Author Topic: Senate Vote on Gonzales Blocked  (Read 3344 times)

Dos Equis

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Senate Vote on Gonzales Blocked
« on: June 08, 2007, 05:50:12 PM »
We shall see if there is bipartisan support to force Gonzales out over a crime that never occurred. 

June 8, 2007
Senate set to take politically charged vote on GonzalesAttorney General Alberto Gonzales
WASHINGTON (CNN) — The Senate will hold a politically-charged vote Monday related to a no-confidence resolution in the embattled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

In a statement issued Friday, Sen. Charles Schumer, D-New York, an author of the no-confidence resolution, said if all senators followed their conscience, ‘this vote would be unanimous.’”

“However, the president will certainly exert pressure to support the attorney general, his longtime friend,” Schumer added. “We will soon see where people’s loyalties lie.”

The attorney general is under scrutiny by Congress over last year’s dismissal of eight U.S. attorneys.

Schumer’s statement is in reference to a procedural vote Monday on whether to proceed to a direct “no confidence” resolution.

Senate Republican leadership aides tell CNN most Republicans will vote against the motion, primarily because they view the resolution as politically motivated. Schumer heads the Senate Democratic Campaign Committee.

Last month, Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, predicted Gonzales would resign before facing a “substantial” no-confidence vote.

“I think that if and when he sees that coming, that he would prefer to avoid that kind of an historical black mark,” the Pennsylvania senator told CBS’ “Face the Nation” on May 20.

But a day after Specter’s comments, Bush reiterated his support in Gonzales and denounced the prospect of a no-confidence vote as “pure political theater.”

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/06/08/gonzales-to-face-no-confidence-vote-monday/

AE

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2007, 07:45:31 PM »
We shall see if there is bipartisan support to force Gonzales out over a crime that never occurred. 


The real crime is that such a light weight incompetetent was ever made AG in the first place. He right up there with Former FEMA Director "You're doing a great job Brownie".  :-\

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2007, 03:48:04 AM »
The real crime is that such a light weight incompetetent was ever made AG in the first place. He right up there with Former FEMA Director "You're doing a great job Brownie".  :-\

Ever notice how the most incompetent president in history surrounds himself with the MOST incompetent people..........Rumsfeld, Harriet Myers, Wolfowitz, Brownie, Alberto, etc

The apple doesn't fall far from Bush's retard tree.

Dos Equis

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2007, 11:48:51 AM »
The real crime is that such a light weight incompetetent was ever made AG in the first place. He right up there with Former FEMA Director "You're doing a great job Brownie".  :-\

He makes a terrible witness, but isn't anywhere a lightweight.  He has a very impressive background:

Prior to serving at the Department of Justice, he was commissioned as White House Counsel to President George W. Bush in January of 2001. Prior to serving in the White House, he served as a Justice of the Supreme Court of Texas. Before his appointment to the Texas Supreme Court in 1999, he served as Texas' 100th Secretary of State from December 2, 1997 to January 10, 1999. Among his many duties as Secretary of State, Gonzales was a senior advisor to then Governor Bush, chief elections officer, and the Governor's lead liaison on Mexico and border issues.

Prior to his appointment as Secretary of State, Gonzales was the General Counsel to Governor Bush for three years. Before joining the Governor's staff, he was a partner with the law firm of Vinson & Elkins L.L.P. in Houston, Texas. He joined the firm in June 1982. While in private practice, Gonzales also taught law as an adjunct professor at the University of Houston Law Center.

Among his many professional and civic activities, Gonzales was elected to the American Law Institute in 1999.
. . .

http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/gonzales-bio.html

gcb

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2007, 11:51:51 AM »
so he started to go down hill when he joined Bush  ;D

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2007, 12:01:10 PM »
so he started to go down hill when he joined Bush  ;D

 :)  Not really.  He has one of the top lawyer jobs in the country.  He'll have some law firm or law school offering him a cushy job whenever he steps down.  He'll earn some nice coin on the lecture circuit.  Write a book. . . .

Dos Equis

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2007, 11:14:15 AM »
Well, the Dems got one Republican vote.  Maybe it will be "bipartisan" afterall.   ::)

Jun 11, 2:05 PM EDT
Dems Push Monday Vote on Gonzales
By LAURIE KELLMAN
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee said Monday he will vote for a no-confidence resolution against Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said he's concerned like others in his party that the resolution, sponsored by Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y. and up for a test vote later in the day, was a Democratic effort to embarrass Bush and prompt Gonzales to resign.

