Author Topic: The Smithsonian Intolerance  (Read 11591 times)

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2007, 10:45:49 AM »
But here again, you are basing your argument from a naturalist point of view, which I don't believe is proven any more than the existence of God (actually, I believe the proof of God is more credible)

Check this out, it's the definition of science per author Babu G. Ranganathan:

....Whoa!!!  I sure wish I could articulate things the way Ranganathan does so.  I linked the entire article if you are interested.  If you do read it, let me know what you think? 

http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/5862/creation.html
Science deals with naturalism and not supernaturalism.  We could discuss how many angels could stand on the tip of a needle, but like ID, that is just speculation on the supernatural...you know, imagination.

God can never be conceptualized by the human mind.  God can never be quantified.  How on earth does that jibe with the methodology of science? It doesn't.

You could posit Odin or Zeus as the god you refer to and be just as correct in your statement.

We are at an impasse to thoroughly explain this phenomenon, so it must have been God's work/will. 

That is not science.  That is Theodoric of York.

Ranganathan is not very eloquent in my view.  He is just misstating or misunderstanding what science is and what evolution is.

Here is a link for you.  http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&catID=2

Here are some excerpts from that link:

1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.

Many people learned in elementary school that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law. Scientists do not use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain.

3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.
This blanket dismissal of evolution ignores important distinctions that divide the field into at least two broad areas: microevolution and macroevolution. Microevolution looks at changes within species over time--changes that may be preludes to speciation, the origin of new species. Macroevolution studies how taxonomic groups above the level of species change. Its evidence draws frequently from the fossil record and DNA comparisons to reconstruct how various organisms may be related.

These days even most creationists acknowledge that microevolution has been upheld by tests in the laboratory (as in studies of cells, plants and fruit flies) and in the field (as in Grant's studies of evolving beak shapes among Galápagos finches). Natural selection and other mechanisms--such as chromosomal changes, symbiosis and hybridization--can drive profound changes in populations over time.
The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest-known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 100,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominid creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not--and does not--find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (144 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.

Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form from inanimate matter, then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way. If superintelligent aliens appeared and claimed credit for creating life on earth (or even particular species), the purely evolutionary explanation would be cast in doubt. But no one has yet produced such evidence.

It should be noted that the idea of falsifiability as the defining characteristic of science originated with philosopher Karl Popper in the 1930s. More recent elaborations on his thinking have expanded the narrowest interpretation of his principle precisely because it would eliminate too many branches of clearly scientific endeavor.


Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2007, 11:07:43 AM »
How so? 

I've told you why God, (inherently unquantifiable and anti-empirical), is not permitted in the scientific method as either a premise or a conclusion.

What's the matter with evolution exactly?

Evolution cannot explain the origins of life.  What is the provable scientific explanation for the origin of planet earth and the organism that started human life?  I haven't heard an explanation that isn't "inherently unquantifiable and anti-empirical."  The "science" portion of evolution essentially skips this part.   

What's the matter with evolution?  I have a several problems:

1.  See my first paragraph. 

2.  From a pure common sense standpoint, macroevolution doesn't make any sense.

3.  The enormous gaps in the evolutionary chain. 

4.  The theory of irreducible complexity makes macroevolution literally impossible.   

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2007, 12:03:35 PM »
Evolution cannot explain the origins of life.  What is the provable scientific explanation for the origin of planet earth and the organism that started human life?  I haven't heard an explanation that isn't "inherently unquantifiable and anti-empirical."  The "science" portion of evolution essentially skips this part.   

What's the matter with evolution?  I have a several problems:

1.  See my first paragraph. 

2.  From a pure common sense standpoint, macroevolution doesn't make any sense.

3.  The enormous gaps in the evolutionary chain. 

4.  The theory of irreducible complexity makes macroevolution literally impossible.   

Here's a link to a Scientific American article that addresses your concerns.  I will post the responses anyways:

7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.

The origin of life remains very much a mystery, but biochemists have learned about how primitive nucleic acids, amino acids and other building blocks of life could have formed and organized themselves into self-replicating, self-sustaining units, laying the foundation for cellular biochemistry. Astrochemical analyses hint that quantities of these compounds might have originated in space and fallen to earth in comets, a scenario that may solve the problem of how those constituents arose under the conditions that prevailed when our planet was young.

