with this on incline press, I would still go all the way down, but the push up was not quite as far...at first this was harder to do then "regular" reps because your muscles don't get to sort of "relax" at the top point of the lift.

Yep, me too, on really all pressing movements.  Really what we are doing is avoiding the easy part of the lift, by not locking out at the top, so it ups the intensity.  I just make sure to not make the ROM too short.

[busyB]

I am not sure how gear would affect ROM, I will leave that to the gear experts here....

Phil Heath has taken on the approach of Ronnie and does not use full range on most exercises. But I agree, everyone needs to work within their OWN ROM and what will hit the target muscle with the most intesity and without causing injury.

Case in point, I used be a stickler for full arm extension on preachers, rev grip pulldowns and bar curls. Over the years, my bicep tendon became very strained so now I have to use a shorter ROM to take pressure off the tendon. Results have been awesome because I can lift pain free! Bis are the biggest they have ever been.

Keep in mind with regards to newbie trainees that a lot of the shaking and floundering with free weights has to do with their nervous system getting used to the exercises/form as well as the muscles, tendons and ligaments.

And light to Ronnie is brutally heavy to most others!!

[pumpster]

Does gear influence ROM? What, I don't get it? You lost me on this one.

One of the stock unproven theories is that pros get away with less complete ROM (easier, according to the thinking) due to gear, don't have to work as hard whereas nattys have to "work harder" by doing full ROM.

[pumpster]

Case in point, I used be a stickler for full arm extension on preachers, rev grip pulldowns and bar curls. Over the years, my bicep tendon became very strained so now I have to use a shorter ROM to take pressure off the tendon. Results have been awesome because I can lift pain free! Bis are the biggest they have ever been.

I've used exactly this example-less than full ROM on preachers that leaves out the bottom portion's better, to me. A couple of good reasons:

-Doesn't hurt the tendon the way full reps definitely do at the bottom of the ROM. Proven reality.
-Eliminating the sticking point at the bottom where it's most difficult makes the rest of the exercise more effective.

[Arnold jr]

One of the stock unproven theories is that pros get away with less complete ROM (easier, according to the thinking) due to gear, don't have to work as hard whereas nattys have to "work harder" by doing full ROM.

OK, I understand what you're saying now...and no, I don't agree with this theory. Although gear helps with building muscles, no one can deny this fact, but muscles are still muscles, stimulation is still just stimulation, therefore the same basic rules applie, natural or not.

[trab]

If people spent less time worrying that someone built more beef than them because of drugs, and just
trained intelligently, finding what works best for them, they'd get bigger & stronger.
Lots of jealous, intellectually challenged, unmotivated, undisciplined guys WORK REAL HARD on reasons why they are not satisfied with their results in many of areas of life.

Cheating the range of motion can help experienced lifters here and there. Drugs or no drugs.
Watch some Bertil Fox clips off U-Tube. Outrageous.

[trab]

Check out Fox's form. I think he was seriously shortchanged in his time. Now he's doing time. But that was some thick symmetrical muscle.
There's a thousand ways to get to any destination. One way may be better for one guy than another.

[pumpster]

Check out Fox's form.

Similar to Schwarzenegger's. Myself i've come to believe in cheats that are slightly more under control, just enough to get the weight moving but all that matters is working the muscle. A very popular theory continually put out there on many BB boards is the idea that naturals work harder and that full ROMs are part of it, with no basis in fact.