But Specter has long said that Gonzales has exercised poor leadership on a host of issues, from the firings of eight federal prosecutors to the department's handling of wiretapping authority under the USA Patriot Act.

"If you ask Arlen Specter, do I have confidence in Attorney General Gonzales, the answer is a resounding no," Specter said during a news conference in Philadelphia. "I'm going to vote that I have no confidence in Attorney General Gonzales."

Gonzales showed no sign of stepping down, and Bush continued to support him.

"I am not focusing on what the Senate is doing," he said at a nuclear terrorism conference in Miami.

Despite Specter's decision and calls by five other Senate Republicans for Gonzales' resignation, no one was predicting that the symbolic no-confidence resolution would survive even the test vote Monday.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., recommended during private meetings early in the day that GOP senators not support the motion to proceed to a debate on the resolution itself, according to a source familiar with the talks who demanded anonymity because the discussions were private. Without the 60 votes, the Senate moves on to other legislation.

At a news conference in Sofia, Bulgaria, the last stop on a weeklong visit to Europe, President Bush reaffirmed his support for Gonzales, a longtime friend and legal adviser.

"They can have their votes of no-confidence but it's not going to make the determination about who serves in my government," Bush said Monday. "This process has been drug out a long time. ... It's political."
 
. . .

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SENATE_GONZALES?SITE=HIHAD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Decker

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2007, 12:12:23 PM »
It is a sad day in this country when the gaggle of republican 'yes-men' can't even object publically to a morally repulsive and anti-american Atty. Gen. like Gonzales.  He advocates torture, denigrates the Geneva Conventions standards, supports Big government spying on its citizens, eviscerates the fundamental right of Habeus Corpus...

This ultimate team player is an affront to any person considering themselves a conservative and/or a patriot.

He disgusts me and his own legal peers think he's an uninformed, anti-constitutional hack.

http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.com/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2007/gonzoad.pdf





Dos Equis

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2007, 12:45:59 PM »
It is a sad day in this country when the gaggle of republican 'yes-men' can't even object publically to a morally repulsive and anti-american Atty. Gen. like Gonzales.  He advocates torture, denigrates the Geneva Conventions standards, supports Big government spying on its citizens, eviscerates the fundamental right of Habeus Corpus...

This ultimate team player is an affront to any person considering themselves a conservative and/or a patriot.

He disgusts me and his own legal peers think he's an uninformed, anti-constitutional hack.

http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.com/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2007/gonzoad.pdf


You didn't mention firing U.S. Attorneys to interfere with legitimate criminal investigations.   :)  That was the smokescreen for this witch hunt.  The hearings and this no-confidence vote has nothing to do with the firing of U.S Attorneys and everything to do with all of the things you mentioned. 

Decker

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2007, 01:29:16 PM »
You didn't mention firing U.S. Attorneys to interfere with legitimate criminal investigations.   :)  That was the smokescreen for this witch hunt.  The hearings and this no-confidence vote has nothing to do with the firing of U.S Attorneys and everything to do with all of the things you mentioned. 
Jeez Beach Bum, this guy Gonzales is a witch.

He should be hunted.

He is everything an american atty. gen. should not be:  an advocate of banana republic politics, an inveterate yes man, and an enemy of the US Constitution.

If that kind of government official belongs heading the US Justice Department, then you and I part company on this topic.

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2007, 01:34:44 PM »
The vote means as much as withdrawal time in Iraq.  My man bush will keep who he wants in his administration, as he should.
Benjamin Pearson-Pedo

Dos Equis

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2007, 01:42:25 PM »
Jeez Beach Bum, this guy Gonzales is a witch.

He should be hunted.

He is everything an american atty. gen. should not be:  an advocate of banana republic politics, an inveterate yes man, and an enemy of the US Constitution.

If that kind of government official belongs heading the US Justice Department, then you and I part company on this topic.

I typically don't demonize people with whom I have political disagreements.  I save that venom for tobacco companies . . . and those trying to raise my taxes.  :)  Reminds me of the old article I saved from the Clinton years (Maybe "Evil One" Is Just Wrong):   http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149392.0

I'm only talking about the hearings and this vote.  I don't believe the hearings and the vote, and all of my taxpayer funds, have anything to do with fired U.S. Attorneys.  They used those firings as a vehicle to hang Gonzales over "the torture memo," etc.   