Creationists sometimes try to invalidate all of evolution by pointing to science's current inability to explain the origin of life. But even if life on earth turned out to have a nonevolutionary origin (for instance, if aliens introduced the first cells billions of years ago), evolution since then would be robustly confirmed by countless microevolutionary and macroevolutionary studies.

11. Natural selection might explain microevolution, but it cannot explain the origin of new species and higher orders of life.

Evolutionary biologists have written extensively about how natural selection could produce new species. For instance, in the model called allopatry, developed by Ernst Mayr of Harvard University, if a population of organisms were isolated from the rest of its species by geographical boundaries, it might be subjected to different selective pressures. Changes would accumulate in the isolated population. If those changes became so significant that the splinter group could not or routinely would not breed with the original stock, then the splinter group would be reproductively isolated and on its way toward becoming a new species.

Natural selection is the best studied of the evolutionary mechanisms, but biologists are open to other possibilities as well. Biologists are constantly assessing the potential of unusual genetic mechanisms for causing speciation or for producing complex features in organisms. Lynn Margulis of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and others have persuasively argued that some cellular organelles, such as the energy-generating mitochondria, evolved through the symbiotic merger of ancient organisms. Thus, science welcomes the possibility of evolution resulting from forces beyond natural selection. Yet those forces must be natural; they cannot be attributed to the actions of mysterious creative intelligences whose existence, in scientific terms, is unproved.

15. Recent discoveries prove that even at the microscopic level, life has a quality of complexity that could not have come about through evolution.

"Irreducible complexity" is the battle cry of Michael J. Behe of Lehigh University, author of Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. As a household example of irreducible complexity, Behe chooses the mousetrap--a machine that could not function if any of its pieces were missing and whose pieces have no value except as parts of the whole. What is true of the mousetrap, he says, is even truer of the bacterial flagellum, a whiplike cellular organelle used for propulsion that operates like an outboard motor. The proteins that make up a flagellum are uncannily arranged into motor components, a universal joint and other structures like those that a human engineer might specify. The possibility that this intricate array could have arisen through evolutionary modification is virtually nil, Behe argues, and that bespeaks intelligent design. He makes similar points about the blood's clotting mechanism and other molecular systems.

Yet evolutionary biologists have answers to these objections. First, there exist flagellae with forms simpler than the one that Behe cites, so it is not necessary for all those components to be present for a flagellum to work. The sophisticated components of this flagellum all have precedents elsewhere in nature, as described by Kenneth R. Miller of Brown University and others. In fact, the entire flagellum assembly is extremely similar to an organelle that Yersinia pestis, the bubonic plague bacterium, uses to inject toxins into cells.

The key is that the flagellum's component structures, which Behe suggests have no value apart from their role in propulsion, can serve multiple functions that would have helped favor their evolution. The final evolution of the flagellum might then have involved only the novel recombination of sophisticated parts that initially evolved for other purposes. Similarly, the blood-clotting system seems to involve the modification and elaboration of proteins that were originally used in digestion, according to studies by Russell F. Doolittle of the University of California at San Diego. So some of the complexity that Behe calls proof of intelligent design is not irreducible at all.

Complexity of a different kind--"specified complexity"--is the cornerstone of the intelligent-design arguments of William A. Dembski of Baylor University in his books The Design Inference and No Free Lunch. Essentially his argument is that living things are complex in a way that undirected, random processes could never produce. The only logical conclusion, Dembski asserts, in an echo of Paley 200 years ago, is that some superhuman intelligence created and shaped life.

Dembski's argument contains several holes. It is wrong to insinuate that the field of explanations consists only of random processes or designing intelligences. Researchers into nonlinear systems and cellular automata at the Santa Fe Institute and elsewhere have demonstrated that simple, undirected processes can yield extraordinarily complex patterns. Some of the complexity seen in organisms may therefore emerge through natural phenomena that we as yet barely understand. But that is far different from saying that the complexity could not have arisen naturally.
________________________ ____________

The end of the article presents a scathing indictment of creationists and ID proponents relative to science. 