Decker

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2007, 01:51:53 PM »
I typically don't demonize people with whom I have political disagreements.  I save that venom for tobacco companies . . . and those trying to raise my taxes.  :)  Reminds me of the old article I saved from the Clinton years (Maybe "Evil One" Is Just Wrong):   http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149392.0

I'm only talking about the hearings and this vote.  I don't believe the hearings and the vote, and all of my taxpayer funds, have anything to do with fired U.S. Attorneys.  They used those firings as a vehicle to hang Gonzales over "the torture memo," etc.   
He advocates positions that are anti-american. 

I'm not demonizing him, I'm calling a spade a spade.  His moral vacuity and incompetence have sown his reputation.

Unless of course state sponsored torture is in the customs and traditions of America.

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2007, 02:04:58 PM »
He advocates positions that are anti-american. 

I'm not demonizing him, I'm calling a spade a spade.  His moral vacuity and incompetence have sown his reputation.

Unless of course state sponsored torture is in the customs and traditions of America.

You called him a "witch" that "should be hunted."  Sounds like demonizing to me. 

If he advocated state sponsored torture the Senate should have taken action.  Instead, they abused their power by holding circus hearings, hiring one of the most expensive law firms in the country, and are now wasting taxpayer dollars debating this resolution:

"Expressing the sense of the Senate that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales no longer holds the confidence of the Senate and of the American people."

What a farce. 

You can watch the vote here:
http://www.cspan.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

Dos Equis

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2007, 04:19:08 PM »
Down in flames. 

Republicans block Gonzales 'no confidence' vote
POSTED: 6:48 p.m. EDT, June 11, 2007
Story Highlights• NEW: Procedural vote on Gonzales "no confidence" resolution fails 53-30
• Backers needed 60 votes to move to final vote on measure
• Democrats dared Republican senators to support unpopular attorney general
• President Bush decried measure as a political move, vowed to stay with Gonzales
Adjust font size:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Republicans blocked the Senate's no-confidence vote on Attorney General Alberto Gonzales Monday, rejecting a symbolic Democratic effort to prod him from office despite blistering criticism from lawmakers in both parties.

The 53-38 vote to move the resolution to full debate fell seven short of the 60 required. In bringing the matter up, Democrats dared Republicans to vote their true feelings about an attorney general who has alienated even the White House's strongest defenders by bungling the firings of federal prosecutors and claiming not to recall the details.

Republicans did not defend him, but most voted against moving the resolution ahead.

Short of impeachment, Congress has no authority to oust a Cabinet member, but Democrats were trying anew to give him a push. Gonzales dismissed the rhetorical ruckus on Capitol Hill, and President Bush continued to stand by his longtime friend and legal adviser.

"They can have their votes of no confidence, but it's not going to make the determination about who serves in my government," Bush said in Sofia, Bulgaria, the last stop on a weeklong visit to Europe.

"This process has been drug out a long time," Bush added. "It's political."

The attorney general said he was paying no attention to the rhetoric on Capitol Hill.

"I am not focusing on what the Senate is doing," Gonzales said at a nuclear terrorism conference in Miami. "I am going to be focusing on what the American people expect of the attorney general of the United States and this great Department of Justice."

In addition to the controversy over fired prosecutors, lawmakers of both parties have long complained that Gonzales allowed Justice to violate civil liberties on a host of other issues -- such as by carrying out Bush's warrantless wiretapping program.

. . .

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/11/senate.gonzales.ap/index.html

Decker

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2007, 06:40:55 AM »
You called him a "witch" that "should be hunted."  Sounds like demonizing to me. 

If he advocated state sponsored torture the Senate should have taken action.  Instead, they abused their power by holding circus hearings, hiring one of the most expensive law firms in the country, and are now wasting taxpayer dollars debating this resolution:

"Expressing the sense of the Senate that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales no longer holds the confidence of the Senate and of the American people."

What a farce. 

You can watch the vote here:
http://www.cspan.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2
I'm making a point in calling him a 'witch'...you know that.

As for 'wasting tax dollars' to do the vote, that's some selective sense of economy that you have considering the Iraq boondoggle.  The votes are not there to impeach the attorney general b/c the republican party is a spineless rubberstamp party.  See:

Republicans block Gonzales 'no confidence' vote

Republicans did not defend him, but most voted against moving the resolution ahead.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/12/senate.gonzales.ap/index.html

The democrats gave it the best shot possible to get rid of Gonzales and at least apprise the american public that the Atty Gen of the US is not up to the task.

The republican party is a disgrace.  The Bush administration is a disgrace and Gonzales is a crony of the worst kind.


Beach Bum do you support Mr. Gonzales's views of:

*State-sanctioned torture

*Big Government spying on its own citizens

*marginalization of the Geneva Conventions re treatment of prisoners

*elimination of the fundamental right of habeus corpus for suspects?

If you do, then we are opponents in this matter.

If you do not, then you must feel reservations about the man and the job he's done.

From your protestations, I almost concluded that you support Mr. Gonzales.

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2007, 08:50:01 AM »
I'm making a point in calling him a 'witch'...you know that.

As for 'wasting tax dollars' to do the vote, that's some selective sense of economy that you have considering the Iraq boondoggle.  The votes are not there to impeach the attorney general b/c the republican party is a spineless rubberstamp party.  See:

Republicans block Gonzales 'no confidence' vote

Republicans did not defend him, but most voted against moving the resolution ahead.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/12/senate.gonzales.ap/index.html

The democrats gave it the best shot possible to get rid of Gonzales and at least apprise the american public that the Atty Gen of the US is not up to the task.

The republican party is a disgrace.  The Bush administration is a disgrace and Gonzales is a crony of the worst kind.


Beach Bum do you support Mr. Gonzales's views of:

*State-sanctioned torture

*Big Government spying on its own citizens

*marginalization of the Geneva Conventions re treatment of prisoners

*elimination of the fundamental right of habeus corpus for suspects?

If you do, then we are opponents in this matter.

If you do not, then you must feel reservations about the man and the job he's done.

From your protestations, I almost concluded that you support Mr. Gonzales.

What point are you trying to make by calling him a "witch" that "needs to be hunted"? 

My opposition to this entire process has nothing to do with Gonzales.  I have a problem with the misuse of my tax dollars to support partisan political agendas.  It doesn't pacify me one iota that the money wasted on some overpriced lawyers, Congressional hearings, and that dumb vote is less than the money spent on the war.  It's still wasted money.  This entire fiasco had nothing to do with the firing of U.S. Attorneys.  Democrats proved this yesterday by spending 90 percent of their time talking about anything but the firing of U.S. Attorneys.  It was a partisan political witch hunt.   

Decker

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2007, 09:03:51 AM »
What point are you trying to make by calling him a "witch" that "needs to be hunted"? 

My opposition to this entire process has nothing to do with Gonzales.  I have a problem with the misuse of my tax dollars to support partisan political agendas.  It doesn't pacify me one iota that the money wasted on some overpriced lawyers, Congressional hearings, and that dumb vote is less than the money spent on the war.  It's still wasted money.  This entire fiasco had nothing to do with the firing of U.S. Attorneys.  Democrats proved this yesterday by spending 90 percent of their time talking about anything but the firing of U.S. Attorneys.  It was a partisan political witch hunt.   
Here's my point:  Sometimes there are monsters.  They don't hide in alleys or under your bed but they represent evil in plain sight.

Gonzales is evil.

Torture is evil.  Runaway big government power is evil.  Locking people up with no hearing is evil.  Those are all children of Gonzales.

Calling an evil man to account by our representatives is fine with me.  If ferreting out anti-american/constitutional governmental power players is a 'waste of your tax dollars', then waste away.  It is legitimate.

Remember the evil Al Capone was nailed by a tax lawyer for unpaid taxes instead of murder and racketeering.

Dos Equis

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2007, 10:29:43 AM »
Here's my point:  Sometimes there are monsters.  They don't hide in alleys or under your bed but they represent evil in plain sight.

Gonzales is evil.

Torture is evil.  Runaway big government power is evil.  Locking people up with no hearing is evil.  Those are all children of Gonzales.

Calling an evil man to account by our representatives is fine with me.  If ferreting out anti-american/constitutional governmental power players is a 'waste of your tax dollars', then waste away.  It is legitimate.

Remember the evil Al Capone was nailed by a tax lawyer for unpaid taxes instead of murder and racketeering.

I understand your point.  I think we're talking about different issues.  I'm worked up over the abuse of Congressional authority and waste of my tax dollars.  You think Gonzales is "evil" and Congress should use whatever means necessary to get rid of him. 