The creationist's answer to any of your 4 questions is not science.  Stating that God must have done it in reference to the aetiology of anything is a provisional fairy tale with zero foundation in science.

I don't relish saying that.

But I'm not going to pretend that ID is thoughtful science when it isn't just to placate some group of people that want it to be science.

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2007, 12:16:36 PM »
Science deals with naturalism and not supernaturalism.  We could discuss how many angels could stand on the tip of a needle, but like ID, that is just speculation on the supernatural...you know, imagination.

God can never be conceptualized by the human mind.  God can never be quantified.  How on earth does that jibe with the methodology of science? It doesn't.

You could posit Odin or Zeus as the god you refer to and be just as correct in your statement.

We are at an impasse to thoroughly explain this phenomenon, so it must have been God's work/will. 

That is not science.  That is Theodoric of York.

Ranganathan is not very eloquent in my view.  He is just misstating or misunderstanding what science is and what evolution is.

Here is a link for you.  http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&catID=2

Here are some excerpts from that link:

1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.

Many people learned in elementary school that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law. Scientists do not use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain.

3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.
This blanket dismissal of evolution ignores important distinctions that divide the field into at least two broad areas: microevolution and macroevolution. Microevolution looks at changes within species over time--changes that may be preludes to speciation, the origin of new species. Macroevolution studies how taxonomic groups above the level of species change. Its evidence draws frequently from the fossil record and DNA comparisons to reconstruct how various organisms may be related.

These days even most creationists acknowledge that microevolution has been upheld by tests in the laboratory (as in studies of cells, plants and fruit flies) and in the field (as in Grant's studies of evolving beak shapes among Galápagos finches). Natural selection and other mechanisms--such as chromosomal changes, symbiosis and hybridization--can drive profound changes in populations over time.
The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest-known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 100,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominid creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not--and does not--find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (144 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.

Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form from inanimate matter, then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way. If superintelligent aliens appeared and claimed credit for creating life on earth (or even particular species), the purely evolutionary explanation would be cast in doubt. But no one has yet produced such evidence.

It should be noted that the idea of falsifiability as the defining characteristic of science originated with philosopher Karl Popper in the 1930s. More recent elaborations on his thinking have expanded the narrowest interpretation of his principle precisely because it would eliminate too many branches of clearly scientific endeavor.



 ::)

"If you're looking for truth, don't search within yourself....you're the one who's confused." - unknown

In my opinion, evolutionists are looking for truth within themselves. 

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2007, 12:52:31 PM »
::)

"If you're looking for truth, don't search within yourself....you're the one who's confused." - unknown

In my opinion, evolutionists are looking for truth within themselves. 
I know what you mean....man's ego, in interpreting things, always plays a warping role.  10 people can look at a tree and see it 10 different ways.  It's still a tree, but there are 10 opinions of its look, smell, feel etc.

Science deals with facts.  And then there is Truth.  Is there such a thing or are all truths provisional?

That is the topic of another thread.

Did you know that the truth is within you is not a good translation of the Bible?  It should be, "the truth is amongst you..."


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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2007, 01:18:43 PM »
I don't understand how people who are hostile towards Christianity stand by their statements like, "it's wrong for you Christians to impose your morals on others!"  ::)  or "you can't go around saying truth is absolute!  that's wrong!" 

both of these statements are self-contradicting, are they not?   ???

Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2007, 01:59:19 PM »
Here's a link to a Scientific American article that addresses your concerns.  I will post the responses anyways:

7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.

The origin of life remains very much a mystery, but biochemists have learned about how primitive nucleic acids, amino acids and other building blocks of life could have formed and organized themselves into self-replicating, self-sustaining units, laying the foundation for cellular biochemistry. Astrochemical analyses hint that quantities of these compounds might have originated in space and fallen to earth in comets, a scenario that may solve the problem of how those constituents arose under the conditions that prevailed when our planet was young.

Creationists sometimes try to invalidate all of evolution by pointing to science's current inability to explain the origin of life. But even if life on earth turned out to have a nonevolutionary origin (for instance, if aliens introduced the first cells billions of years ago), evolution since then would be robustly confirmed by countless microevolutionary and macroevolutionary studies.