Comparing Gonzales to Al Capone?  That's pure hyperbole.  Gonzales hasn't committed a crime.  You and others disagree with his politics.  That doesn't make the man "evil" by a long shot.   

Decker

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2007, 10:57:14 AM »
I understand your point.  I think we're talking about different issues.  I'm worked up over the abuse of Congressional authority and waste of my tax dollars.  You think Gonzales is "evil" and Congress should use whatever means necessary to get rid of him. 

Comparing Gonzales to Al Capone?  That's pure hyperbole.  Gonzales hasn't committed a crime.  You and others disagree with his politics.  That doesn't make the man "evil" by a long shot.   
Hyperbole?  No, it is analogy:  the nation's highest lawyer is being compared w/ one of our nation's worst criminal offenders.  What's the similarity?  Both are evil men brought down (could be brought down) by acts not related to their infamy:  Capone for tax evasion and Gonzales for mishandling fed. atty firings/lying to Congress.

How many lives have been ruined or lost due to Gonzales's support for unconstitutional things like torture, loss of HC, and abuse of power (spying)?



I only "disagree with his politics"? 

Are you kidding me Beach Bum?  No, really. 

He is evil.

Was the evil empire--the Soviet Union--evil?  (asked and answered)

Didn't the SU jail people without a trial?

Didn't the SU torture suspects?

Didn't the SU spy on its own people?

All of those things are perfectly consistent with the "political views" of Gonzales.

He is evil for the same reasons the SU was evil.

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2007, 11:04:43 AM »
Hyperbole?  No, it is analogy:  the nation's highest lawyer is being compared w/ one of our nation's worst criminal offenders.  What's the similarity?  Both are evil men brought down (could be brought down) by acts not related to their infamy:  Capone for tax evasion and Gonzales for mishandling fed. atty firings/lying to Congress.

How many lives have been ruined or lost due to Gonzales's support for unconstitutional things like torture, loss of HC, and abuse of power (spying)?



I only "disagree with his politics"? 

Are you kidding me Beach Bum?  No, really. 

He is evil.

Was the evil empire--the Soviet Union--evil?  (asked and answered)

Didn't the SU jail people without a trial?

Didn't the SU torture suspects?

Didn't the SU spy on its own people?

All of those things are perfectly consistent with the "political views" of Gonzales.

He is evil for the same reasons the SU was evil.

Alberto Gonzales is not Al Capone.  Even the Democrats didn't go that far.  Al Capone was criminal.  He broke the law and was prosecuted for breaking the law.  Gonzales hasn't broken the law.  Even Democrats didn't accuse him of committing a crime during the hearings.

Comparing Gonzales to Al Capone and the Soviet Empire is hyperbole. 

You should read this commentary (I posted it a while a ago and provided a link the other day):

Maybe "evil one" is just wrong
Robert Reno - Newsday columnist

A caller to C-SPAN this week described President Clinton as "the most evil thing that God ever created." 

This carries one step further the theory advanced by conservative political butterfly Arianna Huffington that the president is not "a decent human being."  It fits neatly with the thesis of right-wing carnivore Emmett Tyrrell, editor in chief of the American Spectator, who says Clinton is "guilty of more high crimes and misdemeanors than Richard Nixon."

Interestingly, Lewis Lapham, the liberal editor of Harper's, agrees that Clinton is "a deceitful man," but his chief complaint is that the president is basically nothing either exotic or evil but merely "a Republican." 

Now, remember, the election is still more than four months away.  The more intemperate Clinton-bashers have a serious problem, which is:  Where do they go from here?

When you define yourself as running against the Antichrist and four years of Clinton vilification gets Bob Dole no more than maybe 37 percent or 38 percent in the polls, you don't give yourself much room for further development of Clinton as the candidate of the devil.

The Republican problem is that they have so saturated the debate with the idea that Clinton is evil and government is evil that they leave themselves naked to the question of how they have participated so intimately in a political system without being soiled and contaminated by the evil that flows like lava all around them. 

And how did the government get so wicked?  What party has, after all, held the White House and driven the bureaucracy in 20 of the last 28 years?

It was Oliver Cromwell who, in full generosity to his 17th century adversaries, wailed, "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

Judge Learned Hand said the Lord Protector's words should be chiseled "over the portals of every church, every school and every courthouse and, may I say, of every legislative body in the United States."  It's not a bad idea.

Those who would have us believe Dole is Christ's own candidate against wickedness would better spend their time beseeching us to consider whether the Democrats are not evil but merely mistaken -- about gun control, about tobacco interests, about Social Security, about school lunches, about the minimum wage, about women's rights, about aid to education, about Medicare, about government's role as protector of the environment, the consumer and the unfortunate. 

Then again, they tried that, didn't they?  Maybe playing the devil card is all that's left to them. 

Still, it makes for a campaign that is positively heathen in its ugliness and ungodly [in] its savagery, not to mention infantile in its excesses. 
 

Decker

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2007, 11:13:08 AM »
Alberto Gonzales is not Al Capone.  Even the Democrats didn't go that far.  Al Capone was criminal.  He broke the law and was prosecuted for breaking the law.  Gonzales hasn't broken the law.  Even Democrats didn't accuse him of committing a crime during the hearings.

Comparing Gonzales to Al Capone and the Soviet Empire is hyperbole. 

You should read this commentary (I posted it a while a ago and provided a link the other day):

...
An analogy compares 2 dislike objects finding some common ground btn the 2.  Gonzales is supposed to be the Chief law enforcement figure of the federal government.  He is compared with Capone, one of the most nefarious law offenders in our history.  The common ground besides their shared evil:  both might be undone by comparatively trivial matters.

The article you posted is worthless to my analysis.

I'm not simply claiming that Gonzales has to go b/c he's a republican.

That's absurd and best left to the province of the right-wing numbskulls that wore flip-flops and purple heart band aids at the 2004 republican convention.

Gonzales is evil b/c of his stand on our US constitution, torture, habeus corpus and spying.  That's a far cry from the pathetic bleating of 'class warfare' b/c the top marginal tax rate is over 28%.  One is evil and the other is economics.

Do you agree with me that torture, HC, spying are evil?

Reagan thought so in reference to the Soviet Union.  Why isn't Gonzales considered the same for the exact same stances.

Dos Equis

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2007, 11:32:28 AM »
An analogy compares 2 dislike objects finding some common ground btn the 2.  Gonzales is supposed to be the Chief law enforcement figure of the federal government.  He is compared with Capone, one of the most nefarious law offenders in our history.  The common ground besides their shared evil:  both might be undone by comparatively trivial matters.

The article you posted is worthless to my analysis.

I'm not simply claiming that Gonzales has to go b/c he's a republican.

That's absurd and best left to the province of the right-wing numbskulls that wore flip-flops and purple heart band aids at the 2004 republican convention.

Gonzales is evil b/c of his stand on our US constitution, torture, habeus corpus and spying.  That's a far cry from the pathetic bleating of 'class warfare' b/c the top marginal tax rate is over 28%.  One is evil and the other is economics.

Do you agree with me that torture, HC, spying are evil?

Reagan thought so in reference to the Soviet Union.  Why isn't Gonzales considered the same for the exact same stances.

Hyperbole is an exaggeration or overstatement (whether you us an analogy or not).  That's what you're doing. 

I don't condone torture (for the most part).  I have no problem with alien enemy combatants not having a right to habeas corpus.  I don't condone "spying" on American citizens without a warrant. 

Re torture:  What exactly are you talking about?  I think reasonable minds can disagree on precisely what constitutes "torture" and when, if ever, it is appropriate. 

On HC:  Haven't some judges/courts agreed with Gonzales on this?  And didn't Congress pass a law that did this very thing?  The Military Commissions Act.  So are Congress and those judges/courts who agreed with Gonzales evil too? 

Re warrantless wiretaps:  Didn't Clinton do the same thing?  Didn't some judges agree it was okay?  Are they all evil too? 

You disagree with political and legal decisions made by Bush and his AG.  You believe Gonzales is evil because you disagree with his decision making.  That is precisely what the article I posted discusses.  Definitely apropos IMO. 

Decker

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2007, 12:00:26 PM »
Hyperbole is an exaggeration or overstatement (whether you us an analogy or not).  That's what you're doing. 

I don't condone torture (for the most part).  I have no problem with alien enemy combatants not having a right to habeas corpus.  I don't condone "spying" on American citizens without a warrant. 

Re torture:  What exactly are you talking about?  I think reasonable minds can disagree on precisely what constitutes "torture" and when, if ever, it is appropriate. 