11. Natural selection might explain microevolution, but it cannot explain the origin of new species and higher orders of life.

Evolutionary biologists have written extensively about how natural selection could produce new species. For instance, in the model called allopatry, developed by Ernst Mayr of Harvard University, if a population of organisms were isolated from the rest of its species by geographical boundaries, it might be subjected to different selective pressures. Changes would accumulate in the isolated population. If those changes became so significant that the splinter group could not or routinely would not breed with the original stock, then the splinter group would be reproductively isolated and on its way toward becoming a new species.

Natural selection is the best studied of the evolutionary mechanisms, but biologists are open to other possibilities as well. Biologists are constantly assessing the potential of unusual genetic mechanisms for causing speciation or for producing complex features in organisms. Lynn Margulis of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and others have persuasively argued that some cellular organelles, such as the energy-generating mitochondria, evolved through the symbiotic merger of ancient organisms. Thus, science welcomes the possibility of evolution resulting from forces beyond natural selection. Yet those forces must be natural; they cannot be attributed to the actions of mysterious creative intelligences whose existence, in scientific terms, is unproved.

15. Recent discoveries prove that even at the microscopic level, life has a quality of complexity that could not have come about through evolution.

"Irreducible complexity" is the battle cry of Michael J. Behe of Lehigh University, author of Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. As a household example of irreducible complexity, Behe chooses the mousetrap--a machine that could not function if any of its pieces were missing and whose pieces have no value except as parts of the whole. What is true of the mousetrap, he says, is even truer of the bacterial flagellum, a whiplike cellular organelle used for propulsion that operates like an outboard motor. The proteins that make up a flagellum are uncannily arranged into motor components, a universal joint and other structures like those that a human engineer might specify. The possibility that this intricate array could have arisen through evolutionary modification is virtually nil, Behe argues, and that bespeaks intelligent design. He makes similar points about the blood's clotting mechanism and other molecular systems.

Yet evolutionary biologists have answers to these objections. First, there exist flagellae with forms simpler than the one that Behe cites, so it is not necessary for all those components to be present for a flagellum to work. The sophisticated components of this flagellum all have precedents elsewhere in nature, as described by Kenneth R. Miller of Brown University and others. In fact, the entire flagellum assembly is extremely similar to an organelle that Yersinia pestis, the bubonic plague bacterium, uses to inject toxins into cells.

The key is that the flagellum's component structures, which Behe suggests have no value apart from their role in propulsion, can serve multiple functions that would have helped favor their evolution. The final evolution of the flagellum might then have involved only the novel recombination of sophisticated parts that initially evolved for other purposes. Similarly, the blood-clotting system seems to involve the modification and elaboration of proteins that were originally used in digestion, according to studies by Russell F. Doolittle of the University of California at San Diego. So some of the complexity that Behe calls proof of intelligent design is not irreducible at all.

Complexity of a different kind--"specified complexity"--is the cornerstone of the intelligent-design arguments of William A. Dembski of Baylor University in his books The Design Inference and No Free Lunch. Essentially his argument is that living things are complex in a way that undirected, random processes could never produce. The only logical conclusion, Dembski asserts, in an echo of Paley 200 years ago, is that some superhuman intelligence created and shaped life.

Dembski's argument contains several holes. It is wrong to insinuate that the field of explanations consists only of random processes or designing intelligences. Researchers into nonlinear systems and cellular automata at the Santa Fe Institute and elsewhere have demonstrated that simple, undirected processes can yield extraordinarily complex patterns. Some of the complexity seen in organisms may therefore emerge through natural phenomena that we as yet barely understand. But that is far different from saying that the complexity could not have arisen naturally.
________________________ ____________

The end of the article presents a scathing indictment of creationists and ID proponents relative to science. 

The creationist's answer to any of your 4 questions is not science.  Stating that God must have done it in reference to the aetiology of anything is a provisional fairy tale with zero foundation in science.

I don't relish saying that.

But I'm not going to pretend that ID is thoughtful science when it isn't just to placate some group of people that want it to be science.