On HC:  Haven't some judges/courts agreed with Gonzales on this?  And didn't Congress pass a law that did this very thing?  The Military Commissions Act.  So are Congress and those judges/courts who agreed with Gonzales evil too? 

Re warrantless wiretaps:  Didn't Clinton do the same thing?  Didn't some judges agree it was okay?  Are they all evil too? 

You disagree with political and legal decisions made by Bush and his AG.  You believe Gonzales is evil because you disagree with his decision making.  That is precisely what the article I posted discusses.  Definitely apropos IMO. 

"To wait an eternity" is hyperbole.  Comparing the top law enforcement man w/ a top criminal on the grounds of trivial matters bringing each down is analogy.  If you want to call it hyperbolic, that's fine with me.

What is the definition of Torture?  That's same weak BS rationale that the Whitehouse used to pull their collective asses out of war crimes charges by having the Military Commissions Act operate retroactively by defining torture away. 

Torture is defined by the United Nations Convention Against Torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

Is that too broad?  Should we just outlaw thumbscrews and iron maidens?

RE HC, yes the republican congress that passed that legislation is composed of yes men doing the bidding of the Bush Administration.  Evil they are.

RE wiretapping, Clinton did spy but he got warrants.  There's moral relativism rearing its head again--"Bush is a-ok b/c Clinton did it too!"  ...no he didn't,only Bush has violated FISA--a felony.

You typed:  "You disagree with political and legal decisions made by Bush and his AG.  You believe Gonzales is evil because you disagree with his decision making.  That is precisely what the article I posted discusses.  Definitely apropos IMO."

Talk about moral relativism--you masquerade torture etc. as merely political/legal decisions.  That's a grotesque evasion of what's at hand.  Gonzales is evil b/c of torture, spying, killing HC--generally in effect he is anti-constitutional.

If torture, misuse of authority, and eviscerating HC are not evil, then what is?

Dos Equis

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Re: Senate set to take politically charged vote on Gonzales
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2007, 12:15:53 PM »
"To wait an eternity" is hyperbole.  Comparing the top law enforcement man w/ a top criminal on the grounds of trivial matters bringing each down is analogy.  If you want to call it hyperbolic, that's fine with me.

What is the definition of Torture?  That's same weak BS rationale that the Whitehouse used to pull their collective asses out of war crimes charges by having the Military Commissions Act operate retroactively by defining torture away. 

Torture is defined by the United Nations Convention Against Torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

Is that too broad?  Should we just outlaw thumbscrews and iron maidens?

RE HC, yes the republican congress that passed that legislation is composed of yes men doing the bidding of the Bush Administration.  Evil they are.

RE wiretapping, Clinton did spy but he got warrants.  There's moral relativism rearing its head again--"Bush is a-ok b/c Clinton did it too!"  ...no he didn't,only Bush has violated FISA--a felony.

You typed:  "You disagree with political and legal decisions made by Bush and his AG.  You believe Gonzales is evil because you disagree with his decision making.  That is precisely what the article I posted discusses.  Definitely apropos IMO."

Talk about moral relativism--you masquerade torture etc. as merely political/legal decisions.  That's a grotesque evasion of what's at hand.  Gonzales is evil b/c of torture, spying, killing HC--generally in effect he is anti-constitutional.

If torture, misuse of authority, and eviscerating HC are not evil, then what is?


I'm just trying to understand your position. 

Torture - I believe it was Jose Padilla (or might have been someone else) who claimed a cold cell with no blanket was torture.  Ozmo and I had a discussion the other day about whether being isolated in a cell with little or no human contact is torture.  I view torture as physical (and in some instances mental) pain.  I don't view making some prisoner sleep with no blanket with the lights on as torture.  I'm not even sure waterboarding is torture.  If you want to see an example of torture, review this:    http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=150753.0  I doubt this is the kind of stuff Gonzales advocated. 

The Military Commissions Act was by and large a party-line vote, but 12 Democrats in the Senate and 34 Democrats in the House voted for the bill.  Are they evil? 

I am not using moral relativism.  I didn't say it was okay for Bush to do it, because Clinton did.  I specifically said I don't condone warrantless wiretaps.  I'm addressing the "evil" issue.

My point in mentioning Clinton, Congress, and the numerous judges who agreed with Gonzales goes back to the article I posted.  Maybe Gonzales is just wrong.