I read it and it only addresses one aspect:  Behe's discussion of bacterial flagellum.  Behe talks about a lot more than flagellum. 

There isn't a whole lot of provable science in that link regarding the origins of life. 

Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2007, 02:01:41 PM »

Science deals with facts. 

Not always.  Science deals with facts and has theories when the facts aren't present, like the theory about the origin of life.  There are no provable scientific facts when it comes to origin of life. 

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2007, 06:44:20 AM »
Not always.  Science deals with facts and has theories when the facts aren't present, like the theory about the origin of life.  There are no provable scientific facts when it comes to origin of life. 
There are zero provable facts re ID...just imaginative storytelling with no foundation in science at all.

Science has posited theories for the creation of the universe based on mathematical analysis.

ID could never do that.

ID doesn't explain the origins of life...not in any meaningful scientific way.

ID is just mythmaking.

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2007, 06:47:15 AM »
I read it and it only addresses one aspect:  Behe's discussion of bacterial flagellum.  Behe talks about a lot more than flagellum. 

There isn't a whole lot of provable science in that link regarding the origins of life. 
Here's a link to a review of Behe's book.  It points out the standard ID errors the author makes.

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/22794;jsessionid=aaa5LVF0&e=14905&ei=NF47RYixJq7wRYeYnTE&sig=__sQOsonV8d2fDl6Q0_5dKmKcxMxg=?fulltext=true

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2007, 10:44:31 AM »
There are zero provable facts re ID...just imaginative storytelling with no foundation in science at all.

Science has posited theories for the creation of the universe based on mathematical analysis.

ID could never do that.

ID doesn't explain the origins of life...not in any meaningful scientific way.

ID is just mythmaking.

I was talking about science and evolution.  You said science deals with facts.  That's simply not true when it comes to evolution.  Evolution does not rely on science or facts when it comes to explaining the origins of life.   

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2007, 11:16:14 AM »
I was talking about science and evolution.  You said science deals with facts.  That's simply not true when it comes to evolution.  Evolution does not rely on science or facts when it comes to explaining the origins of life.   
By the way Beach Bum, I enjoy this talking immensely.

Science and Evolution and Facts:

According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses."

No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.
________________________ __________
So you see that science does utilize facts etc and inferences rationally related to those facts.  So your contention that evolution does not rely on facts is partially true but only to the extent that from existing facts, reasonable inferences can be drawn.  Which part of evolution do you find factually challenged?
________________________ ___________

"The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling."

"All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain."



Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2007, 12:14:42 PM »
By the way Beach Bum, I enjoy this talking immensely.

________________________ __________
So you see that science does utilize facts etc and inferences rationally related to those facts.  So your contention that evolution does not rely on facts is partially true but only to the extent that from existing facts, reasonable inferences can be drawn.  Which part of evolution do you find factually challenged?
________________________ ___________


Thanks Decker.  I always enjoy our discussions.  I really appreciate what you bring to the table. 

Among other things, the origins of life are factually challenged.  People can sit in a room and talk about mathematical formulas, theories, etc., but when it comes down to it there is no provable science that shows where the original organism (or planet earth) came from.  There is a "trust me" factor when accepting that some organism just appeared out of nowhere and spontaneously started to evolve.  It sounds remarkably like religion.   :)     

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2007, 12:25:12 PM »
Thanks Decker.  I always enjoy our discussions.  I really appreciate what you bring to the table. 

Among other things, the origins of life are factually challenged.  People can sit in a room and talk about mathematical formulas, theories, etc., but when it comes down to it there is no provable science that shows where the original organism (or planet earth) came from.  There is a "trust me" factor when accepting that some organism just appeared out of nowhere and spontaneously started to evolve.  It sounds remarkably like religion.   :)     

  I have no idea how old the earth is.  Don't have an opinion.    ::) 

Bum, why do you keep bringing up the origin/age of the earth when you don't have an opinion about it?

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2007, 12:33:17 PM »
Bum, why do you keep bringing up the origin/age of the earth when you don't have an opinion about it?

I have no idea how old the earth is and that isn't the subject of this discussion.  If you were following the discussion, you'd see we are talking about provable scientific facts supporting the origin of life. 

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2007, 01:00:02 PM »
I have no idea how old the earth is and that isn't the subject of this discussion.  If you were following the discussion, you'd see we are talking about provable scientific facts supporting the origin of life. 

Fair enough - perhaps my recall is off regarding comments about the age of the earth but you have repeatedly (in other conversations) mentioned the origin of the earth as you did again in this thread:

but when it comes down to it there is no provable science that shows where the original organism (or planet earth) came from.       

What point are you trying to make by stating that there's "no provable science that shows where the original planet earth came from?  That's all I"m trying to understand. 

I assume you're not suggesting that since we cannot, at present, definitively explain the origin that it must have been created by God (Christian God goes without saying) or you would have said that already.

I'm merely asking you to unpack and expand the statement and explain what point you're trying to make by bringing it up.

Thanks

Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2007, 01:35:33 PM »
Fair enough - perhaps my recall is off regarding comments about the age of the earth but you have repeatedly (in other conversations) mentioned the origin of the earth as you did again in this thread:

What point are you trying to make by stating that there's "no provable science that shows where the original planet earth came from?  That's all I"m trying to understand. 

I assume you're not suggesting that since we cannot, at present, definitively explain the origin that it must have been created by God (Christian God goes without saying) or you would have said that already.

I'm merely asking you to unpack and expand the statement and explain what point you're trying to make by bringing it up.

Thanks

Straw I was addressing Decker's comment that evolution is based on science and science is based on fact.  This is partly true.  One instance where it is not true is when looking at the origin of life.  Science has no provable explanation for this. 

I have previously raised the lack of scientific proof for the origin of life to highlight that this is a glaring problem with the evolution theory.  It actually requires faith to believe that our planet and organism suddenly appeared.  Does this lack of science prove the existence of God or that our planet was designed by something or someone?  No.     

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2007, 01:42:21 PM »
Straw I was addressing Decker's comment that evolution is based on science and science is based on fact.  This is partly true.  One instance where it is not true is when looking at the origin of life.  Science has no provable explanation for this. 

I have previously raised the lack of scientific proof for the origin of life to highlight that this is a glaring problem with the evolution theory.  It actually requires faith to believe that our planet and organism suddenly appeared.  Does this lack of science prove the existence of God or that our planet was designed by something or someone?  No.     

Who says that our planet and "organism"(?) SUDDENLY appeared?

Is that what you believe the theory of evolution suggests?


Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2007, 01:54:42 PM »
Who says that our planet and "organism"(?) SUDDENLY appeared?

Is that what you believe the theory of evolution suggests?



Sudden, gradual, fast, slow, whatever.  Regardless, the perfectly shaped planet and climate came from somewhere or something, along with the single celled organism that supposedly started life as we know it.  As I said, science doesn't prove where the planet or the organism came from.
     

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2007, 02:29:28 PM »
Sudden, gradual, fast, slow, whatever.  Regardless, the perfectly shaped planet and climate came from somewhere or something, along with the single celled organism that supposedly started life as we know it.  As I said, science doesn't prove where the planet or the organism came from.
     

 ::)

okay, I can see you're going off the rails quicker than usual today. 

Just to be clear (since you didn't respond to my question) - the theory of evolution does not suggest that the earth and "organism"(?) just suddenly appeared in it's present form.

I don't really have the patience today to bang my head up against Beach Bum brand logic so I'll leave you with a bit of levity:  http://www.metacafe.com/watch/135713/family_guy_the_big_bang/

you might also want to spend some time checking out this site:  http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/entire_collection/




Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2007, 02:36:10 PM »
::)

okay, I can see you're going off the rails quicker than usual today. 

Just to be clear (since you didn't respond to my question) - the theory of evolution does not suggest that the earth and "organism"(?) just suddenly appeared in it's present form.

I don't really have the patience today to bang my head up against Beach Bum brand logic so I'll leave you with a bit of levity:  http://www.metacafe.com/watch/135713/family_guy_the_big_bang/

you might also want to spend some time checking out this site:  http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/entire_collection/





 ::)  Thanks for sharing Cuzin' Earl.